Ask a Red, Second Edition

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Socialism, as Antilogic said in that thread, is any system in which the means of production are controlled by those who work it. (The assumption is that this is in itself an organisational principle, and not just a comment on the distribution of property at a given moment, so a society of independent farmers and artisans who own their land and workplaces as private property would not be considered "socialism".)

I got referred to! Yay! :D

In that thread, I was really hoping to see a divide between the classic market liberalism and socialist thought in the left-wing politics, but nobody wanted to debate that. I get frustrated in political debates, some with conservative family members, that equate all left-leaning politics with liberalism and socialism, which are used interchangeably.
 
In that thread, I was really hoping to see a divide between the classic market liberalism and socialist thought in the left-wing politics, but nobody wanted to debate that.
That's because liberals are all wussies. The revolutionary fist of a Communist and the bigoted, militaristic fist of the far-right beat them up every time.
 
Dear Reds,

How are goods priced under your favored version of redism?


Peace out,

Fiftyson
Whatever is convenient at any given time. In the absence of markets, "pricing" would just be a method of distributing goods, so any such construction would be entirely utilitarian. The "labour vouchers" discussed by Marx, Bakunin, et al. are the obvious model, but nothing's set in stone.

Are people from the professions - Doctors, Engineers, solicitors, etc part of the working class or middle class?
Depends on the position of any given professional in the process of production. It's not really possible to generalise within or between the professions (not least because there is no one Marxist theory of a "middle class/es"). Most of them can probably be considered to represent the labour side of the labour-capital relationship, although a good number will either sit in some intermediate position, or outside of it altogether, i.e. that they will be members of the middle classes.

To be entirely honest, it's not a question which I've given too much thought to, because what's significant in Marx (and he is in this very different from the Orthodoxy that was constructed after this death) isn't the working class as a positive category, as a "class-in-itself", but as a concious historical agent, a "class-for-itself", so head-counts of labour are significant more as indicators of the potential extent and influence of class-organisation, rather than for their own sake.

How many in the UK fall into "working class" under your definition. Same for middle class + upper class.
Guesstimating, I'd say that 90%/9%/1% would be reasonable numbers to work with, although perhaps under-estimating the number of workers and almost certainly over-estimating the number of capitalists. However, that's not a neat pyramid, with some of the 9% making more money and possessing higher status than some of the 1%, and even some of the 90% similarly "outranking" elements of the 9%- a teacher will make more than the average corner-shop owner, for example. (Any case of a member of the 90% "outranking" a a member of the 1% can probably be considered a fluke, though.) The key is the relationships which these positions in the process of production have to each other, not on the financial outcomes of membership of these groups.

I got referred to! Yay! :D

In that thread, I was really hoping to see a divide between the classic market liberalism and socialist thought in the left-wing politics, but nobody wanted to debate that. I get frustrated in political debates, some with conservative family members, that equate all left-leaning politics with liberalism and socialism, which are used interchangeably.
Well, we had a couple of clashes in the last few weeks, so I guess that we're all having a breather. ;)
 
What are the varying opinions on the middle class?
 
In Turkey, Liberal used as an insult for left-wing. If somebody did call me liberal i would be offended.

That's because liberals are all wussies. The revolutionary fist of a Communist and the bigoted, militaristic fist of the far-right beat them up every time.

While the second I assume is tongue-in-cheek, I'll answer back anyway.

I subscribe to a stricter definition of liberalism: favoring representative government, relatively free speech and press, freedom to practice your religion, right to assemble publicly and complain, right to trial by juries, etc. Basically, the 18th century Enlightenment thought on the organization of republics. It's entirely independent of economic terms, which is why I hate seeing people use socialism and liberalism to mean the same thing.
 
While the second I assume is tongue-in-cheek, I'll answer back anyway.

I subscribe to a stricter definition of liberalism: favoring representative government, relatively free speech and press, freedom to practice your religion, right to assemble publicly and complain, right to trial by juries, etc. Basically, the 18th century Enlightenment thought on the organization of republics. It's entirely independent of economic terms, which is why I hate seeing people use socialism and liberalism to mean the same thing.
This is libertarianism not liberalism. Liberalism is -by default- advocates capitalism(aka. "free market").
 
What are the varying opinions on the middle class?
Do you mean in the sense of whether it's viewed positively or negatively, or how it's understood in the first place? (Or something else altogether?)
 
Basically your definition and how it fits into your ideology.
 
Basically your definition and how it fits into your ideology.
The first thing I would say is that there is no single "middle class". That's a sociological rather than a social category- and although that's not to say that sociological class is irrelevant, because status groups, consumption groups, etc. do have a certain reality insofar as people believe in them, it's not even a particular useful category for sociological analysis. Instead, there are two social strata that you could call "middle class", although one of them isn't really in the middle, and the other one isn't really a class. So, um, bear with me.

First, you've got what Marx called the "petty bourgeoisie", which basically means small businessmen and other petty proprietors such as self-employed professionals, small farmers, and so on. While they own their means of production, they also work it themselves, and so the division between capital and labour does not appear, and they effectively sit outside of the capitalist class structure. Their status as a "middle" class is based on consumption, i.e. their socioeconomic status, rather than on their role in production.
Secondly, you've got a class which Marx himself never really addressed, but which is the main concern for later theorists of a middle class, and that's the "managerial" or "coordinator" class. As the name implies, this is a stratum comprised of managerial and administrative personnel, who, while separated from the capitalists class because they do not own capital (or at least not a socially significant amount of it) and must work for a living, are separated from the workers because their function is the oversight and management of production, rather than production itself. As such, they form a "middle" in the structure of capitalist production between the working "bottom" and the capitalist "top". (Trade union bureaucrats fulfil a similar role, although because they are mediating between labour and capital, rather than directing one on the half of the other, it's a little more complicated.) However, this intermediate position between labour and capital means that this class can't organised on an independent basis, which, as I said in my reply to Quackers, is that Marx is really interested in. In a certain sense, they are a section of labour, because they are waged employees like everyone else, but their role in the process of production is as an appendage of capital, so they're not in a position to independently oppose it. (You can't have "manager's self-management", if you see what I mean.) They might form a "class-in-themselves", in Marx's terms, but they are incapable of forming a "class-for-themselves", which is Marx's measure of a "true" class. Political organisation, for them, comes through attachment to other classes, almost invariably to the capitalist class (individuals may depart from this pattern, but rarely on a significant scale), or in certain periods of instability by attaching themselves to a non-class "Bonapartism", such as the interwar fascist movements or the anti-colonial nationalist (and "communist") movements in the third world.

[Edit: In retrospect, that last bit was over-simplistic. It's more true to say that the managerial stratum is capable of mobilising in pursuit of sectional interests within a given form of social organisation, but are not capable of mobilising in pursuit of a reorganisation of society in a different form. The two shouldn't be conflated as I do above.]

This brings up the question of what role these classes can have in any communist movement. As a class, they cannot have any role, because the working class, as Marx went to great pains to make clear, is the sole agent of its own emancipation. But as individuals? Well, that's trickier, and in all honesty I'm not sure where I stand in that. I don't see any reason to prevent someone apparently sincere in their beliefs from participating in left-wing politics, but I also think that it's necessary to maintain working class hegemony in the movement, or you'll just end up with something like the SWP which is dominated by academics and trade union officials. My provisional solution would be to allow "non-voting membership" to such individuals, with the extension of full membership on a case-by-case basis. But, I place only a limited emphasis on communist organisations (which I see as more properly concerning themselves with agitation and education than with pursuing "leadership"), so that's not as vital an issue for me as it might be for the various Trotskyist sects and what have you.

And I'm sorry that this was such a long post, but that's what happens when you ask commies about class. :lol:
 
Whatever kind of socialist/communist model a red has in mind, one thing seems clear to me: Its realization will be a strenuous effort which requires great stamina.
I venture the judgment that a democracy as known today can not provide such stamina, as sooner or later the majority would be put off by the strenuous effort.
What do you (the red persona willing to answer) think about that?
 
Whatever kind of socialist/communist model a red has in mind, one thing seems clear to me: It's realization will be a strenuous effort which requires great stamina.
I venture the judgment that a democracy as known today can not provide such stamina, as sooner or later the majority would be put off by the strenuous effort.
What do you (the red persona willing to answer) think about that?
I think that this is symptomatic of contemporary political society, rather than any intrinsic limits on the human race. Ours is fundamentally a democracy of the bourgeoisie, embedded in a society of private property and of the market, in which the majority can aspire at the very most to representation, to some degree of vaguely benevolent mediation. Real, lasting change is hard to come by, and when it comes it's often not all it was cracked up to be- some new institutional reform implemented, some slightly less malignant politician elected, or at most some grand paternal state-projects embarked upon. No wonder people can only muster so much energy! But a workers' revolution, well, that's something different. That puts people, for the very first time, truly in charge of their lives; who knows what the results of that would be? Who knows what energies we would have to draw upon, given only the opportunity? Who knows what human beings are capable of, if the chains of material scarcity and social heirarchy can be lifted?
And perhaps that won't be enough, and it will turn out that humans are, after all, to weak to carry out such a project, and we'll sink back into "all the old crap". But it's certainly worth a try.

Edit: And I realise that this answer is more rhetorical than actually, y'know, helpful, so perhaps one of the other posters might be able to contribute something more concrete. :lol:
 
Who knows what human beings are capable of, if the chains of material scarcity and social heirarchy can be lifted?
And perhaps that won't be enough, and it will turn out that humans are, after all, to weak to carry out such a project, and we'll sink back into "all the old crap". But it's certainly worth a try.
Excuse me my English... Many of us are part of some citizen boards or councils...for example I am part of board of apartment owners in apartment building. So we have experiences and at least in my case negative ones. Most loud are most stupid people.
 
Excuse me my English... Many of us are part of some citizen boards or councils...for example I am part of board of apartment owners in apartment building. So we have experiences and at least in my case negative ones. Most loud are most stupid people.
With all due respect, a tenants' committee isn't exactly the Paris Commune, so I don't think that any sort of unqualified analogy is feasible. (Aside from anything else, this implies an argument not just against communal democracy, but against democracy as such.)
 
With all due respect, a tenants' committee isn't exactly the Paris Commune, so I don't think that any sort of unqualified analogy is feasible. (Aside from anything else, this implies an argument not just against communal democracy, but against democracy as such.)

Sure it shall be argument againist democracy, but more in its direct form. Besides, the difference is also that in western democracy you dont give up (share) all liberty and property.
BTW is Paris Commune positive model?
 
Edit: And I realise that this answer is more rhetorical than actually, y'know, helpful, so perhaps one of the other posters might be able to contribute something more concrete. :lol:
I am relieved that you saw it yourself ;)
Now of course we can't know if I am correct and it certainly is possible I am wrong. As you correctly noted, my assumption rests on observations collected in contemporary democratic models, not in the "new one" (whatever that would exactly constitute). I think the crucial factor in answering my question is, weather the new form of democracy can be reasonably expected to trigger a society where material wealth isn't the holy arbiter of success. Meaning where the people would be willing to at least at first waive material wealth for the sake of keeping and improving the newly created society. And well I guess to answer that one, one would have to know what exactly is supposed to be implemented.
But I am skeptical, because material wealth seems to have done a good job to justify whatever society and bring down whatever society.
 
Sure it shall be argument againist democracy, but more in its direct form.
I'd suggest that an argument against direct democracy constructed not on purely functional grounds, but on consciously elitist grounds, is to all intents and purposes an argument against democracy. That you may defend some mechanism for popular oversight of a governing elite doesn't really change that.

Besides, the difference is also that in western democracy you dont give up (share) all liberty and property.
Well, firstly, I think that it's over-simplistic to compare "Western democracy" with communism; the proper comparison is between capitalism and communism, and capitalism has a less than untarnished record when it comes to respecting the liberty and property of the masses.
Secondly, I think that the conflation of "giving up" and "sharing" is tremendously over-simplistic. It assumes a very crude model of ownership- "I own it exclusively, or I do not own it"- which doesn't even apply with capitalism (joint stock companies?), let alone in communism.

BTW is Paris Commune positive model?
Merely a well-known example.

I am relieved that you saw it yourself ;)
Now of course we can't know if I am correct and it certainly is possible I am wrong. As you correctly noted, my assumption rests on observations collected in contemporary democratic models, not in the "new one" (whatever that would exactly constitute). I think the crucial factor in answering my question is, weather the new form of democracy can be reasonably expected to trigger a society where material wealth isn't the holy arbiter of success. Meaning where the people would be willing to at least at first waive material wealth for the sake of keeping and improving the newly created society. And well I guess to answer that one, one would have to know what exactly is supposed to be implemented.
But I am skeptical, because material wealth seems to have done a good job to justify whatever society and bring down whatever society.
There's a second assumption there- that the choice is "material well-being or communism". That's not true for many even in the West, let alone globally.

But this seems to a great extent a matter of interpretation, rather than something which can be proven empirically. So I guess I'm not really sure how we'd go about investigating this point.
 
Tommorow there is a Communist revolution in Great Britain. After a generation has passed - what unique improvements in my life I would enjoy because of the revolution?
 
It appears we (The United States) are currently in a severe recession. The most important question right now to those of us in the US should be:

What can we do to get out of this economic rutt?

It appears that our government is hurting from a deficit. So either the government has to raise taxes and/or lower its spending. Either way seems unsatisfactory at the moment. If the government raises taxes it's going to hurt the economy. If the government lowers spending it is going to hurt the economy. If the government keeps things as they are its hurting the economy. What would the reds recommend we do? Also, as a red what is your take on the current economic crisis? What caused it? Could socialism or perhaps communism get us out of it? If so, how?

My personal take: I can see some reason to believe that socialism or communism (an economy based upon rational planning if such a thing can exist) might never have gotten to this point. The housing boom went straight to bust because there was no rational planning by the industry. They produced way more houses than was needed in such a short time that home builders are scarce for customers now. For awhile the homebuilding industry soaked up a lot of workers and when it went bust it flooded the market with all those unemployed people who knew how to build housed but didn't know how to do other things, which tends to drive wages down. So in some sense perhaps capitalism failed to keep the equalibrium.

Now, on the side of the Laissez-faire capitalists out there: perhaps it failed to keep the equilibrium because of artificial stimuli created by the government to spur the industry. That is possible too. In that sense, someone in the government didn't plan correctly. Now maybe they didn't plan correctly because some big shot friends of his wanted to get rich quick instead of do what was needed by society. So instead of rational planning we simply had a cluster fest of greed.

So yes, IMO the economy would probably benefit from rational planning. Rational planning is probably THE key element that I associate with socialism or communism. Would you (a "red") concur with this?

Thanks.
 
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