Ask A Red: The IVth International

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Your instincts and experience are correct. Nothing good ever comes out of it. The EU is a fascist project, always was*. It is all about concentrating power and undermining democracy by pretending that people have no choices left to do. That "there are no alternatives" to do what "the market" (a magical force they keep invoking) "wishes". Reduce the individual citizens to impotence in their own minds. Privatizing services, moving them from the sphere of the state, which is accountable to the people through elections, to that of the "market", the magical sphere that allows no alternatives, is the way they use to grab power and make people believe they are impotent to challenge it. It's a lie, mind you.

(* and I'm starting another thread on the subject in the Tavern now)

I just read that the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina sold the biggest steel factory for 0.5€....mind you its still operational and the 3rd richest guy on the planet (the Indian industry giant) bought it. Now the workers are forced to work by Indian standards, and the pays have been reduced. Its also assumed that the presidency and ministries of industry got a hefty sum from that guy.
 
Thanks for the article link. Sounds like the good old fashioned class contradictions at play there down under. Would you say, then, the being a labour government makes it easier or more difficult to put forward a more revolutionary agenda? Does it make it harder when you have to enforce court orders like the ones from the article? I honestly do not know much about Australian politics accept that Peter Garrett, former lead singer of Midnight Oil was an MP.

its still goes back and forth, 2 steps forward 1 step back
Spoiler :
at the state level, the right took power, and promply went back on their word to the nurses, who went on strike, then the teachers, who went on strike,they kept their word to the police, greater numbers and pay increases... then they came after US, first they banned any logos/flags on building sites, and Grollo inforced it, so we made a deal with lend Lease( a bigger company) allowing for the flying of the Eurika flag on all of their sites, so the Union flag, still flew over our capital, then the state government, banned lend lease from all tenders of work for the government,(for 4 years) so the union took them to court, at the time of the proceedings Grollo banned Union safty reps from entering building sites...

now the union flag is held dear, it was first flown by minners in protest 1854, where brithish redcoats promtly open up with cannon fire and bayoneted the protesters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_Flag

"We swear by the Southern Cross to stand truly by each other and fight to defend our rights and liberties." According to the Ballarat Times, at "about eleven o'clock the 'Southern Cross' was hoisted, and its maiden appearance was a fascinating object to behold."
thats the M in CFMEU

now safety is a core issue for us, having long memories of the west gate bridge collapse, our union has spent many years insuring victoria has some of the best safety laws in the world, something the new government is tampering with, so when grollo bans our safty reps , its a declaration of war... if they want to test the unions, no better way than to attack core values, of a union, than the one with steel capped boots
http://www.abc.net.au/archives/80days/stories/2012/01/19/3411538.htm
a report, with one of the guys Grollo wanted banned
in the last 6 months they have backed off...

and it should be noted that the ferederal government did have powers to intervene that they did not use, preferring to let it play out on the street...
 
I just read that the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina sold the biggest steel factory for 0.5€....mind you its still operational and the 3rd richest guy on the planet (the Indian industry giant) bought it. Now the workers are forced to work by Indian standards, and the pays have been reduced. Its also assumed that the presidency and ministries of industry got a hefty sum from that guy.

What was the operational margin of the factory/company? What was the equity/debt ratio like?

0.5 Euros might have been a fortune.
 
It was the largest steel factory in the region. While it wasn't privatized pays with overtime could go up to 400€. As of privatization overtime is mandatory yet unpaid. There was a hunger strike and mass protest awhile ago. The land its on is worth a large sum, also the "holders" that took over (Mittal or something like that, cant remember) did not take all of the debt accumulated by the factory, a portion remained on the states back.
 
It was the largest steel factory in the region. While it wasn't privatized pays with overtime could go up to 400€. As of privatization overtime is mandatory yet unpaid. There was a hunger strike and mass protest awhile ago. The land its on is worth a large sum, also the "holders" that took over (Mittal or something like that, cant remember) did not take all of the debt accumulated by the factory, a portion remained on the states back.

It could be a corrupt deal, no doubt.

My point is merely that it being the biggest steel mill in the country, being operational and even being on a valuable piece of land is not enough to call it a bad deal.

If the buyer took over the debt, and the debt is much bigger than the assets and cash generation capability, than it can be sold for nothing and still represent a net gain for the state. This was the case in several privatizations that happened in Brazil, and they were very successful.
 
To somewhat echo Parkcunghee's question, how do "reds" view orgainized crime in general? I know Noam Chomsky has often used organized crime as a negative thing to compare something to. He is critical of organized crime or terrorism or anything of that nature. So I would assume that orginzed crime is something frowned upon by "reds", perhaps viewed as symptomatic of how capitalist societies work or something? Is that the case?
Are you trying to get anyone to say that they approve of organised crime?

Anyway, discussing organised crime:
I just read that the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina sold the biggest steel factory for 0.5€....mind you its still operational and the 3rd richest guy on the planet (the Indian industry giant) bought it. Now the workers are forced to work by Indian standards, and the pays have been reduced. Its also assumed that the presidency and ministries of industry got a hefty sum from that guy.
It was the largest steel factory in the region. While it wasn't privatized pays with overtime could go up to 400€. As of privatization overtime is mandatory yet unpaid. There was a hunger strike and mass protest awhile ago. The land its on is worth a large sum, also the "holders" that took over (Mittal or something like that, cant remember) did not take all of the debt accumulated by the factory, a portion remained on the states back.
Interesting. The same's happened in many places. Always at the hands of liberalisation, by some weird coincidence.
 
It could be a corrupt deal, no doubt.

My point is merely that it being the biggest steel mill in the country, being operational and even being on a valuable piece of land is not enough to call it a bad deal.

If the buyer took over the debt, and the debt is much bigger than the assets and cash generation capability, than it can be sold for nothing and still represent a net gain for the state. This was the case in several privatizations that happened in Brazil, and they were very successful.

If it was previously a state owned business, the state was likely liable for the debt.
Why would the creditors approve the transfer of the debt to a foreign company?
If they did not, then the state may remain liable if the foreign company defaults.

If the state was not liable for the debt, then how would it gain from the sale?
 
If it was previously a state owned business, the state was likely liable for the debt.
Why would the creditors approve the transfer of the debt to a foreign company?
If they did not, then the state may remain liable if the foreign company defaults.

If the state was not liable for the debt, then how would it gain from the sale?

The creditors don't have to approve anything. The government makes the sale and says that the debt transfer is legit. Done. It's been done many times in many countries.
 
Are you trying to get anyone to say that they approve of organised crime?

I'm not trying to "get" anyone to say anything except what they themselves think. People will say what they think on their own. If anyone out there approves of organized crime I would love to hear the rationale.
 
In P.G. Wodehouse’s Leave It to Psmith, Ronald Psmith and Even Halliday have the following exchange:

“Do you mean to say you gave me somebody else’s umbrella?”

“I had unfortunately omitted to bring my own out with me this morning.”

“I never heard of such a thing!”

“Merely practical Socialism. Other people are content to talk about the Redistribution of Property. I go out and do it.”

I think of this quote often, as I move through the cocktail parties of the well-heeled set, when I am asked, “How can I tell a theoretical socialist from a practical one?”


"I am with you, Comrade Jackson. You won't mind my calling you Comrade, will you? I've just become a socialist. It's a great scheme. You ought to be one. You work for the equal distribution of property, and start by collaring all you can and sitting on it. We must stick together. We are companions in misfortune. Lost lambs. Sheep that have gone astray. Divided, we fall, together we may worry through. Have you seen Professor Radium yet? I should say Mr. Outwood. What do you think of him?"

:p On topic.
 
Damn. I really like reading about the development on Organized Crime, because, as an Anarchist, it offers a lot of useful parallel to the development of and purpose of the state. I think you were the one who pointed out that if you anglicize the names, 16th Century Irish Politics sounds exactly like 20th Century Glasgow crimes.

Since I've invested so much time on this question, do you think organized crime can be a force genuinely in labors interest?

How do you come by organized crime even remotely being in labor's interest, especially for an anarchist? I thought anarchists likened the state to "organized crime"? Organized crime can be ugly and they often deal in things like prostitution, gambling, drugs and other anti-social tendencies. I would think any respectable anarchist would want to distance himself from organized crime. Otherwise it would just give a bad name to anarchism if that's the sort of thing anarchists want to be associated with. Yuck!

EDIT: Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting the nature of your question. I see where you do liken the state to organized crime. And some unions like the teamsters have been infiltrated by organized crime but I would think "reds" would see that as a kind of taint or misappropration or maybe having something to do with the way unions have sometimes been perceived negatively by some.

To somewhat echo Parkcunghee's question, how do "reds" view orgainized crime in general? I know Noam Chomsky has often used organized crime as a negative thing to compare something to. He is critical of organized crime or terrorism or anything of that nature. So I would assume that orginzed crime is something frowned upon by "reds", perhaps viewed as symptomatic of how capitalist societies work or something? Is that the case?

You are known by your friends as well as your enemies.

In Italy, an Italian friend once told me, the Mafia helped Red partisans get rid of the Nazi occupiers (after the Italian Army surrendered and Mussolini was captured in 1943). However...

Fidel Castro and the July 26th movement recognized that certain crimes were universal: rape, murder, robbery, theft. These crimes were the ultimate denial of life, liberty and property. Castro dealt justice in the Sierra Maestra when the Batista government did nothing to enforce criminal law, and he garnered a lot of support for it. This was when it was poor people stealing from, raping and murdering other poor people and they were in fear of their lives.

Lenin and a small delegation were robbed at gunpoint Christmas 1917 when they were delivering milk, toys and food to an orphanage that Krupskaya (his wife) was teaching at and when Lenin's bodyguard motioned for his pistol, Lenin stopped him -- it was not worth it over a few things that were replaceable, as lives were not. These robbers did not know they were holding up the leader of the revolution, were destitute. Lenin was choosing his battles.

Organized crime is crime in any way, shape or form. In a capitalist economy, organized crime an illegal form of exploitation of the people that per Gary Childress' comments above, can be ugly and brutal. After the Triumph of the Revolution in 1959, there was no tolerance in Cuba for organized crime and the representatives of foreign crime families got out of Cuba ASAP.

Socialism will not be able to get rid of organized crime all at once, but under socialism the government will have teeth to be able to deal with organized crime, as it goes against the basic tenets of Marxism. Couple that to a program that meets the needs of the people and makes criminals stand out, and you can begin to eliminate it. The main problem under capitalism (at least the main problem for the capitalist and their government) with organized crime is that it is not taxable.

That's my short answer, anyway.
 
What I am trying to say here is that in each case they applied the tenets of marxism-leninism and won in their respective countries, and respective situations, and in some cases the theory came out during the contest and in some instances it came out after, BUT THAT THE UPDATING OF THE THEORY OF MARXIST REVOLUTION CAME OUT OF PRACTICE -- revolutionary practice -- not from careful study to find the best theory -- they hashed it out at the point of practice.

The other side of that coin is those who tried to update Marxism in the absence of a successful proletarian revolution. You get this "Well, it hasn't worked yet, so why do it?" is a paraphrase of a common sentiment, which is itself undialectical. I practice Marxism-Leninism in the United States and "it hasn't worked yet." either, but the theory I practice and the application of that theory is based in revolutionary struggle.

I hope this helps.

I just want to take the time to voice my semi-dissent with this opinion. I don't think that past experiences should dictate the course of future efforts. As I've said before, different people in different places and different times require different methods. Sure, there's a lot to be gained from looking at how things went in the past: we might gather, for example, that we need to be ready for a powerful counter-revolutionary resistance, and the possibility of foreign intervention on their behalf. There are certain lessons that are more broadly applicable, but imitation is uncalled for. Just because Marxist-Leninists have succeeded in revolutions where many others have not doesn't mean that Marxism-Leninism is the universal program for revolutionaries everywhere. You say that lack of success is not indicative of lack of future success; that's true. But past success is also not indicative future success; and the same goes for relevance. If I can make Marxist-Leninists realize that M-L is a period-based ideology, then I will consider myself to have accomplished something greatly benificial to our movement.

To be quite frank, it's dangerous to the revolutionary movement to cling hard to this circumstantial political program. A program, mind you, that didn't even govern the revolution that in turn created it. It's a fake program, retconned to give the illusion of continuity and purposeful action. It's only redeeming qualities were its [false] appearance of success, which gave it name credibility, and its nation-building program which earned it the backing of people motivated to modernize their countries economically and socially when the only other thing promising such growth was the imperialist capitalism that they had already seen the raw end of. I've already spoken about the lack of use in the West for the Vanguard before.

I don't say these things because I hate Marxist-Leninists, or because I want to despoil the names of Lenin, Stalin, or any Marxist-Leninists, but because I see a great danger to our movement posed by and ideology which is unnecessary and which naturally leads its followers to closed-mindedness with its message of timeless correctness. I see it everyday isolating the communist movement. We should not be building a correct movement, we should be building a mass movement. Miguel de Uanmuno quipped at the Francoists in Salamanca in 1936 "You will win, but you will not convince." The self-righteousness of dogmatic communists is actively driving people away from the movement, as the True Believers isolate themselves in a fortress of ideological correctness; they rest of the world is wrong, but what good does that do for the revolution? We are not merely philosophers, we are political actors. Philosophers have only interpreted the world in different ways, but the point is to change it. Which comes back again to the Thurmon Arnold quote in my signature.

If I might quote Slavoj Zizek in First as Tragedy, Then As Farce, to better illustrate my point:

In the good old days of Really Existing Socialism, a joke popular among dissidents was used to illustrate the futility of their protests. In the fifteenth century, when Russia was occupied by the Mongols, a peasant and his wife were walking along a dusty country road; a Mongol warrior on a horse stopped at their side and told the peasant he would now proceed to rape his wife, he then added: "But since there is a lot of dust on the ground,you must hold my testicles while I rape your wife, so that they will not get dirty!" Once the Mongol had done the deed and ridden away, the peasant started laughing and jumping with joy. His surprised wife asked: "How can you be jumping with joy when I was just brutally raped in your presence?" The farmer answered: "But I got him! His balls are covered with dust!" This sad joke reveals the predicament of the dissidents: they thought they were delaing serious blows to the party nomenklatura, but all they were doing was slightly soiling the nomenklatura's testicles, while the ruling class carried on raping the people...

Is today's critical Left not in a similar position?...Our Thesis 11 should be: in our societies, critical Leftists have hitherto only succeeded in soiling those in power, whereas the real point is to castrate them.

But how can we do this? We should learn from the failures of twentieth century Leftist politics. The task is not to conduct the castration in a direct climactic confrontation, but to undermine those in power with patient ideologico-critical work, so that although they are still in power, one all of a sudden notices that powers-that-be are afflicted with unnaturally high-pitched voices.

In 1922, when Lenin proposed the New Economic Policy, he wrote a short text defending it called "On Ascending a High Mountain. He uses the simile of a climber who has to return to the valley after a first failed attempt to reach a new mountain peak as a way of describing what it means to make a retreat in the revolutionary process. The question is: how does one undertake such a retreat without opportunistically betraying one's fidelity to the Cause? After enumerating both the achievements and failures of the Soviet state, Lenin concludes: "Communists who have no illusions, who do not give way to despondency, and who preserve their strength and flexibility to begin from the beginning' over and over again in approaching an extremely difficult task, are not doomed and in all probability will not perish."

I realize in all of the above there rests an equally strong critique of those communists who bloviate about The Revolution without engaging in any sort of action. I am not saying that they are going to accomplish anything, either. They are stuck in the same rut as Marxist-Leninists: they seek philosophy rather than opportunity, and so in the end they create philosophy rather than opportunity.

And so what I am saying is, we have to find our own way, and we can do so by trial and error, and by careful reflection upon the lessons of the past that prove to be relevant today. We must be constantly interpreting and re-interpreting our situation, and our successes and failures, not through the jaundiced lens of the past, but through the timeless social science of Dialectical Materialism. We can no longer afford to rely upon past analyses of past societies in past situations in a vain effort to understand our present situation in our present society. Socialism is democracy, but it is not democracy of the dead.
 
Thank you, Cheezy, well said.

But to clarify my position: I am not suggesting that we can graft the Russian or Chinese revolutions into the 21st century and -- in Cheezy's and my case, North American -- revolutionary movement. I am saying that no updating of Marx's revolutionary theory can be considered without a basis in revolutionary struggle. Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua in this century did not have "Marxist-Leninist" revolutions and I, too divorce myself from the "orthodox" marxists (note the lower case "m") who cling to mother Russia or Daddy China as a blueprint. It is un dialectical. You can't just copy the words and expect the same effect. Of people of this stripe Marx once said "If that is Marxism, I am no Marxist."

You have to have your enemy by the jewels, so to speak. Nice quote, by the way.
 
Oh, you Americans and your lower case/upper case distinctions. What is the distinction between a Marxist and a marxist?
 
Takhisis said:
Oh, you Americans and your lower case/upper case distinctions. What is the distinction between a Marxist and a marxist?

Nothing, just needling the armchair Marxists and their orthodoxy devoid of practice. Eric Fromme never put a calorie's worth of food on anyone's plate, or a penny in their pocket, and he was a "great writer."
 
if armchair Marxists need needleing, remind them that some socialist/labour movements trace their history back to the late 1800's and US, thought and ideas,(even adopting the US spelling of labor) thus tho reading marx, lenning was seen as a very late enterent into the game... with the worlds first labour government,(only lasted a week, but...) elected in 1899.
 
Nothing, just needling the armchair Marxists and their orthodoxy devoid of practice. Eric Fromme never put a calorie's worth of food on anyone's plate, or a penny in their pocket, and he was a "great writer."
Never put a bullet in the back of a dissident's head, either. I'd say that's breaking even.
 
Graffito said:
if armchair Marxists need needleing, remind them that some socialist/labour movements trace their history back to the late 1800's and US, thought and ideas,(even adopting the US spelling of labor) thus tho reading marx, lenning was seen as a very late enterent into the game... with the worlds first labour government,(only lasted a week, but...) elected in 1899.

Of course, Lenin's benchmark was The Paris Commune, which is the only example Lenin had when he wrote "The State and Revolution," and Lenin danced a jig when the October Revolution lasted one day longer.

Traitorfish said:
Never put a bullet in the back of a dissident's head, either. I'd say that's breaking even.

Nicely played, Traitorfish. Nicely played. But I wouldn't call that "even."
 
I've asked this before: whether "reds" believe in the abolition of private property and I think I've gotten differing opinions on the matter. I've heard some say that by "abolition of private property" it is meant that no one, not even the average guy on the street is allowed to have possessions and I've heard (perhaps more moderate "reds") say that it would only apply to things like industry and institutions that serve the public. As someone who has many comforts in life, I guess this is a facet of being "red" that most concerns me.

Now, I believe it has been said in some sense by Reindeerthistle that a lot of people who contribute to charity and things of that sort are probably more "red" than they think they are. That is possibly true, but when it comes to something like radical abolition of private property I just think you reach a point where at least 70% of the population just won't go for it. The 30% who might support it would be mostly made up of the homeless and extremely poor.

I'm sorry to belabor an old topic but it seems to be a central one to being a "red". Is the abolition of private property really an essential component of "red" theory and ideology? Can a person believe in only socializing large public institutions but not all property and still be a "red"? Or maybe I have it all wrong? Is there any "red" who believes in abolition of all private property?

If I had to identify a most pivotal topic of "red" theory I would choose "abolition of private property". Maybe I'm mistaken but I can't think of anything more central or fundamental to "red" ideology than that so I guess I'll belabor the point a bit (no pun intended).

EDIT: If "reds" yourselves out there had to identify something most pivotal and fundamental to your beliefs what would you say was most important in "red" thinking and ideology? On a somewhat similar vein what aspect of being a "red" most attracts you to the movement?
 
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