Ask a Theologian IV

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I know you have a philosophy background, and so I hope this okay:

Where do you personally stand on the mind-body problem? I feel like I've been coming down on the dualist side, which bugs me because I try to stay away from metaphysics.
 
First time here? What are you up to?

No, I've been here a few times. In fact I was in California just a month or two ago on holiday. This time I'm at Stanford for three days (!) for a rather intense funding planning conference.

Since my brain thinks it's lunchtime, I'm up dreadfully early, so I may as well answer these while I have some time.

What I meant by nationalism was extreme nationalism, such as in the Third Reich or the driving force behind colonialism. I think that the shock of losing their empires, which had been justified by religious means, might have contributed to it. Nationalism obviously isn't entirely gone as you pointed out, but it's nothing like it was just 70-80 years ago. Today Europe contains some of the least patriotic countries in the world, while America, the Western nation that has avoided this mass apostasy, is one of the most patriotic. We can observe how this happens, as America's extreme right-wingers have seemed to have turned the Constitution into a holy document. Check this book if you're interested, although I haven't read it yet.

I think you're making a number of assumptions here that don't really hold up.

First, I don't believe there was really such a big link between colonialist-type nationalism and religion. Of course colonialists spoke the language of religion to justify what they did, but their actions tended to belie this language. For example, in the early to mid-nineteenth century in India, the British authorities tended to discourage Christian evangelism among Indians (and active forbid it among Indian soldiers serving the empire) because they thought it would be bad for morale. Christian Indians tended to be greatly discriminated against by Hindus at this time, having fallen afoul of the caste system, and yet still had to pay taxes as if they were Hindus; and the authorities did little to help them. In the later nineteenth century, the authorities did take a more pro-evangelism line, attempting to convert the Indians, but this was simply because they thought a Christian population would be more passive and easily controlled.

I also think you're confusing imperialism with patriotism. You say that the US is a highly patriotic country today, and you may be right, but it's not an imperialist one, at least not in the way that the British empire was imperialist. If the loss of religion were really connected to the loss of empire, that wouldn't explain why the US remains more religious than Europe, given that it never really had an empire (other than the Philippines, I suppose).

It also wouldn't explain why the Scandinavian countries are among the least religious in Europe, despite never having had empires in modern times; or why Italy and Spain are among the most religious countries in Europe, despite having lost what empires they had.

I think you're right that the US today is far more religious than most European countries. There are some who would deny this, but it seems evident to me. I'm not convinced, though, that it's necessarily more patriotic. Patriotism certainly takes different forms in the US compared to Europe, but I'd say that most Europeans are still (depressingly) patriotic. We've surely seen ample evidence of that in London this year. And I don't think European-style patriotism has much to do with religion. If anything it's more to do with sport. When the whole of south London sprouts England flags during the World Cup it's not because everyone's suddenly found God.

Moreover, one can point to other countries where patriotism is very strong and visible and yet religion is not. Japan is a very secular country where most people are not religious, but I think it's as insanely patriotic as the US.

I'd agree with you that there may be links between patriotism and religion. Both involve identification with a larger group and belief in the importance of rather vague abstractions. But I don't think that's much of a link - rather, it's just human nature to do that sort of thing.

The decadence in Europe might be reversing in the long term, though, with both David Cameron and Angela Merkel denouncing multiculturalism and the European Union becoming unstable.

Cameron and Merkel are right-wing loons who would denounce multiculturalism no matter what the actual situation were. But multiculturalism is a completely different issue from both levels of religious commitment and patriotism; even if their sentiments reflected those of Britons and Germans at large, which I hope they do not, I don't see that it would make much difference to what we're talking about - or to the issue of "decadence", by which I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think the EU is going anywhere either, but if it did, I wouldn't be inclined to view that as a positive development.

I know you have a philosophy background, and so I hope this okay:

Where do you personally stand on the mind-body problem? I feel like I've been coming down on the dualist side, which bugs me because I try to stay away from metaphysics.

This isn't my area. But most philosophers of mind today are functionalists, which means they think the mind is a function (of some kind) of the body. What they understand by the "of some kind" part is where the disagreements lie. Dualists think the function involves properties of the body which are somehow not material or explicable materially, while non-dualists reject this. Personally I think that functionalism seems reasonable and that dualism doesn't really explain anything, while bringing a whole load of weirdness that just requires more explanation.

My inclination is to say that the mind is to the body what the music is to the violin: it's not identical with it, but it's wholly explicable in terms of it.

The funny thing, though, is that there aren't really any arguments for this kind of position, it's more of an intuition. Most of the actual arguments in philosophy of mind are for dualism, and the arguments for non-dualism generally involve trying to demolish the dualist arguments rather than construct anything positive as an alternative. Which is a rather unusual sort of situation.
 
Mouthwash said:
What I meant by nationalism was extreme nationalism, such as in the Third Reich or the driving force behind colonialism.
Another point is that colonialism predates nationalism by a long while.
 
Cameron and Merkel are right-wing loons who would denounce multiculturalism no matter what the actual situation were. But multiculturalism is a completely different issue from both levels of religious commitment and patriotism; even if their sentiments reflected those of Britons and Germans at large, which I hope they do not, I don't see that it would make much difference to what we're talking about - or to the issue of "decadence", by which I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think the EU is going anywhere either, but if it did, I wouldn't be inclined to view that as a positive development.

Ahahaha, Europe is the first place that pops into my head when I think of "right-wing loon." :eek: By decadence I mean cultural decadence, the feeling that your culture is worthless and that patriotism is for the brainwashed. Sort of like the left-wing loons who call for America to take in every hungry Mexican that we can.

If the loss of religion were really connected to the loss of empire, that wouldn't explain why the US remains more religious than Europe, given that it never really had an empire.

Well, you already burst my bubble with the above, but do you really think that the US doesn't have an empire?
 
I also think you're confusing imperialism with patriotism. You say that the US is a highly patriotic country today, and you may be right, but it's not an imperialist one, at least not in the way that the British empire was imperialist. If the loss of religion were really connected to the loss of empire, that wouldn't explain why the US remains more religious than Europe, given that it never really had an empire (other than the Philippines, I suppose).


I would say that if you're not thinking that America is imperialistic you're using the wrong definition. Unlike other imperial powers, what we took, we've mostly kept, and integrated it so tightly that there's very little chance of it breaking free in the foreseeable future. Most of the population of our empire doesn't even consider itself conquered territory, unlike most other empires. We took 1/3 of a largish continent, islands throughout the Pacific and Caribbean, and with a few notable exceptions, it's still ours.
 
By decadence I mean cultural decadence, the feeling that your culture is worthless and that patriotism is for the brainwashed. Sort of like the left-wing loons who call for America to take in every hungry Mexican that we can.

Not to worry then: the US 'left-wing loons', as you say, have no political clout whatsoever (and never had one either). But realistically, without all those 'illegal iimigrants' the immigrant-built US wouldn't be what it is today, and its economy would grind to a screeching halt - sort of like every other economy that has a specialied labour shortage.
 
Ahahaha, Europe is the first place that pops into my head when I think of "right-wing loon." :eek: By decadence I mean cultural decadence, the feeling that your culture is worthless and that patriotism is for the brainwashed. Sort of like the left-wing loons who call for America to take in every hungry Mexican that we can.

No doubt by American standards Cameron and Merkel are practically socialists, but by our standards at least they're well on the right! I don't think that anyone really thinks their culture is worthless - other than certain severely oppressed minorities who have been brought up to do so, such as the Christians in Pakistan. I do think that patriotism is both irrational and iniquitous, although I wouldn't quite put it the way you did. I don't see what's "decadent" about thinking this, though. To take it back in a theological direction, which is what we're meant to be talking about here, people like Cyprian of Carthage had a a view not unlike this, and surely no-one would call him decadent - would they?

Well, you already burst my bubble with the above, but do you really think that the US doesn't have an empire?

I would say that if you're not thinking that America is imperialistic you're using the wrong definition. Unlike other imperial powers, what we took, we've mostly kept, and integrated it so tightly that there's very little chance of it breaking free in the foreseeable future. Most of the population of our empire doesn't even consider itself conquered territory, unlike most other empires. We took 1/3 of a largish continent, islands throughout the Pacific and Caribbean, and with a few notable exceptions, it's still ours.

Sure, we all know what's meant by "American imperialism", but it's a different kind of empire from those of the nineteenth-century European powers. Either way, though, I don't think it really affects my point that the religiosity of a country isn't determined by how powerful it is on the global stage. That may affect the kind[/] of religiosity it has, or the ways in which religious sentiment is expressed, but I don't see any evidence that it affects how religious it is.
 
No doubt by American standards Cameron and Merkel are practically socialists, but by our standards at least they're well on the right! I don't think that anyone really thinks their culture is worthless - other than certain severely oppressed minorities who have been brought up to do so, such as the Christians in Pakistan. I do think that patriotism is both irrational and iniquitous, although I wouldn't quite put it the way you did. I don't see what's "decadent" about thinking this, though. To take it back in a theological direction, which is what we're meant to be talking about here, people like Cyprian of Carthage had a a view not unlike this, and surely no-one would call him decadent - would they?

My previous post came off as a bit antagonistic and I apologize if it seemed that way to you. Decadence is a mentality for the most part; no one ever says "I hate the English language and I hate our custom of going inside our homes with our shoes on!" While America has a lot of constitution-worshiping conservatives, there are people who flat out don't care about America or actively despise it. For instance, the controversial preacher associated with Obama who said, "God damn America!" I'm sure that there have been times, such as in occupied or oppressive countries, where people have felt "decadent" on a large scale and admired other cultures more than their own.

Then there are "barbaric" cultures, where the people believe their principles and customs to be superior to others, and finally "civilized" cultures, where foreign cultures are respected but domestic culture is still prominent.
 

Well, that's assuming Russia collapses as he predicts it will. It definitely won't remain powerful forever because of the long-term demographic problem...

Now I'm done derailing the thread. :D
 
No, I've been here a few times. In fact I was in California just a month or two ago on holiday. This time I'm at Stanford for three days (!) for a rather intense funding planning conference.
Hope you've been enjoying your stay here.

So I heard today secondhand of a Catholic priest describing his encounters with ghosts. He said they were spirits of very sinful dead (pedophiles and such) who chose to remain on earth rather than face divine justice. So, some questions:
1. Is this idea of ghosts explicitly rejected or supported in official Catholic doctrine?
2. Has anybody ever theorized why there aren't more ghosts if this is the case? Surely most people would find earth preferable to hell.
3. Can you give a general overview of Christian ideas about ghosts?
 
Hope you've been enjoying your stay here.

So I heard today secondhand of a Catholic priest describing his encounters with ghosts. He said they were spirits of very sinful dead (pedophiles and such) who chose to remain on earth rather than face divine justice. So, some questions:
1. Is this idea of ghosts explicitly rejected or supported in official Catholic doctrine?
2. Has anybody ever theorized why there aren't more ghosts if this is the case? Surely most people would find earth preferable to hell.
3. Can you give a general overview of Christian ideas about ghosts?

The Old Testament "encounters" did envolve bringing back the dead from sheol. That is why it was forbidden. If there are those who call up the spirits via sexual "orgies" who else would come up but those who are familiar with such acts?
 
Sure, we all know what's meant by "American imperialism", but it's a different kind of empire from those of the nineteenth-century European powers. Either way, though, I don't think it really affects my point that the religiosity of a country isn't determined by how powerful it is on the global stage. That may affect the kind[/] of religiosity it has, or the ways in which religious sentiment is expressed, but I don't see any evidence that it affects how religious it is.




I would agree that US imperialism is unrelated to the fact that the US tends to be more religious than the Western European nations that the bulk of our people descend from.

If I was to attribute American's greater religiosity to anything, it would be the separation of church and state, the lack of any state church, and fragmentation of Christian denominations that resulted from that. In essence, more people stick to religion because they are not being forced to worship in one particular way, and are free to make up whatever the hell seems right to them.

In fact, I would also attribute the limits to American Imperialism to religion, rather than the imperialism itself: We could have taken a hell of a lot more territory in Latin America if we had been willing to absorb those Catholics.
 
1. Is this idea of ghosts explicitly rejected or supported in official Catholic doctrine?

Catholic doctrine teaches that upon death a persons soul is immediately either damned or saved in their personal judgement. There is no place I would say in Catholic doctrine for the concept of "lost souls" like this priest (who I would suspect is less than orthodox) is supposedly saying, who haunt the material world having tried to avoid judgement for their sins. This conception of ghosts outright contradicts the doctrines of the faith.

However, the Church does not rule out that God can on occasion permit visions of those who have departed from earthly life. Visions of saints come to mind for example and perhaps people would consider such visions as examples of apparitions of ghosts. But this is quite a different thing from what that priest is supposedly saying, and from the popular conception of ghostly entities wandering about the world.

-

Oh, an incidentally attempting to contact the deceased through occult means is absolutely forbidden (CCC 2116) amongst other things. Just thought that should be made clear :p
 
Some persons have mused on whether that could be a possibility, but thats not a part of Catholic teaching and regardless the conception of ghosts that priest of yours had is completely beyond the pale of Catholic doctrine.
 
My previous post came off as a bit antagonistic and I apologize if it seemed that way to you. Decadence is a mentality for the most part; no one ever says "I hate the English language and I hate our custom of going inside our homes with our shoes on!" While America has a lot of constitution-worshiping conservatives, there are people who flat out don't care about America or actively despise it. For instance, the controversial preacher associated with Obama who said, "God damn America!"

In the case of Jeremiah Wright, it's important to understand comments like that in their theological context. Wright said "God damn America" not as a nebulous expression of hatred but as a condemnation of what he regarded as immoral behaviour by the government:

Jeremiah Wright said:
And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent fairly, she failed. She put them on reservations. When it came to treating her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in internment prison camps. When it came to treating her citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains, the government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton field, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent.

As he says in that passage, this sort of thing is biblical, as it’s precisely what the Old Testament prophets did all the time:

Jeremiah 2 said:
What wrong did your fathers find in me that they went far from me,
and went after worthlessness, and became worthless? They did not say, ‘Where is the Lord who brought us up from the land of Egypt,
who led us in the wilderness,
 in a land of deserts and pits,
in a land of drought and deep darkness,
 in a land that none passes through,
 where no man dwells?’ And I brought you into a plentiful land
 to enjoy its fruits and its good things.

But when you came in, you defiled my land
 and made my heritage an abomination. The priests did not say, ‘Where is the Lord?’
 Those who handle the law did not know me;
the shepherds transgressed against me;
 the prophets prophesied by Baal
 and went after things that do not profit…

As a thief is shamed when caught,
 so the house of Israel shall be shamed:
they, their kings, their officials,
 their priests, and their prophets, who say to a tree, ‘You are my father,’
 and to a stone, ‘You gave me birth.’
For they have turned their back to me,
 and not their face.
But in the time of their trouble they say,
 ‘Arise and save us!’ But where are your gods
 that you made for yourself?
Let them arise, if they can save you,
 in your time of trouble;
for as many as your cities
 are your gods, O Judah.

Why do you contend with me?
 You have all transgressed against me,
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 7 said:
Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—only to go on doing all these abominations? Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the Lord. Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it because of the evil of my people Israel. And now, because you have done all these things, declares the Lord, and when I spoke to you persistently you did not listen, and when I called you, you did not answer, therefore I will do to the house that is called by my name, and in which you trust, and to the place that I gave to you and to your fathers, as I did to Shiloh. And I will cast you out of my sight, as I cast out all your kinsmen, all the offspring of Ephraim.

As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with me, for I will not hear you.

In fact most of the book of Jeremiah is like this. The book of Hosea is nothing more than an extended metaphor of Israel as prostitute. Or take the book of Micah:

Micah 2 said:
Woe to those who devise wickedness
 and work evil on their beds!
When the morning dawns, they perform it,
 because it is in the power of their hand. They covet fields and seize them, and houses, and take them away;
they oppress a man and his house,
 a man and his inheritance.

Therefore thus says the Lord:
behold, against this family I am devising disaster, from which you cannot remove your necks,
and you shall not walk haughtily,
 for it will be a time of disaster. In that day they shall take up a taunt song against you
 and moan bitterly,
and say, “We are utterly ruined;
 he changes the portion of my people;
how he removes it from me!
 To an apostate he allots our fields.” Therefore you will have none to cast the line by lot
 in the assembly of the Lord.

Micah 3 said:
And I said:
Hear, you heads of Jacob
 and rulers of the house of Israel!
Is it not for you to know justice?—you who hate the good and love the evil,
who tear the skin from off my people
and their flesh from off their bones, who eat the flesh of my people,
 and flay their skin from off them,
and break their bones in pieces
 and chop them up like meat in a pot,
 like flesh in a cauldron. Then they will cry to the Lord,
 but he will not answer them;
he will hide his face from them at that time,
 because they have made their deeds evil…

Hear this, you heads of the house of Jacob
 and rulers of the house of Israel,
who detest justice
 and make crooked all that is straight, who build Zion with blood
 and Jerusalem with iniquity. Its heads give judgment for a bribe;
 its priests teach for a price;
 its prophets practice divination for money;
yet they lean on the Lord and say,
 “Is not the Lord in the midst of us?
 No disaster shall come upon us.”

Therefore because of you
 Zion shall be plowed as a field;
Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins,
 and the mountain of the house a wooded height.

In other words, “God damn Israel” – precisely because (a) it had abandoned the proper worship of God, and (b) it was oppressing the poor.

These ideas were important in early Christianity and especially important in black American Christianity, for obvious reasons. Old Testament themes related to social justice recur in black American preaching and songs, partly because it was one way that slaves or the children of slaves could express their desire to be free in language that their oppressors wouldn’t notice. There’s a reason why so many spirituals are about Moses parting the Red Sea, or Joshua crossing the river of Jordan, and so on. And these Old Testament ideas inspired more academic black American theology such as that of James Cone, which is basically liberation theology. Much of the ideology underlying the civil rights movement in the 1960s came from this source too.

It seems to me that Wright’s attacks on the crimes of the American establishment fit perfectly into that pattern. He wasn’t denigrating American culture compared to other people’s, he was denouncing the immoral actions of America in the prophetic mould. I’d call that good moral sense, not decadence, just as it was when Micah did it.

I'm sure that there have been times, such as in occupied or oppressive countries, where people have felt "decadent" on a large scale and admired other cultures more than their own. Then there are "barbaric" cultures, where the people believe their principles and customs to be superior to others, and finally "civilized" cultures, where foreign cultures are respected but domestic culture is still prominent.

I really don’t see what makes the one case “decadent”, the second “barbaric”, or the third “civilised” - moral judgements ought to be impartial. But let's not take this off-topic.

Hope you've been enjoying your stay here.

So I heard today secondhand of a Catholic priest describing his encounters with ghosts. He said they were spirits of very sinful dead (pedophiles and such) who chose to remain on earth rather than face divine justice. So, some questions:
1. Is this idea of ghosts explicitly rejected or supported in official Catholic doctrine?
2. Has anybody ever theorized why there aren't more ghosts if this is the case? Surely most people would find earth preferable to hell.
3. Can you give a general overview of Christian ideas about ghosts?

I haven’t heard this idea before, and as Jehoshua says, it sounds pretty weird from the point of view of Christian orthodoxy.

Augustine rejects the notion that the souls of the wicked can become demons. I’m sure that Augustine somewhere repeats the view of Plato, that ghosts are the spirits of people who were too materialistic in life and who are therefore condemned to hang around in the material world, but I can’t find it. It may actually have been Origen who said this – but I can’t find that either!

The early Christians were unsure whether ghosts existed or whether it was really possible to speak to the dead. There was a controversy regarding the Witch of Endor episode in the Old Testament where Saul speaks to the ghost of Samuel; some Christians thought it really was the ghost of Samuel, while others contended that it was a demon in disguise. I’m not sure what the outcome of the controversy was – I suspect that rather more important issues overtook it.

If I was to attribute American's greater religiosity to anything, it would be the separation of church and state, the lack of any state church, and fragmentation of Christian denominations that resulted from that. In essence, more people stick to religion because they are not being forced to worship in one particular way, and are free to make up whatever the hell seems right to them.

That makes sense. But still, pretty much the same thing could be said of Britain. Obviously there is a state church and no separation of church and state, but nevertheless there hasn’t been any serious pressure to conform to Anglicanism for well over a century, and there are all kinds of denominations all over the place. Moreover, the countries in Europe that are most religious today, such as Italy or Spain, are those where one denomination massively predominates, i.e. Catholicism.
 
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