ask a transman anything

[Brighteye]

No, go into the link I provided. The brain will only change if it is bathed with androgen. If it is not, then it continues as a female brain. Now there are many case scenarios that take place. Let say we have a fetus with XX chromosome, but the sry gene has incorrectly been attached to the X chromosome you will then, have an androgenic affect. Which means now a female protype will develop as male even though they have female DNA. Another scenario is the pregnant mother was given medication which altered the uteral enviroment, created excess androgen, the fetus brain will be altered.

So, you cannot go by the chromosomes, there are many females who are XY, as there are many males who are XX. It's all about the hormones and timing. Female is the original one according to science and the latest research.

Mark Angelo

Sorry about not seeing the video, but they take so long to download I try to avoid them.
I have (you'll be surprised to hear) studied genetics to a small degree, although I did avoid development as much as I could. However, I do know enough to know about various problems with the male development at this stage.
I was making more of a point about semantics: default does not mean original. It does not say anything about the status of the brain before the time of the signal. Until the time for the signal, the brain is neither male nor female.
It then reaches a fork; it can become either male or female. The fact that an active signal is required for it to become male does not make it female before that point. As even the (very opinionated) article to which you linked previously admitted, further development occurs to make it a female brain.

 

[lassia]

Is'nt bizzare that England accepts it more openly, yet, the legalities are still behind. However, legally, we have made strides in the US, but morally and socially it's still not accepted. Go figure. I hope that one day, the world will understand, and no one will have to suffer feeling trapped in the wrong body, or being discriminated for being different.

Sorry to disappoint you, but since the Gender Recognition Act 2004, a transsexual in UK can obtain new legal documents that match their acquired gender. Gender reassignment surgery is not a requirement. Compared to US where laws vary across states, UK is still a step ahead.

 

[IglooDame]

Sorry about not seeing the video, but they take so long to download I try to avoid them.
I have (you'll be surprised to hear) studied genetics to a small degree, although I did avoid development as much as I could. However, I do know enough to know about various problems with the male development at this stage.
I was making more of a point about semantics: default does not mean original. It does not say anything about the status of the brain before the time of the signal. Until the time for the signal, the brain is neither male nor female.
It then reaches a fork; it can become either male or female. The fact that an active signal is required for it to become male does not make it female before that point. As even the (very opinionated) article to which you linked previously admitted, further development occurs to make it a female brain.

I'm not sure (whether true or not) how the brain's initial existence as female or neither matters to the argument in any case. Saying "up till the 8-week point, the brain is genderless/female and the level of male hormones determine its further development" is equally adequate, given the point is that brain development can fail to match primary sexual characteristic development.

 

[Plotinus]

Exactly. In this case the dispute is only really about words and not particularly germane to the point at hand.

 

[Mirc]

The generalization is cruel but true. Most religious people believe in the bible which teaches them black or white, no shades of grey. They do not take the time as most people to learn the truth about fetal development. Even your self, thinking that the brain is a proto brain, well you are wrong. You are saying that what I said was stupid, well here is a link where the scientist say it:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/story?id=2274147&page=1&gma=true

Now, I suppose you are going to call them stupid. Do you see how I prove my point on religious people. Black or white, genderless brain huh? You obviously know very little about fetal development. I suggest you educate yourself further. Also enter my website which is located on my signature area here on this forum. I suggest you peruse the links that have many informative research.

Mark Angelo

No, that's not stupid, that's just a journalistic presentation of facts. What I mean is that until 8 weeks, the brain is not female: it is something that will evolve into either female or male. It might surprise you, but before androgen is secreted, the body is NOT female, because, though it might surprise you, females secret testosterone too! It is secreted by the ovaries, and also in small amounts by the adrenal glands. In females, it also leads to a higher clitoral engorgement frequency. So we can clearly make a conclusion: before the action of androgens, the brain and the body in general is neither male nor female. And yes, in academic terms, that is called a protobrain, or proto-brain.

That article is extremely untrustworthy - look what they say: "For instance, a woman uses about 20,000 words a day while a man uses about 7,000". That has been proved wrong countless times, and it's at the beginning of the article. Why would I trust something else from that article, that goes against what I know, and that I can prove wrong even with my "uneducated" knowledge of fetal development?

The generalization is cruel but true. Most religious people believe in the bible which teaches them black or white, no shades of grey.

So the generalization is white or black (your pick), right? No shade of gray.... I'm afraid, from what I think, that you might be a little biased against religious people.

 

[markangeloc]

I just searched the thread and discrimination didnt come up, so heres my question.

Have you been discriminated against much, and which groups did so most?

Also...about your urethra, was it relocated? If so, man that surgery was complicated...

When I was in the beginning stages of my transformation where I looked very androgynous, people would stare and were rather short and rude. The biggest discrimination would always come from the Christians, they always had something to say and there judgemental looks did not need words attached to them. I find that the fundamentalists do more harm than good for our society, creating an animosity and hate crime environment. They forget the true teachings of Christ. They are the ones that make comments such as "God does not make mistakes, why would you go against Gods plan, et". They know nothing of what God wants, and know less about fetal and brain development. I say put the bible down and start to use your heart for your guide.

The urethra is lengthened and there are many complications that can set in, to include fistulas. It is easier for a man to become a woman, than a woman to become a man as far as the lower surgery is concern. We all start of as Eve in the womb, its not until androgen is introduced that the masculinzation starts to take place. The labia majora becomes the scrotum, ( see the scar line on mens scrotum) the glands clitoris turns into a glans penis. The nipple remain on a man as a reminder of his once female status. Why else would men have nipples, they have no functional use for them?

 

[Red Door]

First of all I suggest you go to the begining of this thread where all those questions have been answered. Second if you are really interested look into my You Tube account where I have taken the time to educate our backwards society who are still stuck on the belief of Adam and Eve. There is more to gender than meets the eye. Gender and sex have two distinct meaning. You cannot compare your race with your gender. You cannot change your race, but due to natures hickups, 1 out of 100 babies are born with some form of gender and sex anamoly. It really irritates me to see such ignorance, and I am not picking on you, but its usually the religious sector that has that kind of mentality. They are lacking the fluidity and knowledge of fetal development. What gives me the right you ask, just as anyone has the right to fix a birth defect, I have the right and the ability to do so. Because we have free will and the knowledge.

That's just pure crap. All of it. You're gender is something you're born with, it's not a mistake. It's the exact same with your race, it's a gene. Your problem is not a mistake, it's a mental condition.

If you were born crossed eyed would you not want to get your eyes corrected, if you were born deaf would you not want to hear? Being born in the wrong body is a biological condition. Now, thanks to modern technology those individuals with gender dysphoria are able to correct their gender/sex misalignment.

You don't get it, you can't be born the "wrong" gender. Your genes determine what you are. If you have a mental condition where you can't see that you're actually a male or female, that's a problem.

Gender is subject to a continuum due to the hormonal influx during 8 weeks gestation. Did you know that we all start out life as a female fetus? Our brains and default system are female, it is not until 8 weeks time when androgen, if the Y chromosome is present, changes the female system to male. But due to endocrine disrupting chemicals, medication or just plain stress, the communication between receptor and genes become faulty, which causes a variety in Gender Identity. I suggest you educate yourself, and yes I did take offense, first by your comparison to race, and second to your thinking of me being born a certain way for a reason. So if your child was born disabled would you leave him or her that way without treatment because they were born that way for a reason?

I did know that. And you got your Y chromosome or you didn't, it's not a choice of yours to make. If my child was born disabled, I'd leave him that way because that's how he was born, that's how the genes worked out. And comparing your mental condition to a disabled child is stupid. Disabled people have an actual problem, while trans-genders just have something wrong in their head. Most people with things wrong in their head get sent to a mental hospital.

 

[Mirc]

Edit: Crosspost....

The biggest discrimination would always come from the Christians, they always had something to say and there judgemental looks did not need words attached to them.

That's probably why you are biased against all Christians.

We all start of as Eve in the womb, its not until androgen is introduced that the masculinzation starts to take place. The labia majora becomes the scrotum, ( see the scar line on mens scrotum) the glands clitoris turns into a glans penis. The nipple remain on a man as a reminder of his once female status. Why else would men have nipples, they have no functional use for them?

I don't believe this. Women have androgen too, just that not as much. Until the action of androgen, people are neither female nor male... Quoting Wikipedia, "Starting at conception and lasting until about 14 weeks, all mammalian fetuses within the same species look the same, regardless of sex".

 

[markangeloc]

No, that's not stupid, that's just a journalistic presentation of facts. What I mean is that until 8 weeks, the brain is not female: it is something that will evolve into either female or male. It might surprise you, but before androgen is secreted, the body is NOT female, because, though it might surprise you, females secret testosterone too! It is secreted by the ovaries, and also in small amounts by the adrenal glands. In females, it also leads to a higher clitoral engorgement frequency. So we can clearly make a conclusion: before the action of androgens, the brain and the body in general is neither male nor female. And yes, in academic terms, that is called a protobrain, or proto-brain.

That article is extremely untrustworthy - look what they say: "For instance, a woman uses about 20,000 words a day while a man uses about 7,000". That has been proved wrong countless times, and it's at the beginning of the article. Why would I trust something else from that article, that goes against what I know, and that I can prove wrong even with my "uneducated" knowledge of fetal development?


So the generalization is white or black (your pick), right? No shade of gray.... I'm afraid, from what I think, that you might be a little biased against religious people.

Of coarse female secrete testosterone too, it does not take a rocket scientist to know that, as well as men secrete estrogen. The dominant hormone in males is testosterone as the dominant hormone in females is estrogen. But before any secretion takes place from the gonads, hormones are introduces by the chromosomes and genes (sry).

This particular article is not the only article and it is proven fact that all brains start out as female brains, but it does not surprise me that you would question it. I think maybe because of your religious belief that Eve was taken from Adam's rib, so how can the brain start out as females, rightr? Wrong, I do not believe we started out by two human beings Adam and Eve. I believe in Evolution. Now you are incorrect about the brain not started out as females. Before any of the gonads or reproductive organs are created the brain is the first to develop and it is by command of the SRY Gene that this change will take place and bathe the brain with testosterone, before the testicles are even formed.

Why would you say the article is extremely untrustworthy? The United States of America is influenced by the religious extremists and our scientist unlike the scientist in Europe are strapped down. The proof is in the pudding, much research has been done in the Netherlands, Spain, and UK. I think I know who might have tried to make the article appear none trust worthy, NARTH or any of the Christian fundamentalist scientists who are constantly trying to prove science wrong, and the bible right.

Oh by the way I am extremely anti religion, I think this world would be a better place without it. All they have proven is that they can hate, discriminate and be very bigoted. I am a spriritual man, and do not believe in the bible. A book that is very contraversial, contradicts itself, promotes slavery, oppression of woman and genocides.

Please share with me this article you say has proven the article I showed you wrong.

 

[markangeloc]

Edit: Crosspost....


That's probably why you are biased against all Christians.



I don't believe this. Women have androgen too, just that not as much. Until the action of androgen, people are neither female nor male... Quoting Wikipedia, "Starting at conception and lasting until about 14 weeks, all mammalian fetuses within the same species look the same, regardless of sex".

Please give me more credible information than wikepedia, any moran could add things to it or change it.

Here are many links with credible information.

http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic2789.htm

http://www.gires.org.uk/Web_Page_Assets/Gender_Dysphoria.htm

http://www.lds-mormon.com/gender1.shtml

http://www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome

 

[Mirc]

Of coarse female secrete testosterone too, it does not take a rocket scientist to know that, as well as men secrete estrogen. The dominant hormone in males is testosterone as the dominant hormone in females is estrogen. But before any secretion takes place from the gonads, hormones are introduces by the chromosomes and genes (sry).

This particular article is not the only article and it is proven fact that all brains start out as female brains, but it does not surprise me that you would question it. I think maybe because of your religious belief that Eve was taken from Adam's rib, so how can the brain start out as females, rightr?

Who says I believe in Creation? I believe the Genesis is a huge metaphor.

Oh by the way I am extremely anti religion, I think this world would be a better place without it. All they have proven is that they can hate, discriminate and be very bigoted. I am a spriritual man, and do not believe in the bible. A book that is very contraversial, contradicts itself, promotes slavery, oppression of woman and genocides.

I observed that... And I really do not have any idea where in the Bible you've seen promotion of genocide and oppression of women (probably Old Testament), but threads like this can easily fall into a religion/atheist or israel/palestine debate, so please let's not go that way.

Please share with me this article you say has proven the article I showed you wrong.

No, you got me wrong, I don't have an article to "prove that one wrong". What I meant is that even I can prove that idea wrong, but of course not in these circumstances (on an online forum, in so little time, etc).

 

[markangeloc]

Sorry about not seeing the video, but they take so long to download I try to avoid them.
I have (you'll be surprised to hear) studied genetics to a small degree, although I did avoid development as much as I could. However, I do know enough to know about various problems with the male development at this stage.
I was making more of a point about semantics: default does not mean original. It does not say anything about the status of the brain before the time of the signal. Until the time for the signal, the brain is neither male nor female.
It then reaches a fork; it can become either male or female. The fact that an active signal is required for it to become male does not make it female before that point. As even the (very opinionated) article to which you linked previously admitted, further development occurs to make it a female brain.

That is not the only article, and it is proven fact, the latest scientific evidence. Read on to the other links I provided.

 

[Brighteye]

Exactly. In this case the dispute is only really about words and not particularly germane to the point at hand.

Words are still important, because misuses and misunderstandings lead to greater confusion and more of the same.
markangeloc still re-iterates that people are female before this period, when it is untrue.
A foetus cannot be male or female before the decision about whether it is male or female is taken, or can be taken. Until this point it could be either.
As I said, I'm quite willing to agree that brain and sex development is not entirely nurture or genetic, but is grossly influenced by hormones. That's not the point.

From one of his links:
'Initially, all human fetuses are female, in that the default pathway is to develop into a female.'
The person initially makes the same statement, but, being honest, feels obliged to explain the more precise position. The default pathway is female, but development into female or male bodies and brains occurs after this point. Before this point the foetus is neither male nor female. If it's such a minor point of semantics that's unimportant for the main thrust of his point, why not let it stand?
I don't know, but I'm eager to find out.

 

[markangeloc]

Who says I believe in Creation? I believe the Genesis is a huge metaphor.


I observed that... And I really do not have any idea where in the Bible you've seen promotion of genocide and oppression of women (probably Old Testament), but threads like this can easily fall into a religion/atheist or israel/palestine debate, so please let's not go that way.


No, you got me wrong, I don't have an article to "prove that one wrong". What I meant is that even I can prove that idea wrong, but of course not in these circumstances (on an online forum, in so little time, etc).

Did you read the other articles? I am sorry I cannot go by what you say, I will go by what the latest scientific evidence proofs, research, et. Remember the world was once thought to be flat, we proved that theory wrong. Please I advice that you do your research on the topic. I have in great depth.

 

[Brighteye]

That is not the only article, and it is proven fact, the latest scientific evidence. Read on to the other links I provided.

I'm not talking about your scientific evidence. I agree with the facts provided (where they are provided). I'm disputing the interpretation that this means that early embryos are female.
Just because they're scientists doesn't mean that they're right (although, of course, they'll be right more often than people who studied arts, who learned to make things up).

 

[mdwh]

That's just pure crap. All of it. You're gender is something you're born with, it's not a mistake. It's the exact same with your race, it's a gene. Your problem is not a mistake, it's a mental condition.

Who shall we believe - experts on the matter, or a random poster on a forum?

No, it's not the same as race - I already addressed this point with my earlier post.

If my child was born disabled, I'd leave him that way because that's how he was born, that's how the genes worked out.

At least your consistent. Many people prefer to fix things, however.

And comparing your mental condition to a disabled child is stupid. Disabled people have an actual problem, while trans-genders just have something wrong in their head. Most people with things wrong in their head get sent to a mental hospital.

Please refrain from insults.

 

[markangeloc]

That's just pure crap. All of it. You're gender is something you're born with, it's not a mistake. It's the exact same with your race, it's a gene. Your problem is not a mistake, it's a mental condition.



You don't get it, you can't be born the "wrong" gender. Your genes determine what you are. If you have a mental condition where you can't see that you're actually a male or female, that's a problem.



I did know that. And you got your Y chromosome or you didn't, it's not a choice of yours to make. If my child was born disabled, I'd leave him that way because that's how he was born, that's how the genes worked out. And comparing your mental condition to a disabled child is stupid. Disabled people have an actual problem, while trans-genders just have something wrong in their head. Most people with things wrong in their head get sent to a mental hospital.

No it is not crap, learn your science, visit the articles do your research as I have. Y chromosome does not make you a man, I have a link on here that explains that too. You are going by old beliefs things have changed, there are new evidence. How many females have XY chromosome, but due to a dormant SRY gene the testicles did not drop and she fell to have male characteristics. As well as how many males are born with XX chromosome?

Your Gender is something you are born with it is hardwired in your brain at 8 weeks gestation. Now the fact lies that Gender and Sex have two distinct meaning and both typically match, but not always. Your gonads, reproductive organs, and genitals are secondary characteristics caused by hormonal bathing, if all goes well in the developmental process your gender (brain) and physical sex ( gonads, reprod, genitals) match.

1 out of 100 or so babies are born with some form of gender/sex identity anomaly.

You are the one that don't get it, I got it, fixed it and learned plenty about it to educate individuals like you.

 

[markangeloc]

I'm not talking about your scientific evidence. I agree with the facts provided (where they are provided). I'm disputing the interpretation that this means that early embryos are female.
Just because they're scientists doesn't mean that they're right (although, of course, they'll be right more often than people who studied arts, who learned to make things up).

Look answer this ,why do men have a line on their scrotum? Why do men have nipples? We all started out as females, it was not unitl testosterone bathed our system that the labia majora closed and became your scrotum. I would put my money on the scientists, they have been doing the research for quite a while. Why is it so difficult for people to believe that we all start out as females, why is it so terrible?

 

[markangeloc]

That's just pure crap. All of it. You're gender is something you're born with, it's not a mistake. It's the exact same with your race, it's a gene. Your problem is not a mistake, it's a mental condition.



You don't get it, you can't be born the "wrong" gender. Your genes determine what you are. If you have a mental condition where you can't see that you're actually a male or female, that's a problem.



I did know that. And you got your Y chromosome or you didn't, it's not a choice of yours to make. If my child was born disabled, I'd leave him that way because that's how he was born, that's how the genes worked out. And comparing your mental condition to a disabled child is stupid. Disabled people have an actual problem, while trans-genders just have something wrong in their head. Most people with things wrong in their head get sent to a mental hospital.

You are impossible and I will not stup down to your level. You are ignorant and know nothing of this matter, it has been proven that Gender dysphoria is not a mental condition but a biological one. I suggest that you put down your bible for just a bit, and pick up some medical journals.

 

[Red Door]

Who shall we believe - experts on the matter, or a random poster on a forum?

I don't consider experts as people with mental conditions.

No, it's not the same as race - I already addressed this point with my earlier post.

At least your consistent. Many people prefer to fix things, however.

Yes, it is. Your race and gender are both determined by your parents and genes.

No it is not crap, learn your science, visit the articles do your research as I have. Y chromosome does not make you a man, I have a link on here that explains that too. You are going by old beliefs things have changed, there are new evidence. How many females have XY chromosome, but due to a dormant SRY gene the testicles did not drop and she fell to have male characteristics. As well as how many males are born with XX chromosome?

Not many, but this does not mean they are not women or men. They still are, and they display some signs of those extra chromosomes.

Your Gender is something you are born with it is hardwired in your brain at 8 weeks gestation. Now the fact lies that Gender and Sex have two distinct meaning and both typically match, but not always. Your gonads, reproductive organs, and genitals are secondary characteristics caused by hormonal bathing, if all goes well in the developmental process your gender (brain) and physical sex ( gonads, reprod, genitals) match.

1 out of 100 or so babies are born with some form of gender/sex identity anomaly.

And so what? You still are the sex you were born with.

You are the one that don't get it, I got it, fixed it and learned plenty about it to educate individuals like you.

You didn't have a physical problem. All you did was have a mental condition, and you tried a physical change, and you think you've "cured" yourself. But, you still have that mental condition, and I suggest you get it checked.

You are impossible and I will not stup down to your level. You are ignorant and know nothing of this matter, it has been proven that Gender dysphoria is not a mental condition but a biological one. I suggest that you put down your bible for just a bit, and pick up some medical journals.

Bible? I don't use a Bible, it's not a science manual, and I don't treat as such. I look at this with a reasonable angle, and can see that your gender is not a problem or something that was a mistake. Only people with the mental condition that says it is (not saying it's a bad mental condition, but it still is).