Ask a Turk

[knigh+]

I'm not familiar with what happened between Turks and Armenians, but:

this is a very "strange" comment. I don't know how Turkey could be considered more civilized than Germany, UK, Italy, and all other EU countries.

And yes I read the whole post.

I did not say Turkey is more civilized than any of the EU countries. I said "some Europeans" not "some European countries". I was being sarcastic there, in response to various bills (French was not the first one) in Europe, condemning a nation without even allowing them to defend themselves. The point is, everybody deserves a fair trial.

 

[knigh+]

On EU...

I don't think Turkey will join in the end. This is because in 1999 EU support in Turkey was 75-80%, but with the way EU unofficially treated Turkey in the last couple of years, the support is now something like 60%. I don't see anything that can stop this plunge. Best predictions for Turkey's membership is 2015. You do the extrapolation.

Personally I am divided, as I believe many Turks are. Here are the two aspects of this, both resulting from national pride:
1- We are begging to enter a club, and even if we enter, they'll have their prejudices and treat us like a doormat. We might become richer, but I'll rather have my dignity then a possibility of better economy.
2- EU is a bunch of developped countries, and Turkey has been proud of its development level since before WW2. Entering EU is an opportunity to show them we are not the backwards nation they think. (Of course, this is a weaker statement, as there is a clear gradation of development in Turkey. The west is as Spain,Italy,or Greece, while the East is Middle East. And all developmental indicators are a transition from one to other as you go from west to east - with the exception of Ankara, which is more modern than its region.) Besides, if we get in, they can't treat us like crap anymore. I know of Turks getting invited to academic conferences in Europe, all expenses paid, but being unable go because the embassy snobs don't give them visa.
Europeans get Turkish visa after they arrive to Turkey, takes about 15 minutes while they wait for their luggages. Once we are in, little things like this will be equaled.

Lately I am leaning to "no".


Another concern of EU citizens is allowing Turkey the say its population deserves. I don't see why it is a problem. EU is an economic union, so They can change their rules so that EU parliament seats are proportional to the GDP rather than population. Than Turkey will have 1/3 votes of France rather than 1.2 times it, and everybody should live happily ever after.

 

[knigh+]

On radical Islam...

It seems to be slightly on the rise, but so does extreme secularism, or even atheism. So the correct way to put it is that Turkey is getting increasingly polarized as far as secularism is concerned.

Still I think the majority is the middle bunch of muslims of varying degrees of devoutness and secularism (these are not mutually exclusive, you can be both).

 

[Bill3000]

Personally I think Kurds should be able to declare their independence from Iraq, but not Turkey. Most Kurds in Turkey don't even want independence (as the election results show periodically).

Uh...

Following these events, the existence of distinct ethnic groups like Kurds in Turkey was officially denied and any expression by the Kurds of their ethnic identity was harshly repressed. Until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language — although widespread — was illegal. As a result of reforms inspired by the EU, music, radio and television broadcasts in Kurdish are now allowed albeit with severe time restrictions (for example, radio broadcasts can be no longer than sixty minutes per day nor constitute more than five hours per week while television broadcasts are subject to even greater restrictions). Additionally, education in Kurdish is now permitted though only in private institutions.

Nevertheless, as late as 1994, Leyla Zana, the first female Kurdish representative in the Turkey's Parliament, was charged for separatist speech and sentenced to 15 years in prison. At her inauguration as an MP, she reportedly identified herself as a Kurd. Amnesty International reported "She took the oath of loyalty in Turkish, as required by law, then added in Kurdish, 'I shall struggle so that the Kurdish and Turkish peoples may live together in a democratic framework.' Parliament erupted with shouts of 'Separatist', 'Terrorist', and 'Arrest her."
That doesn't sound like "Kurds don't even want independence" to me!

Turkey being against an Iraqi Kurdistan is akin to Greece not recognizing Macedonia on the grounds that they have a province with the same name, which is an often ridiculed Greek behavior in Turkish media.

*yawn* The ethnicity in Iraqi Kurdistan is Kurdish. There are Kurds in Turkey. Meanwhile, the "Macedonian" identity doesn't exist in Greece, and besides, the entire Macedonian slavic identity was a constucted one by Yugoslavia. There's a difference between a artifically broken-up group of the Bulgarians and a natural ethnicity that has never had its own state. As well, the greeks have a right to be dispealed, as Macedonia was part of their own cultural identity. The Turks never had a group of people called "Kurds" as part of their ethnical identity - they are in completely different language groups, to begin with!

 

[knigh+]

Uh...

quoteFollowing these events, the existence of distinct ethnic groups like Kurds in Turkey was officially denied and any expression by the Kurds of their ethnic identity was harshly repressed. Until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language — although widespread — was illegal. As a result of reforms inspired by the EU, music, radio and television broadcasts in Kurdish are now allowed albeit with severe time restrictions (for example, radio broadcasts can be no longer than sixty minutes per day nor constitute more than five hours per week while television broadcasts are subject to even greater restrictions). Additionally, education in Kurdish is now permitted though only in private institutions.

That's why my comment starts with the word "personally". I don't agree with most of the ways Kurds were treated in the past.

Nevertheless, as late as 1994, Leyla Zana, the first female Kurdish representative in the Turkey's Parliament, was charged for separatist speech and sentenced to 15 years in prison. At her inauguration as an MP, she reportedly identified herself as a Kurd. Amnesty International reported "She took the oath of loyalty in Turkish, as required by law, then added in Kurdish, 'I shall struggle so that the Kurdish and Turkish peoples may live together in a democratic framework.' Parliament erupted with shouts of 'Separatist', 'Terrorist', and 'Arrest her."
That doesn't sound like "Kurds don't even want independence" to me!

Kurds are about 12% of Turkey; while the separatist party, including Leyla Zana, consistently gets about 5% vote. Therefore, majority of Kurds don't want independence.

Parliamentarians don't say whatever they feel like during their oath ceremony. People would criticise if she said 2+2 is 4 in Turkish. Leyla Zana said something that the rest of the parliament did not understand, and this happened at peak times of terrorist activity. And she came to the podium wearing a PKK flag headband. As far as most MPs were concerned at that moment, she might have said "viva PKK, death to Turkey". I see her neither as a separatist nor a representative of Kurds. If she was either, she would say her oath like normal people instead of being an anarchist. Then she could say her comment (which is a nice reasonable wish - not even against the stupid law#301) in a press conference, and then work for Turkish-Kurdish harmony. She chose to act like an anarchist, so she was treated like one.

*yawn* The ethnicity in Iraqi Kurdistan is Kurdish. There are Kurds in Turkey. Meanwhile, the "Macedonian" identity doesn't exist in Greece,

Yes, this would be my comment if I wanted to justify Turkey's not recognizing Iraqi Kurdistan. But I am not trying to do that. I think both should be independent and recognized.

and besides, the entire Macedonian slavic identity was a constucted one by Yugoslavia. There's a difference between a artifically broken-up group of the Bulgarians and a natural ethnicity that has never had its own state. As well, the greeks have a right to be dispealed, as Macedonia was part of their own cultural identity. The Turks never had a group of people called "Kurds" as part of their ethnical identity - they are in completely different language groups, to begin with!

So by your logic US, Australia, or none of the South American countries should have become independant from Europe?

It is not a matter of history, geneology or linguistics. Macedons and Kurds both view themselves as distinct nationalities, they have a chunk of land they control/administer and are the majority in their lands. They should be able to become independant countries in my opinion.


edit: I mentioned Macedonia situation as an example I thought is similar. I think the two situations are similar, you think not, everybody is entitled to their opinion. Just keep in mind that this is a Turkey thread, in case you intend to extensively explain the Greek position about Macedonia here.

 

[Kyriakos]

It is not a matter of history, geneology or linguistics. Macedons and Kurds both view themselves as distinct nationalities, they have a chunk of land they control/administer and are the majority in their lands. They should be able to become independant countries in my opinion.

Very strange sentence. 'Macedons' ( ) already have their own country, so i do not see what you mean; last time i checked the FYR of Macedonia was still a country.
Kurds should get a country, but i do not see why a part of it shouldnt come from Turkey, since they are a majority in eastern Turkey as well.

btw: i hope that you do realise that slav macedonians are different than greek people in the greek region of Macedonia (where i live as well). There is no slav macedonian minority here; afterall FYR Macedonia is a small country of less people than those living in the greek province of Macedonia -almost less than those living in Thessalonike alone. If you also count the considerable albanian minority (?) in FYROM, then you can do the math yourself.

 

[knigh+]

Very strange sentence. 'Macedons' ( ) already have their own country, so i do not see what you mean; last time i checked the FYR of Macedonia was still a country.

Of course it is. Some Greeks think it isn't, that's what I mean. Turks not recognizing a possible Kurdish independance in Northern Iraq is akin to Greeks not recognizing Macedonia was all I said.

Macedonia has nothing to do with this thread other than my mention for the sake of similarity, so let's stop talking about that. If anyone wants to talk about it, they can start a new thread.

Kurds should get a country, but i do not see why a part of it shouldnt come from Turkey, since they are a majority in eastern Turkey as well.

If they wanted, yes. But as of the last several elections, most of them don't.

 

[GenMarshall]

Just curious, what is the offical or de facto language of Turkey?

 

[Kyriakos]

Ok, i do not mean to be off-topic (although i do not see how asking questions is off-topic since the thread is about asking turks questions ) but i really do not see the analogy. Fyr Macedonia was not part of Greece. The closest it has been to being part of Greece (by this i mean the country that came into existence at 1830) was in the first balcan war, where the original plan of the palace was to march towards what now is sourthern FYR Macedonia. Of course the land was part of the byzantine empire, but the only realistic claim would have been in a small part of the south, due to a still existant at the time of the campaign (1912) greek population, mostly in Monastiri (Vitola).

Greece has no territorial claim in the country of FYR Macedonia, and it never had. There was only the dispute over the name. However i think that the better approach would have been to not be of the view that western europeans are so gullible that they would identify the new country in the central balkans as some sort of heir of the ancient macedonian history. Nowdays this issue has mostly died i think, although the name dispute has not been solved. Slavic Macedonia had been one of the late suggestions, but there had been no agreement.
On the contrary Kurdistan is not an existant country, and it has claims on land which currently is in Turkey. See the difference?

 

[knigh+]

Just curious, what is the offical or de facto language of Turkey?

both are Turkish

other de facto (de facto means in reality) languages are Kurdish, and very small minorities (20000-30000 each) of Greek, Armenian, a form of Spanish spoken by the Jews, and Arabic. But all the small minorities and almost all Kurds also speak Turkish as well as native language. Only very remote Kurdish villages don't speak Turkish.

There are also some immigrants from England, Russia and various east European and African countries, who each speak their languages. But these are not many.

There is also a language made up of whistles, used in some rural areas of eastern black sea coast to communicate over large distances.

 

[knigh+]

Greece has no territorial claim in the country of FYR Macedonia, and it never had. There was only the dispute over the name. However i think that the better approach would have been to not be of the view that western europeans are so gullible that they would identify the new country in the central balkans as some sort of heir of the ancient macedonian history. Nowdays this issue has mostly died i think, although the name dispute has not been solved. Slavic Macedonia had been one of the late suggestions, but there had been no agreement.
On the contrary Kurdistan is not an existant country, and it has claims on land which currently is in Turkey. See the difference?

Which part of "Independence of Kurdistan in Northern Iraq" don't you understand?

quoting you and changing country names

Turkey has no territorial claim in Northern Iraq, and it never had since WW1. There was only the dispute over the name. However i think that the better approach would have been to not be of the view that western europeans are so gullible that they would identify the new country in northern Iraq as some sort of beacon of independence for Kurds in Turkey. The issue is mostly developing silently, although the name dispute has not been solved. There had been no suggestions, and there had been no agreement.
Besides (Iraqi) Kurdistan is an existant almost-independant country with its administration, army, airlines etc, and it doesn't have claims on land which currently is in Turkey. See the similarity?

 

[knigh+]

btw: i hope that you do realise that slav macedonians are different than greek people in the greek region of Macedonia (where i live as well). There is no slav macedonian minority here; afterall FYR Macedonia is a small country of less people than those living in the greek province of Macedonia -almost less than those living in Thessalonike alone. If you also count the considerable albanian minority (?) in FYROM, then you can do the math yourself.

So what you are saying is it makes more sense Turks not wanting the name "Kurdistan" in Northern Iraq, compared to Greeks not wanting the name "Macedonia" in...well...Macedonia?

I agree. But even that is not enough for Turks to oppose independance of Iraqi Kurds, in my opinion.

 

[Kyriakos]

The huge difference being that there are over 10 million kurds in Turkey, and not more than hundreds of slav macedonians (if any) in Greece

 

[knigh+]

The huge difference being that there are over 10 million kurds in Turkey, and not more than hundreds of slav macedonians (if any) in Greece

see post 92

besides I did not say they are the same. I said the two cases are similar. That means they have some similarities and some differences. For the point I was making (i.e. my disapproval of Turkish opposition to independence of Iraqi Kurds being equivalent to Turks' disapproval of Greece's refusal to recognize Macedonia), the similarities are more relevant than the differences.

 

[Kyriakos]

I do not think that there is any important similarity.

Differences:

1)The kurdish civilization is not of popular cultural interest to anyone other than the kurds. I would be very surprised if any turks were interested either, but definately anyone would understand that there is no connection to the interest in ancient Macedonia. Obviously the interest fromthe turkish side is not of a cultural value of a name, but of its possible implications in separatism.

2) Already mentioned massive kurdish population in Turkey; and no considerable statistically population of slav macedonians in Greece.

3) Real grounds for seperatism in Turkey; nothing of the sort in Greece

So i do not see what exactly your point was for presenting the FYR Macedonia issue as something similar.

 

[Jawz II]

kurds and greeks and armenians hate turks (generally speaking). well done.

how did you guys manage that?

 

[knigh+]

I do not think that there is any important similarity.
So i do not see what exactly your point was for presenting the FYR Macedonia issue as something similar.

That is your opinion. post 94 is very clear:

"my disapproval of Turkish opposition to independence of Iraqi Kurds being equivalent to Turks' disapproval of Greece's refusal to recognize Macedonia"


Can we agree to disagree and stop hijacking the thread. I want to answer questions and remedy people's misconceptions of Turkey here, rather than being a side in Greek-Macedon argument. That's why the thread is called "Ask a Turk"

 

[knigh+]

kurds and greeks and armenians hate turks (generally speaking). well done.

how did you guys manage that?

The important thing is Turks don't hate any of them.

 

[knigh+]

Turkey is the country with

1- Highest tea consumption per capita.
2- Highest bread consumption per capita.
3- 74% of world's hazelnut production.
4- 25% (highest fraction) of world fig production.
5- 18% (highest fraction) of world apricot production.
6- 64% of known Boron reserves
7- 40% (highest fraction) of known Marble reserves
8- Almost all known meerschaum reserves
9- Oldest fortified settlement (Catalhoyuk, pop.10000 c.7500BC)
10- First female military pilot

 

[Winner]

Another concern of EU citizens is allowing Turkey the say its population deserves. I don't see why it is a problem. EU is an economic union, so They can change their rules so that EU parliament seats are proportional to the GDP rather than population. Than Turkey will have 1/3 votes of France rather than 1.2 times it, and everybody should live happily ever after.

EU is clearly trying to become a political union and Turkey's membership would bury such hopes forever.

To form a federation, we need a common European identity. Most Europeans do, even if they often don't admit that, acknowledge they are parts of greater European family of nations. The problem is that by instict, they don't see Turkey as a member of this family.

We can't make people feel European, if that would mean acknowledging Turkey as an integral part of European identity.

Partnership? Yes. Cooperation? Yes. Memebership? No, sorry. It was stupid from us to promise you that and we know that.