It's easy to shoot down a lot of the alternatives, but not easy to hold it by anything other than an appeal to the simple option - which is usually sensible, but hardly ideal
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It's easy to shoot down a lot of the alternatives, but not easy to hold it by anything other than an appeal to the simple option - which is usually sensible, but hardly ideal
Akka
Moody old mage.
Especially it's been proved to be logically absurd about twenty times in this thread alone.
Akka
Moody old mage.
There is only one better option, and it's the entirely abstract "mathematical proof", which exist only in the world of concept.
EVERYTHING in this world is based on "the most simple and probably option". So maybe not ideal in the strictest meaning, but hardly a second-rate deal.
Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
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In theory perhap, but its attackers are also usually the least likely in the world to recognise a rational argument. So your successful defence is only ever successful in the eyes of an outside observer, not the people you're arguing with. I'd say it's simultaneously the easiest thing in the world to defend, and also the least likely to be defended to the satisfaction of the attacker.
Oh, of course, but normally it comes from considering the evidence and going with what it most seems to suggest. The evidence that I use to know God exists would be completely meaningless to you, so the common-ground evidence is nothing - the simplest option therefore is no god, but that's not a very solid conclusion since it's backed up by a grand total of nothing. It's only the best idea because the other one has just as much evidence and requires defining more terms. Hence why to a religious person who doesn't see a conflict between God and science belief in him is actually the most rational position; I think that he in some way has affected my life, and however small the possibility is that I'm right about that it's still bigger than nothing.
Is it really worth trying to convert the heathen, though?
timtofly
One Day
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Isn't the point of defense to "keep" something? I mean a person could lie and "state" their opinion has changed. However unless the defender states otherwise, only he knows if his defense is solid or not. I could state that I need no defense at all. My mind is steadfast. Would any one be able on the "outside" to tell a difference?
An attack is the ability to change another's point of view. In an "ask a" thread it can either be a debate, genuine interest, or if someone is savvy enough a way to get through the defenses. That is why we let our children ask questions, is it not?
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
I don't think many arguments made here is going to sway someone one way or the other. Especially when we're talking about belief and faith. Don't need evidence for it, doesn't need to subject to logic so isn't threatened by either.
I respectfully disagree. I mean one needs some sort of evidence to have faith in something like God atleast thats the case with me. Also faith can be increased rarely without something to suppor it. Say I feel subtle peace or widening of my consciousness - that I consider something solid to support my beliefe of existence of some inner reality.
As for logic you are probably right. If having the same thing in the same time in two different places is unlogical then God the omnipresent is indeed unlogical or beyond logic.
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
I don't really talk about it, so it's not usually an issue. If I were to talk about it, yeah, there are some situations that would get uncomfortable. It's only happened a few times. I live in a relatively tolerant part of the country, I'm sure Arkansas would be worse.
There's a lot of crap to wade through, yeah.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
True. I meant the evidence of the objective kind. The falsifiable kind.
There is none to be had with regard to theism.
civ-addicted
King
What are you going to tell your children about religion?
Frozen In Ice
Emperor
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Not sure if it's been asked before, but:
If there is/are no god(s) or divine beings of higher power, do you believe that means all the workings of the universe can be explained by the laws of physics and science? If these laws are what truely defined the universe, does that mean that nothing is actually "random" in a sense because everything is following set laws?
If there is/are no god(s) or divine beings of higher power, do you believe that means all the workings of the universe can be explained by the laws of physics and science? If these laws are what truely defined the universe, does that mean that nothing is actually "random" in a sense because everything is following set laws?
Well, since I'm currently 17 I think I'll just cross that bridge when I come to it
If I were to somehow have one soon, I'd want them to examine all possibilities and not just blindly accept whatever people tell them and do my best to parent them in this fashion, but I think my answer will change in another 8 years or so when I'll be much more likely to seriously consider children in my life.
bathsheba666
Fast 'n Bulbous
No need. He was intelligent enough to work it out for himself.
At six, we had a deputation from the other parents at the school asking if there was any way he could refrain from telling the others that Father Christmas does not exist. A year later it was the other bearded one who got the treatment.
Were it necessary, I would explain it was a classic example of an corporate attempt to control the populace. The peasants can put up with the garbage on this planet because they get fluffy friendly fairyland next time.
bathsheba666
Fast 'n Bulbous
Of course, the 'set' laws could be random ones for this universe only.
We tell them we don't believe.
Would you do anything to allow them a freer choice of personal beliefs, though - clearly growing up in a household where the parents are of a particular religion or lack thereof makes you more likely to follow that belief system, so would you do anything to counteract this and make their religion a 'freer' choice?
Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
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I don't think there's any particular need. Unless they're home-schooled or never allowed out they'll come across the concept of religion and learn things about it in the outside world, then come and ask any questions they want to. I never had any exposure to anything particularly religious at home, only at school. I certainly wouldn't feel the need to teach them anything about things that I consider to be nonsense.
Akka
Moody old mage.
The conclusion that I broke a window because I hurled a stone in it is also backed up by a grand total of nothing (after all, it could be a invisible space pirate that broke the windows a split second before the stone reached it).
The simplest explanation seems quite obviously the best, though.
It's maybe be bigger than nothing, but your idea that there is "nothing" to back the inexistence of God is already wrong to begin with (because it's not based on "nothing", but on the most probable outcome of what the actual data about the universe tells us, which is FAR more than nothing) and prove a large amount of personal bias, making very doubtful that these "proofs" are actually more than wishful thinking.
The funny fact that human psyche can explain much better and more precisely the countless contradictions and effect of what is supposed to be God is already a big hint that he's a human psychological construct.
Akka
Moody old mage.
No, and it's precisely why (and how) religions are so entrenched into people and absurd ideas like creationisms still exist despite the overwhelming evidences.
Beliefs just need the desire to believe, not any actual evidence. What sustain faith is much more the psyche than any outside proofs or reasoning. This is why there is so much extremely far-stretched reasoning from people who hold them fast, but who would laugh and ridicule them if they were applied to anything else than what they staunchly want to believe true.
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