Auric alignment discussion

[Rainbowsand]

It seems intuitively improper to me that Auric 'Wolfin' (another questionable - is that his human part story trait/family denomination?) labeled on alignment scale - lacking D&D lawful/chaotic to become a grid btw - as evil.

Thus with following arguments i plead to denominate Auric' alignment as "neutral".
(more precisely, as lawful neutral with leaning towards lawful evil, but as existant system lacks such a subtlety...)

 

[Rainbowsand]

Some arguments pro and contra go as follows:

- Auric' agenda is the restoration of Illians' power to assist him in his ascendancy to the position of the God of Winter. Almost a citation. Basically it is a step to restore the divine power balance shattered by multiple godslayings, analogical for Cernunnos stepping in to replace slain Sucellus (yet another question - who of them is also known as Cenarius? ) I am unsure whether he intends to again bring the world into the total and disbalancing winter - if he does not, his goal imo (which is based on D&D definition of 'true neutral' alignment) qualifies as neutral with leaning towards the good.

- Atrocities committed by Auric himself and Illians altogether that i had found in presented texts do include: leaving heavily wounded men in snow - lack of compassion but also lack of malevolence (such as torturing them before leaving or eating them alive) - act once again qualifies as neutral; training frost giant upon the captured prisoners - act of evil as necessary as any living weapon production, war horses, mammoths, other beasts of war. Btw, war itself in D&D is nominated as a neutral act.

- Ascendancy to power is generally regarded as evil (by everyone who already have it - the classical example may be Spell of Mastery from MoM).

- Ice as elemental power lies on the planes of neutrality.

- Auril, the Forgotten Realms goddesss of frost and cold and such, is labeled as evil - but once again, she desires to spread her icy dominion all over the world(s).

- Ayrin, the Frostweaver dragon, elven worshippers from first and true Spellforce are said to 'possibly no longer be the followers of Light' - so wielding ice power alone is but a reason for doubt about categorizing them as good or neutral.

- I haven't found any evidence of Auric' and Illians' allegiance towards Agares and demonic forces (even Mulcarn himself, as i perceive it, was hoodwinked but not corrupted) which apparently serves as the primary characteristic in FfH to qualify for 'EVIL'.

- Gameplay reason: when i played Illians in all-civs-present mode on huge map, my best relations were with goods and neutrals, even despite my "evil" mark, simply because they were not interfering with my slow amassing of power in form of expansionist/perfectionist global strategy (how else is it expedient to research and build that Ascension project?) and often even helpful by providing trade, recon and resources while evils were quite detrimental to my cause by casting their global spells and attempting conquests upon my territory.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=264496&page=152

 

[TC01]

Auric is more evil than Mulcarn (at least, so I remember from reading the last MC post on this). Mulcarn may have been the least evil of the evil gods but he was still evil.

- Ascendancy to power is generally regarded as evil (by everyone who already have it - the classical example may be Spell of Mastery from MoM).

- Ice as elemental power lies on the planes of neutrality.

- Auril, the Forgotten Realms goddesss of frost and cold and such, is labeled as evil - but once again, she desires to spread her icy dominion all over the world(s).

- Ayrin, the Frostweaver dragon, elven worshippers from first and true Spellforce are said to 'possibly no longer be the followers of Light' - so wielding ice power alone is but a reason for doubt about categorizing them as good or neutral.

I should point out that you can't compare the Ice sphere in FFH to Ice in other universes. For instance, someone once complained about vampires not being undead, since they're "obviously always undead"- but in truth in Erebus, vampires aren't undead.

- I haven't found any evidence of Auric' and Illians' allegiance towards Agares and demonic forces (even Mulcarn himself, as i perceive it, was hoodwinked but not corrupted) which apparently serves as the primary characteristic in FfH to qualify for 'EVIL'.

No, it's the fact that Mulcarn rebelled against the One that makes him evil. In doing so, he did work with/serve Agares in the Age of Dragons. Mulcarn was corrupted, simply because he did turn against the One. Even if he was tricked into doing so.

Further, Agares at least partially supported Mulcarn's plan of an Age of Ice, as he was the one who convinced Bhall to fall- which took Mulcarn's main enemy out of the way allowing him to enter Creation. (There's a discussion in the Age of Ice pedia- it's Mulcarn's entry, I believe).

- Auric' agenda is the restoration of Illians' power to assist him in his ascendancy to the position of the God of Winter. Almost a citation. Basically it is a step to restore the divine power balance shattered by multiple godslayings, analogical for Cernunnos stepping in to replace slain Sucellus (yet another question - who of them is also known as Cenarius? ) I am unsure whether he intends to again bring the world into the total and disbalancing winter - if he does not, his goal imo (which is based on D&D definition of 'true neutral' alignment) qualifies as neutral with leaning towards the good.

He intends another Age of Ice, yes.


May I ask- have you played the Auric scenarios? Because a lot of this stuff is established there, including his evil acts (killing Cassiel to empower his ritual and throwing Tasunke to be eaten by a reborn Drifa after he hired Tasunke to hunt down the pieces of Barnaxus) and his intentions (the reason everyone tries to stop him is because his Ascension is going to unbalance things and create another Ice Age).

 

[Valkrionn]

Auric is very much Lawful Evil.... Too many of his actions in the scenarios (which are canon, unlike the sources you mentioned, which really have nothing to do with FfH) were evil to make him anything else.

Now, when he was younger I'd say neutral. But it looks like, as his power grew, he became progressively more evil.

 

[cyther]

Ascendancy to power is generally regarded as evil

It requires the souls of possibly millions to ascend to godhood. It is like a vampire ritual that consumes entire nations.

 

[Mailbox]

It requires the souls of possibly millions to ascend to godhood. It is like a vampire ritual that consumes entire nations.

Yep. Auric isn't just killing scores of people from other nations, he's sacrificing his own people to reach his goals.

(a little off topic but I still think that's what happened to the Aifons and why a tiny backwater nation like the Illians could summon Mulcarn)

I'd also like to take this thread to comment on Auric's bipolar disorder. The constant depressive sleeping, the manic spurts of genius, it's all very well handled and written.

 

[cypher132]

In my opinion, I think Auric is neutral. However, due to his bipolar and most likely some other type of disorder (schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder) he tends to act far more evil than he probably would without it. If we were using the D&D alignment chart, I would say he's either Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil.
Lawful because the Illians try to keep things the way they are, thus laws are required to keep things stable.
Neutral because I believe Auric might have turned out better if he had not been touched by Mulcarn.
Those, these are just my opinions. Just take them as you will.

 

[Valkrionn]

I agree that he would have been better (was a good kid, from what I've read), but the fact remains that Auric the leader did not turn out that way, and was touched by the Precept of Ice. Given his actions, he became evil, even if he did not begin that way.

 

[cypher132]

I agree that he would have been better (was a good kid, from what I've read), but the fact remains that Auric the leader did not turn out that way, and was touched by the Precept of Ice. Given his actions, he became evil, even if he did not begin that way.

I had neglected to leave out the phrase "Despite him possibly being bipolar, among other things, it was still Auric that made the choices to kill Cassiel, Tasunke, and try to bring about a new Ice Age."

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Back when Auric was but a boy living on the Ulvin family farm in the outskirts of the remote Illian village of Brigdarrow with his parents Joshua and Harna he was not at all a bad guy. He remained a descent fallow after their brutal death, when he brought down the Veil of Shadows while help Kirien, Varn Gossam, and Varn's future wife Talia escape from the forces of Haerlond and the machinations of Waldrun, even if by then he had already studied the tome that taught him of Mulcarn, the location of Letum Frigus, and perhaps some rituals needed for his ascension.


The essence of Ice is actually nostalgia, the desire to resist change and return to an idealized past (which is usually quite different from what an objective view of history would show). For Mulcarn, The One taking away the power to create ex nihilo was an unwelcome change that he very much wanted to undo, hence his rebellion. However, his resistance to change made him unwilling to undergo the extensive corruption of his fellow evil gods. he became a little harsher, but never reached levels of evil that his allies did. He still recognized that winter was but one of many important elements of creation, the rest period needed in order to allow another period of growth rather than leading to exhaustion and stagnation. While part of him still wished Man had never been created (both because of our typically dynamic natures and because it was our creation that led to the godwar that changed everything in Erebus), he was also rather jealous of the worship his brethren received, and wanted it for himself. Over time he came to believe that Man was better in the primitive but innocent state they were in in the Age of Dragons, back when they had terrible forces of nature to fear and had not yet taken it upon themselves to terrorize each other as they did in the wars of the Age of Magic. The Age of Winter was in large part meant to make man back to a simpler, more innocent time, punishing the wicked and keeping societies small enough that each member could care for his neighbors rather than try to dominate them.


Mulcarn and Agares did plot together to cause Bhall's fall and facilitate his invasion. However, I believe that had Mulcarn survived he may very well have rebelled against Agares, on account of Agares growing alliance with his old enemy.


Auric Ulvin knows nothing of The One, so when the Precept of ice dominates him he cannot hearken back to that true golden age. His knowledge of Mulcarn is largely tainted by the tales of those who feared him, so the god he idolizes and wishes to become is not the wise but cranky old Mulcarn whom the gods knew but a far more malevolent deity. Nostalgia tend to exaggerate traits, making the ascending Auric more malevolent than his predecessor.


(Auric's path to power is clearly an evil one, but I like to think it could be possible for the precept to be redeemed in other circumstances. I often like to imagine Basium taking up the sphere after Auric's failed attempt. His desire to cling to the godswar is definitely part of Life (persistence), but it is not far from Ice (nostalgia). Basium also hates Sucellus.The resulting God of Ice would not be what most of us would call Good, but he certainly would not side with Agares.)


On my computer I just changed iti so that Auric begins Neutral but turns evil with the completion of The White Hand ritual. I had meant to make this change before my last release, but forgot.

 

[Rainbowsand]

So i was correct at perceiving Auric as neutral at the start of the game.

It requires the souls of possibly millions to ascend to godhood. It is like a vampire ritual that consumes entire nations.

As i perceive it, The Draw is but a massive siphoning of energy from the surroundings towards the ritual's conducting point. That is, everyone caught in its radius gets severely weakened from the drain, to the point of death if weak enough, but their souls do remain intact. So technically this act is no more atrocious than getting those people killed in a conventional war for the sake of territorial ownership. The main reason for all the other leaders declaring war on Auric is as i said it similar to casting Spell of Mastery in MoM: the deadly threat to their dominions. While what i do presume i know of the 'vampire rituals' which imo are a subcategory of warlock methodics that they do include a complete devouring of souls.

I should point out that you can't compare the Ice sphere in FFH to Ice in other universes. For instance, someone once complained about vampires not being undead, since they're "obviously always undead"- but in truth in Erebus, vampires aren't undead.

Obviously i can because thats what i did. No terrible consequences so far observed.
And as the FfH is a direct derivation (and, i daresay, a deviation) from FR which is in turn derived from something that was that was, these 'different' objects and names are but facets of one. In regard to the vampires, that definition is so uncertain and being used so loosely as to be applied on multitude of entirely different beings (i myself was once observed on suspicion of being one) so any argument on that is pointless, as some of thus named are undead, and some are not.

Because i get a little bit confused, in order to continue this discussion i ask Magister Cultuum for definitions of evil and neutrality regarding FfH specifics.

 

[Valkrionn]

So i was correct at perceiving Auric as neutral at the start of the game.

No, because at the point the game starts he is already in control of the Illians and should be on his way to godhood; At the least, he has the knowledge and the plans. He'd have been neutral at an earlier age, but I don't think he'd be neutral at the age represented in game.

 

[cyther]

As i perceive it, The Draw is but a massive siphoning of energy from the surroundings towards the ritual's conducting point. That is, everyone caught in its radius gets severely weakened from the drain, to the point of death if weak enough, but their souls do remain intact. So technically this act is no more atrocious than getting those people killed in a conventional war for the sake of territorial ownership. The main reason for all the other leaders declaring war on Auric is as i said it similar to casting Spell of Mastery in MoM: the deadly threat to their dominions. While what i do presume i know of the 'vampire rituals' which imo are a subcategory of warlock methodics that they do include a complete devouring of souls.

This is what Kael said about the Draw:

Its a massive ritual powered by the lives of the Illians. The other civs declare war because:

1. Its a very vile unholy act.
2. It will lead to the return of the god of winter, which no one wants.
3. It makes an interesting risk/reward decision for the players ability to create Auric Ascended.

 

[TC01]

I too disagree that Auric should be neutral at the start of the game. I always understood him to be Neutral before his experiences at Letum Frigus, and after that, he becomes evil. (After he consciously decides to reclaim the leadership of the Illians and pursue Ascension). And based on the Return of Winter scenario, it appears that immediately after his experience at Letum Frigus, he becomes leader of the Illians.

Obviously i can because thats what i did. No terrible consequences so far observed.
And as the FfH is a direct derivation (and, i daresay, a deviation) from FR which is in turn derived from something that was that was, these 'different' objects and names are but facets of one. In regard to the vampires, that definition is so uncertain and being used so loosely as to be applied on multitude of entirely different beings (i myself was once observed on suspicion of being one) so any argument on that is pointless, as some of thus named are undead, and some are not.

Allow me to restate.

You can. You can do whatever you like. But it won't help you in this argument. You are trying to use sources not regarded as canon in the Fall from Heaven 2 universe and use them to argue a point about canon in the Fall from Heaven 2 universe.

Further, the sources you are referring to take place in other fantasy worlds. Worlds which you claim heavily inspire FFH 2. But out-of-universe inspiration is different from in-universe connections, and there are none.

 

[Valkrionn]

Allow me to restate.

You can. You can do whatever you like. But it won't help you in this argument. You are trying to use sources not regarded as canon in the Fall from Heaven 2 universe and use them to argue a point about canon in the Fall from Heaven 2 universe.

Further, the sources you are referring to take place in other fantasy worlds. Worlds which you claim heavily inspire FFH 2. But out-of-universe inspiration is different from in-universe connections, and there are none.

Well stated.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Hmm...maybe I should make the Letum Frigus event change his alignment then instead of The White Hand ritual. In my modmod you need to get that in order to get the mortal Auric unit anyway, who is needed for the rituals to work.


Not really relevant, but I just got to thinking that there should be some way to help him find the unique feature. I decided to make the completion of The Celestial Compass trigger cf.showUniqueImprovements(iPlayer), revealing unique features the way it is revealed to the Elohim at the start of the game.

 

[Corlis]

If Auric began as neutral and only went evil after the Draw was done, then I'd probably RP it that completing an Altar victory represented him going after godhood in a good or neutral way; he'd just be moving into the void left by Mulcarn and reverting it to a simple elemental sphere in balance with the rest, not trying to actually bring about another Age of Ice.

 

[Kael]

By the time Auric is leader of the Illians and enters the game (which is after the events MC is referring to) he is evil. Not irredeamable, evil doesn't mean he is some sort of 1 dimensional cartoon villian. In fact Cassiel gave Auric the opportunity to repent and tried to save him, but that didn't end well.

As a leader of the Illian's Auric is driven by one compulsion (ascension) and willing to sacrifice anything along his way to achieve it.

Good leaders seek to bring health and happiness to their people through their own sacrifice (many over the one, Capria), the Neutral try to balance the desires/needs of their people with their own (Falamar) and the Evil use their people as a tool to achieve their own desires (one over the many, Perpentach).

 

[Lone Wolf]

Good leaders seek to bring health and happiness to their people through their own sacrifice (many over the one, Capria), the Neutral try to balance the desires/needs of their people with their own (Falamar) and the Evil use their people as a tool to achieve their own desires (one over the many, Perpentach).

Trough even here there are exceptions to the rule .

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

So Cassiels excuse for being neutral is that he is pretty much ignoring his ppl to waller in his despair and drunkenness?