AW Shucks

[vanatteveldt]

@lymond: what's the hate for 2W? Saving the corn for the ecuadorian city is nice, but that requires building it on the hill south of the dye, which means that it will be stuck working coast or jungle hill until a border pop...

 

[lymond]

Lymond, i thought about it and, clearly, it will become mutch more easy with that option ^^
too easy perhasp...

Not sure I understand you....we are unlikely to win either way....very unlikely. Pretty standard for no tech trading on high level AW games. If you think this game is going to be too easy, you are in for a big surprise.

@van

I did state my reasons clearly before, but I will recap

1) cancels irrigation to both corns
2) Only net gain of 1F. Later a net loss of 2food, then 4 food. (although we will die before BIO)
3) cancels lake
4) cancels 4th decent city (relatively) on the west coast.

(I mentioned "relatively" a lot as the start area is so horrible in the first place...so...relative to that)

building it on the hill south of the dye,

we can build city on the dye

 

[pigswill]

@lymond, I'm not accustomed to such relentless pessimism from you. However I do respect your opinion even if we don't agree about everything so I shall select No Tech Trading when we get round to starting the game.

 

[Manco Capac]

May I join? I looked from my phone while at work and I got interested by the concept.
Not sure I can contribute and provide turnsets in a regular basis...

 

[pigswill]

Yes (10 chars)

 

[lymond]

@lymond, I'm not accustomed to such relentless pessimism from you.

I suck at AW....oh wait!

Tachy!!!! Woot!!!

 

[Manco Capac]

I do think it is winnable. Once Monty (not coastal...da f*ck) and Roosy are dead, we are about to control 1/3 of the world in lands, enough to strike back against other AI's.
Given EMP level and AI utter lack of organization in intercontinental invasion.

I'm looking right now how to strike...

I am agreeing on settling the desert spot to irrigate the plain corn. Food is gonna be important to be saved with such bare lands.

Aw shucks, forgot I need CS first. I might reconsider the settling spot.

 

[Manco Capac]

I attempted some crazy Q strategy, but I was unlucky. It was super nice to use stolen workers as bait while making a sea invasion.

The strategy is basically get Monty capital, then everything goes downward for him as the capital will mass produce Quechuas (super production capital) and if Jags appear at one moment, copper is gonna be connected by second city settled.
The new cities are completely junk for Monty, so basically getting his capital is his doom.

EDIT: Maybe 8 Quechuas are better.

EDIT2: Ok, I have a collateral plan about Monty for the early game. We have lots and lots of jungle to clear before starting to build our economy. Our strip of land is terrible even for producing workers/settlers.
I think a squad of 2 Quechuas in a galley for a extended worker stealing from Monty could be really interesting. It is very easy to snatch over 5 workers, which worth way more than the investment of 2 Q and a galley.

 

[lymond]

Always good to have Tachy's different way of thinking. She's a star! I woulda never thought to Q rush Monty.

 

[Manco Capac]

Q rush is not gonna work btw. But exploiting isolated-from-us Monty is a plus. And resource positions are great for repetitive prey and blocking.

Got a plan:

Settle for both the corns:
Mining -> Wheel -> Fishing -> Sailing -> BW -> IW

I think I'm gonna ignore all wonders for this one. The capital is too poor on production.

I think I have spotted the second city and be assured, that city is gonna be completely protected from barbs at >90% chance.
Good city with crabs (+1 ; so needy for health) inside first culture ring and gold...once IW hit. Two Q are taking care to close the area and ensure the site is safe.
That second city is near Monty (furnish free workers) and use that corn wanted to get for Ecuador. I don't like ecuador because it share with Cuzco, which is already food-poor.

The big problem with Cuzco 2W is the missing fresh water, thus limiting the health cap to 2 pops! Wheel is used to connect gold (higher cap) and the needed corn.

How Tiwanaku is located, it permits later to improve that silver for higher happy cap.
Now, I need to test if barbs go for a single improvement without access to the city.

Spoiler :

And don't forget a good use of mountains as this feature is great for extended sight. Uh, Lymond who spew his cereals over it.

And that "NO TRESPASS" spot between corn and clams is perfect for a third city as we can contain that city inside the safe zone by moving the Q 1SE.

 

[lymond]

Uh, Lymond who spew his cereals over it.

Hey, don't be dissin' my Fruity Pebbles!

Tachy, are you really sure about Cuzco 2W. What advantage does it provide over 2S? The silver won't be connected for a very long time and will be a barb hazard, while 2S basically provides the same production and leaves a whale/corn/silver city for later. Both corn can later be irrigated this way.

I know this is about getting off to the fastest start possible, but I'm not seeing 2W really giving us anything over 2S while then neutralizing food and cities later.

 

[Manco Capac]

Here are my reasons:

• Nearer of Tiwanaku and third city.
• Faster start in a poor start.
• Rest of South American plus North America annexed later will certainly make up a loss of a marginal city. At some point, we'll get over 20 cities.
• Fogbust well for silver access. Just need to test barb behaviour now.

Spoiler :

 

[Manco Capac]

Ok, I finished my test: Barbarians won't bother pillaging an improvement if they can't even get access to one city.

Conclusion: The silver plot is secured.

Very interesting to observe all barbs turning their head towards the small col I liberated from my Q's grip. Even fuegian barbs were having this super sense and once I blocked again, the barbs felt depressed and were roaming aimlessly again.

 

[vanatteveldt]

This is getting interesting. I generally play a southern opening and a slow buildup, but I guess north might be quicker in the long run.

@lymond: Sorry if I missed or misread your earlier posts. I guess using both desert tiles as urban irrigation channels is optimal use of the land west of the Andes. However, it also means a slower start because of a weaker capital early on (4f1h > 3f3c imho) and a required lighthouse for the second food source. If we want to get GLH this is no concern, but still.

I just played a game until 880 AD. I am still colonizing south america, so it is certainly not a quick start. I built GLH and although the commerce is really useful it also messed up my early timing, so I'm sure we can do better. However, I don't doubt that this game is going to meet Lymond's predicted doom.

If we go north I think the best way to guard the silver is to plant a city in the jungle as a barb catcher. We can cut and improve west of that city and assume that most barbs will just attack the city. In my game, I have 8 axemen walking around SA and this easily keeps the barbs under contol, so the barb problem is not horrible; but bronze working is very useful as the barbs I've seen are warriors and axemen, only a single archer (ie, Q's are really worthless).

Edit: crosspost with tachywaxon. Interesting that barbs don't plunder the resource, hadn't expected that. AI behaviour on choke points and mountain-secured areas is really weird...

 

[pigswill]

I'm wondering about city#2 going 1N. It loses corn but that can be used by Ecuador. The main advantage is canal city. We'll benefit from a canal city at some point to swop over atlantic and pacific fleets and settling it early gives us access to the north atlantic coast much earlier.

 

[Manco Capac]

About GLH:

I'm not sure about its power long term.
Poor hammer start and isolated for the whole game (AW parameter) and few islands that are viable for early cities
==> I think it is a bad option.
We have to concentrate on a early spring to kill off both Monty and Roosy while maybe stealing some techs from them. Once America is controlled. I think it is a win.

My expansion has a faulty point: we'll meet both Roosy and Monty quite early, so seeing them building up armies for us and getting friendly to each others is scary though. Especially if Monty gets a religion.

Edit: crosspost with tachywaxon. Interesting that barbs don't plunder the resource, hadn't expected that. AI behaviour on choke points and mountain-secured areas is really weird...

It is a behaviour I knew for a long time, but DanF5771 explained the deep reasons recently and it is basically tied to the barbs abilities to calculate a path to a city for plunder. Barb coming out of random events won't obey to this seclusion...sooo no random events please. Huts on is fine though.

 

[vanatteveldt]

I think whatever we do Monty and Roosevelt will meet up quickly, they generally send out a workboat and contact us. So I don't think that's a disadvantage. What went wrong with the Q rush? Not enough Q?

 

[Manco Capac]

Roosy and Monty aren't the best friends ever, so I was thinking more in terms of Roosy has a delayed contact with us due to Monty blocking coastal route.

We have to think in terms of efficiency of the investment and reward. Given even 8 quechuas have difficulty to conquer that hill capital (which is now walled), the investment of 4 galleys and 8 Q are way too much for a good early shot. If we were fighting only 2 AI's the whole map, that wouldn't matter, but many foes await us and we cannot make too much sacrifices in the economy area.

Monty's capital was the prime target because once gone, he's stuck with many underdevelopped cities that can't pump dangerous units yet (like the soon jag). And IIRC, the AI's use whips only under threat and that is why maps with few production means are easier to win militarily.

Indeed, one city is accessible for attack and a nice forest hill will protect that city from further attacks, but I think thinking snatching workers first are more rewarding, especially with such heavy jungle area.

That city has a clam resource and it is the most southern city to the capital. Funny fact was it was protected by a lone warrior.

@Warrior and Axe barbs only

That's normal; the AI's seem to not start with Archery like normal EMP games. I recall AZmade a supreme impi rush due to that weakness from earth maps. Consequence: AI's get access to archers at the same moment as metal units and thus unlocking axe barbs around the same moment of archers.

 

[Manco Capac]

I simulated a game up to T100.

And look at that...what an asinine Monty. Such a big army, but not even attacking because the only path to the city is blocked. That's a pity.

Spoiler :

 

[astre]

it sound like an interesting plan.
it is true that monty at war with us from start is annoying, so try to bother him asap (before he become a monster) sound appealling to me.

but tachy, when i moved a queshua near monty cap, i saw 5 jags and 5 archer inside.
How can we think to take his cap one day or try not to lose our foothold on northern continent?
play defence only?

IMHO, the problem of the 2S start is that it prevent us from pumping out settler as fast as the 2W start.