vanatteveldt
Emperor
Hmm, that's not my experience. I sent over 6 Q's, but left one in Texcoco and two on the choke point, leaving three to walk around Monty's BFC. When they moved on the mined hill W of his capital they were attacked and killed.
AW Shucks
- Thread starter pigswill
- Start date
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Well, you need to move to the hill/grassland to pillage his improvements, no?
pigswill
fly (one day)
I agree with PPP including tech route. lymond may not be happy with 2W but it does seem to be a majority view.
Maybe play first set up to completing the galley with 2 quechas.
I have in fact prepared a save.
Here's the settings:
For anyone following this who's not familiar with Earth 18 this is our inspiring start:
Maybe play first set up to completing the galley with 2 quechas.
I have in fact prepared a save.
Here's the settings:
For anyone following this who's not familiar with Earth 18 this is our inspiring start:
vanatteveldt
Emperor
OK, I also played 100 turns. Some things seem better, so things seem worse. I've only managed to capture a single worker, the deer and farm remained unimproved, so it seems I'm not playing the chat et souris game very well*. Also I had some bad luck with combat odds (losing two defending Qs in the jungle) and a slave revolt in Alcatraz. As a result I think I founded fewer cities..
Looking at some differences I think I captured Texcoco (or whatever it is called) earlier as I had already built monument and granary there at turn 100.
I did farm - farm - mine - mine, I think it's better to grow Alcatraz (was: Cuzco) to size 4 asap and then do 1 pop whips without granary.
I founded ecuador before colombia: because of the wet corn and grassy hill Ecuador is productive very quickly. It has good timing with the worker (which is done just is time to start on the Alcatraz-Ecuador road; and it can whip a work boat for Colombia by the time Alcatraz produces the second settler.
I did whip a second galley. I'm not sure it is needed, but it makes things a lot easier to have a ferry at each crossing.
* (which, btw, according to wikipedia is actually a translation of the original English idiom. Dutch has it as well, so maybe it is of broader Germanic origin. But whenever I see my cat playing with a mouse he has caught I don't really see it as a very nice or fair game
Looking at some differences I think I captured Texcoco (or whatever it is called) earlier as I had already built monument and granary there at turn 100.
I did farm - farm - mine - mine, I think it's better to grow Alcatraz (was: Cuzco) to size 4 asap and then do 1 pop whips without granary.
I founded ecuador before colombia: because of the wet corn and grassy hill Ecuador is productive very quickly. It has good timing with the worker (which is done just is time to start on the Alcatraz-Ecuador road; and it can whip a work boat for Colombia by the time Alcatraz produces the second settler.
I did whip a second galley. I'm not sure it is needed, but it makes things a lot easier to have a ferry at each crossing.
* (which, btw, according to wikipedia is actually a translation of the original English idiom. Dutch has it as well, so maybe it is of broader Germanic origin. But whenever I see my cat playing with a mouse he has caught I don't really see it as a very nice or fair game
Manco Capac
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will wait more returns on PPP before beginning the set.
btw, quershua are safe to travel in monty land until he get iron...
espetially when settled on forested hill ^^
2 Q are enought to bother him a lot
That's not a truth Monty will get his hands on iron in each game; your game had a different turn compared to mine where he could get access to copper only problably >50 turns once one of his city gets a border pop.
We might get lucky and see Roosy expands that location instead of monty.
@pigswill
Awww shucks I hoped the Q spawned beyond the mountains. It happens sometimes and it is really cool to move efficiently the first settler north.
That's why most of you cannot grab any workers; you scare them.
Yep, that's pretty much what I did. But I think I did a 2 pops whip for the boat. I'll check again what I did.
Including Wheel was indeed important because health cap is terrible.
===========================
What's the order of players? Where am I?
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Two points of PPP discussion from my post above:
1) is farm-mine-farm superior to farm-farm-mine
2) do we want to settle Colombia before Ecuador? (eg galley-settler or settler-galley)
1) is farm-mine-farm superior to farm-farm-mine
2) do we want to settle Colombia before Ecuador? (eg galley-settler or settler-galley)
Manco Capac
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Re
1)
Yep, I just tested it and indeed including the gold mine is superior than farm-farm.
The timing of BW is very important for a fast opening.
What I did is Worker -> Q -> Settler -> Galley until completed -> 1 turn in Q -> whipped settler (one can wait abit though if they want decent OF)
Techs: Mining -> Fishing -> Sailing -> BW -> Wheel
I decided Wheel can wait; we need that boat asap and slavery.
And starting stealing Monty for workers is strong too.
If any questions about worker stealing, ask me. I have a strong experience on that subject.
On T45, the settler is loaded in the galley.
2) I definitely want Colombia first. Same reasons as I stated before.
vanatteveldt
Emperor
Sorry if I missed your reasoning earlier, but all I can find is
Tachywaxon said:
I would place ecuador on the dye, so it does not share a food with Cuzco and can work the corn immediately. Colombia can indeed use the same corn but needs to pop border first, so before columbia becomes useful it needs to build a monument/terrace and a work boat with only the unimproved crabs to work. Doesn't that make it terribly slow to develop?
pigswill
fly (one day)
An Alphabetical Roster
astre UP to start
lymond on deck
nocho
pigswill
r_rolo1 aka rolo
Tachywaxon (is there an acceptable abbreviation?)
vanetteveldt aka van
astre UP to start
lymond on deck
nocho
pigswill
r_rolo1 aka rolo
Tachywaxon (is there an acceptable abbreviation?)
vanetteveldt aka van
as i said before, no city must be founded unless it is a priority.
columbia city does not gain money via recource and do not help us to develop our colonization.
I am to not found a city here.
I'll play tonight up to a ship filled with angry guys !
speak now or forever hold your peace !
columbia city does not gain money via recource and do not help us to develop our colonization.
I am to not found a city here.
I'll play tonight up to a ship filled with angry guys !
speak now or forever hold your peace !
vanatteveldt
Emperor
I'm not convinced but I'll rest my case
did play 48 turns.
got 34 gold from the hut wich was very nice
play the proposed plan:
settle 2W.
production: worker Queshua x3, boat, settler (2 pop whip)
34 hammer floating.
I propose a fish boat for next build (to fully absorb the hammers)
worker buisness:
farm, mine, farm, mine, roads
boat buisness:
put 2 Q on central america and then come back for settler and a Q
qushua buisness:
2 in stand by in central america.
-> do we want to trouble Monty asap or do we want him to be quiet and found a city in the south to be taken?
A Q on the ship to guard the future city
last Q is fog busting on the copper
techs:
mining, fishing, sailing, road, bronze working
IW started for 1 turn.
the next points to discussed:
what to build after settler?
where to settle next city?
what to do with monty?
got 34 gold from the hut wich was very nice
play the proposed plan:
settle 2W.
production: worker Queshua x3, boat, settler (2 pop whip)
34 hammer floating.
I propose a fish boat for next build (to fully absorb the hammers)
worker buisness:
farm, mine, farm, mine, roads
boat buisness:
put 2 Q on central america and then come back for settler and a Q
qushua buisness:
2 in stand by in central america.
-> do we want to trouble Monty asap or do we want him to be quiet and found a city in the south to be taken?
A Q on the ship to guard the future city
last Q is fog busting on the copper
techs:
mining, fishing, sailing, road, bronze working
IW started for 1 turn.
the next points to discussed:
what to build after settler?
where to settle next city?
what to do with monty?
Manco Capac
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@astre
I think where to settle next city and when to attack Monty is closely tied. If we choose to settle by the crabs (and then use OF for WB), we can use the galley to snatch workers amphibiously from Monty and don't worry, Monty will settle Texcoco (IIRC) as long we don't dispatch some Q's next to the settler (triggering flee of the settler).
Targeting Monty early (perhaps before his own slavery civic?) means we deprive him of his workers and destroy his improvements in a moment where Q are least jeopardized.
Earlier the workers are snatched, more arduous and costly it is to Monty to re-train these (without improvement and low pops).
And once IW is hit, those workers will have a non-stop chores. (BTW, I hoped you popped that hut once BW is done for a nice possibility of free IW)
Now, if we settle on dyes for that corn, that prolly means that galley shall be kept around for the next settler by the crabs, which means a delayed worker farming from Monty. I personally prefer to strike Monty early. If we settle that Colombia city, that means a forced WB.
Talking about when the improvement is ready for full output is not a valid argument because corn set up and crabs will met around the same date to be ready. The difference are between 1 more food or 3 more commerces.
And the second argument is the distances. And that is the prime argument that changes affect my city choice.
Because crabs city is a little farther (2 real worth tiles farther), the final cost in city maintenance is -4 (distance and city numbers mixed).
If corn city is settled, then it cost to the incan Tawantinsuyu only -3. I made quick rough calculus and although crabs provide commerce, we get less advanced into IW because of higher cost of city maintenance. With corn city, we reach about the half of IW, while crabs city a bit less.
EDIT: I forgot two other parameters:
workers will improve in a useful way and crabs city take long to settler than corn/dyes city.
Combine crabs furnish less food and higher city mainteance, dyes-corn city wins with flying colors.
Q.E.D.
And we can make OF in use for another settler and then work a WB while growing and then whip two pops for the second settler.
The big problem is how to manage the boats for Monty and the third settler. I think it is possible we don't roam too long in his lands and load the settler from the dye city, more precisely the corn tile after roading and improving the corn.
Van, you were right in your city choice. Well done.
Enfin (still an english word btw),
-Swarm Monty
-Settle on dye two turns later
-Improve corn and make a road for the next settler
-OF into a settler then grow on a WB, then whip at ~69
into a settler for max OF into the WB.
@pigswill
My abbreviation here is gonna be HC.
===================
Very shameful we burnt a worker turn for that desert road. But this is not crazy SGOTM, but relax succession games.
You don't imagine the series of arguments I need to invent to convince the masters in my SGOTM team.
No surprises no one wanted to join us but the deity teams or PR.
I think where to settle next city and when to attack Monty is closely tied. If we choose to settle by the crabs (and then use OF for WB), we can use the galley to snatch workers amphibiously from Monty and don't worry, Monty will settle Texcoco (IIRC) as long we don't dispatch some Q's next to the settler (triggering flee of the settler).
Targeting Monty early (perhaps before his own slavery civic?) means we deprive him of his workers and destroy his improvements in a moment where Q are least jeopardized.
Earlier the workers are snatched, more arduous and costly it is to Monty to re-train these (without improvement and low pops).
And once IW is hit, those workers will have a non-stop chores. (BTW, I hoped you popped that hut once BW is done for a nice possibility of free IW)
Now, if we settle on dyes for that corn, that prolly means that galley shall be kept around for the next settler by the crabs, which means a delayed worker farming from Monty. I personally prefer to strike Monty early. If we settle that Colombia city, that means a forced WB.
Talking about when the improvement is ready for full output is not a valid argument because corn set up and crabs will met around the same date to be ready. The difference are between 1 more food or 3 more commerces.
And the second argument is the distances. And that is the prime argument that changes affect my city choice.
Because crabs city is a little farther (2 real worth tiles farther), the final cost in city maintenance is -4 (distance and city numbers mixed).
If corn city is settled, then it cost to the incan Tawantinsuyu only -3. I made quick rough calculus and although crabs provide commerce, we get less advanced into IW because of higher cost of city maintenance. With corn city, we reach about the half of IW, while crabs city a bit less.
EDIT: I forgot two other parameters:
workers will improve in a useful way and crabs city take long to settler than corn/dyes city.
Combine crabs furnish less food and higher city mainteance, dyes-corn city wins with flying colors.
Q.E.D.
And we can make OF in use for another settler and then work a WB while growing and then whip two pops for the second settler.
The big problem is how to manage the boats for Monty and the third settler. I think it is possible we don't roam too long in his lands and load the settler from the dye city, more precisely the corn tile after roading and improving the corn.
Van, you were right in your city choice. Well done.
Enfin (still an english word btw),
-Swarm Monty
-Settle on dye two turns later
-Improve corn and make a road for the next settler
-OF into a settler then grow on a WB, then whip at ~69
into a settler for max OF into the WB. @pigswill
My abbreviation here is gonna be HC.
===================
Very shameful we burnt a worker turn for that desert road. But this is not crazy SGOTM, but relax succession games.
You don't imagine the series of arguments I need to invent to convince the masters in my SGOTM team.
No surprises no one wanted to join us but the deity teams or PR.
vranasm
Deity
I think I lost myself somewhere in the last 3-4 pages.... kind of tough to read those blobby posts.
Wanted just say that if you settle 2nd city along coast with touching borders you get instra trade routes even without sailing/roads and very vaguely remember not needing fishing (that one I am not 100% sure though) and thus 2nd city settled in this way will be ALWAYS benefit from get go.
Wanted just say that if you settle 2nd city along coast with touching borders you get instra trade routes even without sailing/roads and very vaguely remember not needing fishing (that one I am not 100% sure though) and thus 2nd city settled in this way will be ALWAYS benefit from get go.
vranasm, we do have sailing anyway
HC: the road all along the coast will be necessary anyway and we have nothing else to be done by the worker.
As already express, i am to settle important cities only.
put a city on dye is useless for me.
what do we gain from this city?
no commerce until calandar ( see you in 3000 years)
only 1 food recource.
Yes, we will used that corn earlier and fully use our worker... great stuff!
for me the only resonable settling location are colombia (3 tiles can be used for diferent possibilities) or panama (silver, crab, fish slot)
I have however a big problem with panama : it need to expand before doing anything and I don't like that.
Both theses options (columbia and panama) open a new space for expension witch dye city or copper city will not.
HC: the road all along the coast will be necessary anyway and we have nothing else to be done by the worker.
As already express, i am to settle important cities only.
put a city on dye is useless for me.
what do we gain from this city?
no commerce until calandar ( see you in 3000 years)
only 1 food recource.
Yes, we will used that corn earlier and fully use our worker... great stuff!
for me the only resonable settling location are colombia (3 tiles can be used for diferent possibilities) or panama (silver, crab, fish slot)
I have however a big problem with panama : it need to expand before doing anything and I don't like that.
Both theses options (columbia and panama) open a new space for expension witch dye city or copper city will not.
Manco Capac
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^
Looks like you don't like my Q.E.D. thing.
That dye city is not great, true, but can be used a whipping fodder while working coast tiles (if we wants 2pop whips). And there a workable hill too once IW is in.
Colombia was my second city at first, but I looked into Van's view of things to see if I was wrong.
Looks like you don't like my Q.E.D. thing.
That dye city is not great, true, but can be used a whipping fodder while working coast tiles (if we wants 2pop whips). And there a workable hill too once IW is in.
Colombia was my second city at first, but I looked into Van's view of things to see if I was wrong.
your explaination is quite good on the fact that dye city is cheaper and faster to develop that colombia.
But do we need that city?
I prefer a more usefull city that a faster city.
Anyway, I am not the only to take decision.
This is just my opinion.
But do we need that city?
I prefer a more usefull city that a faster city.
Anyway, I am not the only to take decision.
This is just my opinion.
Manco Capac
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True. Except pigswill, van and you, I have barely seen other people.
Anyways, true that city is quite limited in function and perhaps better in mid-game city once we hit a confortable economy, but many games rely on how fast you can set up an empire.
If I chose to annoy Monty although the possible problematic of a harsh retaliation, it's because workers will speed up the empire development.
If people tends to settle cities while keeping important resources within initial first culture ring, it's because non-creative civs take time to border pop and the early gains are strong.
Why BW is so strong, because we get the item now instead of later.
Early leverages snowball.
Anyways, true that city is quite limited in function and perhaps better in mid-game city once we hit a confortable economy, but many games rely on how fast you can set up an empire.
If I chose to annoy Monty although the possible problematic of a harsh retaliation, it's because workers will speed up the empire development.
If people tends to settle cities while keeping important resources within initial first culture ring, it's because non-creative civs take time to border pop and the early gains are strong.
Why BW is so strong, because we get the item now instead of later.
Early leverages snowball.
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