AW Shucks

[pigswill]

Its not unusual in SGs for people to be active in discussion at different times. lymond, rolo and vranasm are usually not shy about expressing their opinions .

In terms of the game at present one of the decisions needs to be whether we're just harassing Monte at the moment (bit of pillaging and worker stealing) or going for something more substantial.

If we're going for harasment then galley and checks will be staying up north and we may need a second galley to escape the mountains.

I haven't done the sums but if the calc is that dyecorn is best second city in the short term (and at least self sustaining in the medium term) then we'd go for that. We have a few candidates for 3rd city: southern copper, northern goldencrab and southern deercrab.

 

[LKendter]

WOW - this is a crazy amount of talk for a game barely started!

 

[lymond]

Okay, if I'm reading things right here, we are to settle on the dye for the next city. I'm fine with that. The corn alone makes it worthwhile. Seems like we need to settle the copper in one of the next two cities, although crab/gold will be good.

I'm thinking we need to send the Q on the boat over to Columbia to walk around a bit and catch some barbs. He can start getting promos, possibly onlocking HE or us. The corn/dye city does not need defense at present. Ultimately though, keeping him near Columbia, possibly fortifying on hills SW of gold for barb catching.

So if I'm reading things correctly here, and there is a lot of discussion, this is what I will do:

1) Put current OF into Settler, then switch to WB next turn to grow. At size 4, switch to settler and manipulate tiles to get to 69 hammers for 2 pop whip. OF into WB.
2) Dump current settler on dye.
3) Worker starts moving immediately to corn next turn. (Too bad we did not put him in galley this turn)
4) 2nd Settler moves up to galley for dumping in Columbia, to settle next to Crabs such tha gold is in the first ring.
5) Southern Q needs to move 1 tile S to effectively spawnbust the area.
6) Seems we should run binary for a while on IW

Things I'm not sure of:

1) Builds in Dye city. Do we grow on a LH for now, such that we can whip the LH later at 29H at size 4?
2) What to do with the 2 Qs in Panama? Are we waiting for Monty to send a settler? Or should I start moving them?

edit: It seems very possible that the WB is not actually the best thing to put the settler OF into. Question is what? Another settler? A worker? Barracks?

Binary for 1 or 2 turns on IW...then POT>Maths>Masonry>Construction (or should we throw Writing in there after POT first)

 

[vranasm]

sometimes the discussion is a bit too bloated and it's tough for observer to react to plan which is not at least somewhat summarized and i just watch you from far away anyway ;-)

 

[vanatteveldt]

@Tachywaxon: cheers

Why do we want Cuzco to build the workboat? I think that dye city can build a WB and whip it on size 2 while Cuzco builds the corresponding settler? It's not like dye city really needs any infrastructure... sure, a lighthouse, terrace, and library are great, but size 2 building workers and settlers on a wet corn and mine is probably quicker right now?

(edit: although it seems Tachy is putting a lot more effort (and experience) into calculating the returns than I am...)

@vranasm: I'm not sure the discussion is bloated. I think part of the problem (or solution) is that on earth18 you have so much more info and the ability to play mock games that you can plan a lot more than in a regular exploring game...

 

[lymond]

Why do we want Cuzco to build the workboat?

The idea is to grow Cuzco. WB is fine to slow build there and will build quickly - I think timed perfectly to the settler whip later, OF into another settler.

I would rather Dye city grow for now so that we can whip units later. This will increase the overall production in the long run. Settlers can be whipped at higher populations. There's no urgency on settlers other than the next two, one of which will come in the next few turns.

 

[Manco Capac]

Okay, if I'm reading things right here, we are to settle on the dye for the next city. I'm fine with that. The corn alone makes it worthwhile. Seems like we need to settle the copper in one of the next two cities, although crab/gold will be good.

I'm not bought for an early copper city; not only that city is utter crap, but we can easily manage barbs without axes.
And Monty can be choked for a certain moment with Q's.
Crabs+gold city is completely the next city in line because by that time, IW is teched and the gold is unvaluable in our tech race to Construction.
4th city is prolly that plain forested deer city or that unwet+clams city. I don't think copper is that needed that early. Don't forget we can block Monty passage on that plain riverside corn (not anymore the jungle hill as it goads Monty to mass produce units and via urgent whips).

I'm thinking we need to send the Q on the boat over to Columbia to walk around a bit and catch some barbs. He can start getting promos, possibly onlocking HE or us. The corn/dye city does not need defense at present. Ultimately though, keeping him near Columbia, possibly fortifying on hills SW of gold for barb catching.

Yes, barb fogbusting and XP farming is nice. Will have to think to improve that silver tile within capital once IW is online. And don't forget to use the over 9000 rivers network. IIRC, I only put 2 roads and presto the silver was connected. And that roaming Q will unveil those river tiles as it is obligatory to use the whole river network.

So if I'm reading things correctly here, and there is a lot of discussion, this is what I will do:

1) Put current OF into Settler, then switch to WB next turn to grow. At size 4, switch to settler and manipulate tiles to get to 69 hammers for 2 pop whip. OF into WB.

In fact, I played with the real game (I think it is correct since I'm not the current player) and surprisingly, the WB is out with a complete timing along pop 4. Then get as close as possible to 69 .

2) Dump current settler on dye.

Yup and consider taking the worker immediately the next turn while not forgetting to cancel roading this present turn. That way, you use the galley inside the newly founded city and dump the worker and he'll start right away to improve the corn.
Good way to fix the worker little mistake.
I thought again about corn city vs crabs city and I definitely concluded it is best to settle corn first. Not only real game shows only -1 city maintenance more , but also the speedrun to IW is faster. IW is one capital technology to acquire. Without it, no advances into territory and good tiles and stolen workers are going to idle.
Perhaps, you may invest one more turn into full gold slider and then go for IW in one shot. The gold will help a lot once pop 3 is hit again.

In addition, crabs city is not that good without IW or border pop. Without IW, no gold and hills. Without border pop, no corn. Finally, the crabs city pre-IW is worth for the crabs only and crabs worth 4 , not 5 . The other aspect that pushes me towards crabs and clams are further levels of health cap. We must not forget that aspect yet. And finally, if crabs city is settled as second city, we need to use first pop for a monument, which is not efficient knowing the power of Terraces.


3) Worker starts moving immediately to corn next turn. (Too bad we did not put him in galley this turn)

Consider loading the galley with that worker next turn once the settle is unloaded.

4) 2nd Settler moves up to galley for dumping in Columbia, to settle next to Crabs such tha gold is in the first ring.

While waiting the second settlers, I recommend to make a small recon mission into Monty lands. He should get workers by that time. Earlier captured, stronger the blow.

5) Southern Q needs to move 1 tile S to effectively spawnbust the area.

Yes, good point.

6) Seems we should run binary for a while on IW

Indeed. IW has 20% multiplier coming from pre-requisite BW.

Things I'm not sure of:

1) Builds in Dye city. Do we grow on a LH for now, such that we can whip the LH later at 29H at size 4?

I thought about it and I concluded it will take too much time to wait while new pops will be automatically assigned to 1 coast tiles. It is inefficient.
So I thought invest into the lighthouse until one turn away from next pop. Then switch to a Q and with 1 invested, make a 1 pop whip (bad result in terms of unhappiness, but good results in term of food/hammers ratio). 14 hammers to remaining warrior and 15 OF for the lighthouse. 1 converted into wealth so a minimalized loss. After OF, we get (7+15+1) = 23 , thus we need to wait another 7-8 turns for another 1 pop whip for the lighthouse completion.
Yes, we stack 2 unhappiness, but in fact if we keep the whipped Q in the city, the effective unhappiness is only one and not only the lighthouse is built faster, but we work decent coast tiles. Once the unhappiness cap is hit (pop 4, which is enough for a worker or a settler), we switch to a development unit (a call workers and settlers that way). There's a bug that stipulates 1 unhappiness cost in term of eaten food is cancelled once switched to a development unit. Not only, we spare those 2 , but we still accede to the 2 pop whip.

2) What to do with the 2 Qs in Panama? Are we waiting for Monty to send a settler? Or should I start moving them?

Load into the galley and start wreaking havoc and snatch. Either that deer resource you plunder or make a surveillance of that riverside plain corn. If the Q's remain in the galley and a bit away from capital BFC, it shouldn't be a problem and Monty WILL settle that wished city eventually. We will hope an archer will guard that city and not a warrior. And ask our revision once you see that city settled. It is not advised to unload the Q's right away.


edit: It seems very possible that the WB is not actually the best thing to put the settler OF into. Question is what? Another settler? A worker? Barracks?

Raxes are not attractive right now. Development is all we need given the horrendous lands given to incans.

Binary for 1 or 2 turns on IW...then POT>Maths>Masonry>Construction (or should we throw Writing in there after POT first)

Still not sure about Writing, but bulbing math for faster Construction might be attractive, but not sure because Writing is not free. BTW, do not touch to any easily accessible huts until we unlock stronger tech paths. The possibilities to pop great techs is good.

Comments in blue.

 

[Manco Capac]

I would rather Dye ...

Stop with all your hidden pessimistic subliminal messages.
We're gonna win and because NTT was checked, I believe win is more feasible than before.

 

[Manco Capac]

I made a quick testing and double 1 pop whips are efficient after all. Numbers proove it:

By 1 pop whippings twice: T67 lighthouse finished ; IW finished T63 (I did not considerate capital builds, but if coastal commerce make a change to finish date of a tech, then other cities influence don't count).
By 2 pop whipping : T71 lighthouse completed; IW finished T62.

So basically we trade roughly 5 turns of earlier regrowth (or whatever the build) for one turn later IW. Seriously, more food is far better than one turn earlier IW.

In term of efficiency, we have to compare the food tanks for each population level and hammer gains:

Size 1 : 22 for next pop
Size 1 : 24 for next pop
Size 1 : 26 for next pop

For a 1 pop whip, you gain more unhappiness, but better income in term of hammers for each food.
30 / 22 = ~ 1.4 per

For a 2 pop whip, you preserve happiness pool, but lesser income in term of hammers for each food.

60 / (22+24+26) = ~ 0.8 per
60 / (24+26) = ~ 1.2 per (corrected I think).

Multiple pops whippings are often done for keeping reasonable happiness caps, but given the slow start and the lack of build for dye city, I assure you the city will get all its happiness back before the next build finishes.

And we have to consider that earlier finish of the lighthouse means more food from coast for faster regrow (and that happens earlier to repeat ad nauseam ).
The loss of commerce is really negligible here.

Good luck. I expanded the subject enough.

 

[LKendter]

This lurker is looking for a picture of my head exploding from all the debates.

 

[pigswill]

Look on it as a tutorial in micro-management. That's what I'm doing .

I'm thinking that strategically harassing Monte should be a side show. We've still got the Yanks up north, no doubt expanding peacefully while we distract the Aztecs. There's the rest of the world doing whatever the rest of the world does (trading, fighting, building wonders etc) who will eventually discover astronomy even without tech trading.
Imo we need to think primarily about expansion. Gold and silver are very nice to fund expansion but we'll grow faster by focussing on the south because of the amazonian rain forest. I have'nt looked at it in detail but I suspect that the food sources in Argentina could be split between 2-3 cities.

 

[astre]

Just a note: if we want to build dye city asap, my starting is not good.
I could have done mutch differently (go straight to BW, and go settler -> boat instead)
dye city would have been founded earlier.

My principal concern against dye city is when will we go broke. A city that does not give us big money will ripe us hard :/

 

[lymond]

Stop with all your hidden pessimistic subliminal messages

Very punny

I swear I stared at that galley and worker for several minutes trying to figure out a way to get the worker to the corn faster, thinking of putting him in the galley. However, that would not have saved turns. Why I did not think of dropping into the new city completely escapes me. Good call.

My principal concern against dye city is when will we go broke. A city that does not give us big money will ripe us hard

You seemed fixated on that dye city. I think you are putting to much emphasis on coin right now. The most important thing is production and Dye city provides that for now. It's a quick city and immediate trade route. Plus, we don't have IW right now anyway to make the crab city worthwhile at the moment. It's the right move.

@Tachy

When do we grab copper? I assume we will attack Monty with axe/cats. We will need the city at some point. Also, barb Axes and Swords will pop out of the fog at some point.

Forgot about galley Q attacks. I will try that out and get us some workers hopefully.

Interesting math on the Q whips in Dye.

With lack of food and pressing need for production, I'm not sure waiting on a GS will do us much in terms of bulb Maths vs. teching it outright. Actually, I guess we need Writing for Maths anyway. So POT>Writing>Maths for the next techs?

I'll wait for some feedback and play later today.

I think the timing of the Silver improvement may depend on how many workers we can steal. Worker turns will be a premium once crab city is settled. We'll want another Q or 2 over on the other side to protect that city and escort the worker.

 

[vanatteveldt]

The south has two very good cities, but after that it goes downhill quickly (unless we divide the montevideo spoils, but that is probably just too good as GP farm?). Most cities will be jungle ridden and food poor, so we're in it for the long haul. As soon as the cities are big and the jungle cleared, however, it is very powerful land. A central Amazonian city (Brasilia) can consist of 100% riverside grassland hills and flatland, which makes very nice cottage or watermill land...

edit @pigswill: it's not just about harassing Monty (although a balance of power in the north is better than a monty freak show), but mainly about getting free workers, which are very valuable in the not-so-urban jungle

 

[lymond]

Okay, I think I played about 18 turns. I wanted to at least get the new city up before stopping. I stopped when I settled in Columbia and 2 workers are now working on the gold.

I did steal a worker as seen here:

Spoiler :

The issue though with Monty harassment is logisitcal, as we only have one galley. I needed to get the worker back home and be ready to pickup the settler. So I sent the galley back leaving one Q up there on a hill for now. With the new settler unloaded we can dedicate the galley to Aztec shenanigans for now, and use a new galley for expanding and transporting captured workers.

I whipped the next settler(@69h) into another settler and now slow building a galley to grow. We really need another galley if we want to stay on Monty while still expanding.

IW just finished and POT is lined up. Probably need a turn or 2 of binary for gold to finish it.

Dye city has already whipped 2 Qs into a LH with another lined up. We probably want more spawnbust to the East and Cuzco still needs MP.

I'm thinking now we really need not whip off the gold in Cuzco, but rather grow to size 5 before whipping so that we keep the gold working. Hopefully, we can get to Size 5 before losing hammers on the current settler build.

Note that while waiting on the settler I laid a couple of roads inland over the gold for faster movement later.

Q roaming up north as killed 2 panthers so far for Woody1

The thing that bothered me is not being able to harass Monty more during this timeframe. Not having another galley hurt, but there's not much we can do about. Hopefully, we still have time to do some damage.

I have sent the galley on to Azteca with a Q and to pick up the other, so maybe we can steal more workers and cause general havoc.

Here's a view of the empire:

Spoiler :

 

[Manco Capac]

Lymond, you did the same mistake as I did; to fortify on that jungle ston hill is an enticing reason for Monty to spam units.
You would more surprised how that riverside plain corn is plenty sufficient for blockading. And it has merits to not locate within most productive city of his.

I still don't see how astre crippled Monty. Monty is a unit spammer and his behaviour looked like a Gandhi with a feathered hat.

 

[nocho]

Am I up? I'll have to study this a lot. Maybe tachy and vanA should be the next two up, as they've done quite a bit of testing and will have a better feel of what to do here...

 

[lymond]

Lymond, you did the same mistake as I did; to fortify on that jungle ston hill is an enticing reason for Monty to spam units.
.

Yeah, my main problem was not really thinking about the galley issue until I'd already picked up both Qs and stole the worker. I should have just taken 1Q in the galley to start and then brought both Q and worker back.

With another galley built, we should have more flexibility to focus on Monty, but are window is shrinking.

The question still begs...when do we settle copper? We can still build Qs with copper connected and it might be a good idea to upgrade a few of them later since they get the free promo.

 

[astre]

I still don't see how astre crippled Monty. Monty is a unit spammer and his behaviour looked like a Gandhi with a feathered hat.

Monty units were just at another place.
Monty felt rather safe with just 2 queshua on his border.

The major point of my strat was just to pillage the upgrades.

for next city: either copper city or santiago.
I think to rush Monty, copper is mutch better (obviously) while, if we want to only slow him and expend, santiago is better.

Just be carefull to keep economy flowing...

 

[pigswill]

Its a bit late but I'm wondering if MP should have gone 1N. It can't work the corn because Tiwanku needs it. Going 1N would keep the crab (and gold after a border pop) and given us access to the Caribean. Too late now of course. I guess I wasn't paying attention at the time.

Let's settle Santiago. There's at least 2 cities in Argentina (including a NW copper city) and possibly 3 depending on how share out the food there.