AW Shucks

[Manco Capac]

as a lurker I would say that taking 4 standard turnsets in one go was really surprising to see.

in what sense? Too domineering?

 

[vranasm]

in what sense? Too domineering?

well it's not my thing, but it would make me pretty angry if i would be part of team. Looks like you don't trust your team members (something I had to battle in other SG's for sure).

i don't want to make out of it bigger deal then it is and certainly don't want to start any kind of flame wars, it's just my opinion about the way team game should be played.

 

[Manco Capac]

Well, the set was long... but played... so, lets move on.

However, the strategy was right.
After my two prolongated tested, I understood that it is crucial to
- take cities for incomming gold
- do not build unnecessary city until was have currency and code of law

Therefore, invade the north burning unnecessary cities was the good option.
Now, after a full campain of building courthouses, we can think of the south.

Next tech, i was more thinking of metalcasting because I gess that wash must not me far from crossbow and crossbow can kill us but slingshoot taoism seem nice also. I am also thinking of alphabet that could be intersesting to steal 2-3 techs...

I think next tech should be alphabet and we will se if meditation is required for taoism or if we can forget this path...

and last question: is it me or I am UP?
If I am,I will not play until some days, the time i consider more the save...

In fact, the incoming gold isn't much of a gain, better look at it as a reward for investing into an army that cost a certain amount of GPT (the cost of too much units plus units outside borders).
The strategy was right because bad starts appeal to early rush to gain something decent. And we need to reap all on our continent to prepare the onslaught coming from the other 16 civs!

I burnt only once city because all others have potential in cottages and have at least one food. If a city has at least one food, then the city is viable.

First, I actively disconnected all metals so Roosy won't focus on a army buildup. Archers are fine.
I do not fear Xbows because they won't necessarily attack with our catas (5
vs 6 ), espcially in a big stack. With experience and code studying, it seems the AI won't necessarily attack if the units taken as single is overpowered by the total power of all the stack.

That would explain why Duckweed had no problems with his preats at catas in Mao's lands where maces and xbows were running. Too few of them make them scared and run away. And if the stack is by a city, a code forces the units to garrison.

And Roosy is no more in 10-15 turns. Given his present nation, he has no more tech power.

I prefer 100% to found our own religion. Why? Because in AW, the religion spreading is harder. Religion spreading can be only done with a peace situation. Thus, we infer that religion spreading only work when we haven't met yet the AI and when they get Astro.

Religion spreading is done via routes called hypothetical routes. That is routes that don't need to be uncovered but the map laying gives one or many. We can compare this just like missionaries not under our control doing their job unbeknownst the state (leader).

Lastly, given the chances are high to get contact via caravels before Astro is teched, we might have not a single chance for religion spreading.
Religion spreading is coming from the respective holy city and only a holy cities. If the AI's under control of holy cities are under war, we lose all chance to get a spread.

Conclusively, we have to get a religion. We do not need diplo care, so we have to profit from religious civics and buildings. Theocracy might be a strong option in late game.

BTW, did you know U.N. victory is possible under AW. Even AP is doable. Just hard to do because of sheer number of AI's.

 

[Manco Capac]

well it's not my thing, but it would make me pretty angry if i would be part of team. Looks like you don't trust your team members (something I had to battle in other SG's for sure).

i don't want to make out of it bigger deal then it is and certainly don't want to start any kind of flame wars, it's just my opinion about the way team game should be played.

Angry again?
In fact, I'm trusting my team; it's just I went haywire while playing. I couldn't stop. It was fun and challenging for me. And I have saves turn by turn, so if people was against this 50 turns, all they need to do is asking for an earlier save.
I also went overboard because I'm versed in early critical early wars between total loss or barely getting out.
And I was struggling and finishing my turnset like this left me a bad taste. I needed to see this game winnable because I believe it is winnable. I've seen extraordinary players winning in appalling conditions.

 

[vranasm]

Angry again?

i actually am pretty competitive/easy to get angry kind of guy , it's just this forum that makes me better.

You should see me playing hockeyball or football or some other sports based activity...you would for sure learn some new czech words that are not teached by lectors.

 

[lymond]

What's hockeyball, V?

No wonder you crazy Czechs are the #1 per capita consumers of beer in the world...by a large margin

 

[vranasm]

What's hockeyball, V?

No wonder you crazy Czechs are the #1 per capita consumers of beer in the world...by a large margin

this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_pBv0K-HXs we are actually (or was last year) world champions... it's derivate of ice hockey, but without skates and is played in warm temperatures.

 

[astre]

My recommendation mentioned it.

It wasn't a note for you but for pigswill ^^ look at his previous post.

Religion spreading is coming from the respective holy city and only a holy cities. If the AI's under control of holy cities are under war, we lose all chance to get a spread.

I was able to get a religion by spreading in my try of this AW game.
And it was more pain than gain... unhappiness because at war with brother in faith *grrrr*.

 

[vanatteveldt]

I will have a closer look at the save, so far only read the reports. My initial thoughts:

1) If the current army and economy allows it, conquer or raze more cities until the army is exhausted

2) build up economy. From the report I gather we already have currency, so we can't be in too deep problems. I agree with CoL for courthouses.

3) religion. I agree that in AW a religion is important, and if we spread it to the whole continent it can be a nice source of income if we generate a GProphet. I hate teching alpha (it seems pretty pointless) at this point but I guess it is better than trying to self tech taoism.

It might make sense to move the palace soon to cut maintenance as well. NY looks like an excellent place, and a city in the Amazon can get the foreign palace at some point.

Metal Casting for cheap +2/3 happy forges will also be very nice, and I agree that stealing it will be very difficult, although generally in raw points it should be cheaper than researching it, especially after we move the palace, but I guess that will come too late. So, we will probably have to tech it ourselves...

 

[lymond]

... it's derivate of ice hockey, but without skates and is played in warm temperatures.

Ah yes...I played a bit of that when I was young...makeshift/sandlot style. Hockey sticks and a hard plastic ball. We just called it Hockey though. Hockey Ball makes sense.

 

[pigswill]

Re Tachywaxon's last turnset. Once it was played I could see no point in resetting the save to some arbitrary turn given that Tachywaxon would have advanced knowledge of what was coming which would affect her advice.

Surprised? yes. Angry? no.

Anyway let's make this the last post on that particular subject.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Had a good look around. Some things that might not be obvious from the report

- CoL is due in 1 turn. We will have about 80$ left with +52 at 100% wealth and most cities building wealth. More conquest money will come in probably.
- Cuzco is 100% GS, so no need to cross our fingers?
- The prereqs for bulbing taoism will cost 144+540=700 beakers, taoism costs 1440. At 50% science (which we should be able to afford for a while) this should be done at the same time as the GS, so we only need to hope that the AI will wait 7/8 turns before becoming all taoist on us.
- The main army is in Tlaxcala (Iowa?), consisting of 9 cats and 10 axemen. A lot of cats will need to heal 2 or even 4 turns. Some assorted axes and cats are hanging around in different towns, probably after healing; in total we have 11 cats and 25 axemen in north america.

Some considerations
- After Taoism, I think we should research MC unless we have the idea that we will be able to steal it.,
- Espionage is now on Roosevelt but that seems pointless, so I think it should go back to monty to steal a tech before he is offed.
- I would prefer to get Roosevelt's cities before Monty, but it doesn't matter much and the army is in position to strike north at Monty's Albertan city.
- I agree that a GG medic will come too late, so I will settle in Mexico as soon as we start building units down there again (which depends entirely on our estimate of what tech level we will have before the euros come)
- I think we can miss a couple more axes to spawnbust south america

Questions
- When shall we start building cities again? We have some money to spare at 0% research, and we don't have immediate tech goals after metal casting. I feel that we should get both americas productive asap to be able to withstand the euros, but I find it hard to decide the right timing. In NA, we should build a New Orleans city and a Colarado / gold city. In SA, a load of cities and a ton of workers are needed. We have 15 workers, which is quite a lot given that the north is somewhat developed already, so we should be able to send some south and we will capture some more as well.
- Do you agree with building two island cities asap for trade routes? Each city should give 4+N immediate commerce, which is currently 4+11=15, so they certainly pay for themselves. Possibilities are Cuba, Galapagos, and Malvides/Falklands, with my preference going to the first two, but this will pop the hut marked "do not touch".
(- Do you all agree with a renaming spree to modern cities/territories?)
- How cautious should I be attacking? What kind of garissons will monty/roosy have atm?

 

[Manco Capac]

Re Tachywaxon's last turnset. Once it was played I could see no point in resetting the save to some arbitrary turn given that Tachywaxon would have advanced knowledge of what was coming which would affect her advice.

Surprised? yes. Angry? no.

Anyway let's make this the last post on that particular subject.

In fact, I would have stop commenting until my ending turnset if a previous save was taken.

 

[pigswill]

Good to hear.

Let's move on.

 

[Manco Capac]

- Cuzco is 100% GS, so no need to cross our fingers?

I crossfinger AI's will get their share of bad luck and avoid getting a GScientist.
Some GScientists appeared, but no Philo bulbing happened and I am pretty sure it is consequence of NTT. Once one AI gets CoL, others shunned that tech until late just like a human player keeping monopoly. I hope those AI's with CoL won't get a GScientist. I don't think they'll get it via teching power soon.

Questions
- When shall we start building cities again? We have some money to spare at 0% research, and we don't have immediate tech goals after metal casting. I feel that we should get both americas productive asap to be able to withstand the euros, but I find it hard to decide the right timing. In NA, we should build a New Orleans city and a Colarado / gold city. In SA, a load of cities and a ton of workers are needed. We have 15 workers, which is quite a lot given that the north is somewhat developed already, so we should be able to send some south and we will capture some more as well.
- Do you agree with building two island cities asap for trade routes? Each city should give 4+N immediate commerce, which is currently 4+11=15, so they certainly pay for themselves. Possibilities are Cuba, Galapagos, and Malvides/Falklands, with my preference going to the first two, but this will pop the hut marked "do not touch".
(- Do you all agree with a renaming spree to modern cities/territories?)


My main rule is settle valuable cities with at least one food.
Without GLH, a foodless city isn't that attractive.
The do not touch is to gamble big, that is once all ancient techs are gotten. If we want really big, perhaps Astro once all classical techs are teched until Music (included too) and open the Optics path. Getting a fast early and free astro means Observatory!
For now, we don't care invading the old world because that won't work until we are strong. Perhaps we shall do this late industrial times. We have to consider AI's may get OB between them (that share wars bonus is the most stupid implementation for AW) and then our stacks are going to be struck by huge waves of units.

Strategy: Raze raze raze. The main problems with keeping cities that cannot be easily defended is all AI's stack will target those and we'll have to split our stacks too much until a point we are too weak and lose all. With razing, enemy AI's won't target our units outside their lands. AI units target cities, not far away units.
And a sentry unit to alert our stack might be good use. A fort for a faster healing process too as even forts in neutral lands are behaving like cities, but are not targete!



- How cautious should I be attacking? What kind of garissons will monty/roosy have atm?

Roosy is dead. He is no longer a threat.
Monty's last city should be attacked with the whole stack so to use all catas at once to reduce defense the fastest possible. Walls tend to lag the city conquering and trigger unit whippings.
I think we shall kill Roosy to get full potential of our North America cities (no more motherland anger) and let Monty to tech steal ancient times techs, so using free EP from palace and courthouses efficiently. In AW, every resources count as we are facing deadly AI's. And we have to be competitive in the tech race.

BTW, I went for Monty in the last turn because his culture was a problem and I wanted him to stop positioning his SoD near Roosy cities, so we can free units there to bring them dowm to Middle America.

Comment in blue.

 

[Manco Capac]

Good to hear.

Let's move on.

No.

 

[pigswill]

You enjoy provocation?

 

[vanatteveldt]

OK guys let's stop the discussion about tachy's overly long turn. I think we all (even tachy) agree that it was against "SG etiquette", but (s?)he gave a good reason and nobody wanted to pick an earlier turnset. I we would have wanted to be strict, we should have kicked Tachy from the roster and continued from the turnset before that; but we didn't, and I'm pretty confident that that decision increased our survival chances. So, let's accept that and move on. This is a game in which we all have fun, not an airliner in which a breach of protocol can cost 200 lives.

 

[vanatteveldt]

The do not touch is to gamble big, that is once all ancient techs are gotten. If we want really big, perhaps Astro once all classical techs are teched until Music (included too) and open the Optics path. Getting a fast early and free astro means Observatory!

I understand the gamble. If the online docs are right, the odds on immortal if we pop it with culture (ie by founding a city next to it) are

gold 25% --> 50%
map 5% --> 10%
warrior/scout 10% --> 20%
tech 10% --> 20%

So, there is a 20% chance at getting a tech. I agree that that is nothing to sneeze at. The reason I asked is that I think we need two island cities asap because each island city gives +1 trade route commerce in each other city, plus 4 commerce from its own trade routes, plus at least 3 commerce from working a coastal tile = 18 immediate commerce = 2.5 instant gold mines. The options for island cities are Galapagos (W of Peru), Falklands (SE of argentine), and Cuba (popping the hut).

Strategy: Raze raze raze. The main problems with keeping cities that cannot be easily defended is all AI's stack will target those and we'll have to split our stacks too much until a point we are too weak and lose all. With razing, enemy AI's won't target our units outside their lands. AI units target cities, not far away units.
And a sentry unit to alert our stack might be good use. A fort for a faster healing process too as even forts in neutral lands are behaving like cities, but are not targete!

Is that really necessary? We have a 2.5 unit advantage on monty, and we should be able to kill or lethally cripple roosevelt in less than 10 turns. From what little we can see, taking the 3 northern cities should not broaden our front, only push it north at worst, and decrease it at best if this line of cities is the last real line (which I think it is, from the geography). The southern Monty city can't produce enough units to really scare us, I think.

Given that our goal is to have a populated NA+SA (spaceship victory? ;-)), I would hope that we don't have to raze too much (although Monty's city N of the army looks horribly located, but we'll see that when we get there...

 

[Manco Capac]

Is that really necessary? We have a 2.5 unit advantage on monty, and we should be able to kill or lethally cripple roosevelt in less than 10 turns. From what little we can see, taking the 3 northern cities should not broaden our front, only push it north at worst, and decrease it at best if this line of cities is the last real line (which I think it is, from the geography). The southern Monty city can't produce enough units to really scare us, I think.

Given that our goal is to have a populated NA+SA (spaceship victory? ;-)), I would hope that we don't have to raze too much (although Monty's city N of the army looks horribly located, but we'll see that when we get there...

Oops. I have to clear misunderstandings; I was thinking forward if we want some kind of ultra hard campaigns in the old world where we'll face huge stacks!
This little anecdote was not by any case connected with Monty/Roosy case. For them, we still keep cities that have at least one food resource.

Thanks for your support btw. We want a win out of this hell of game!
And there is still much work to do!
And knowing the rules now, I will restrict myself now on.