Beginnings of the West

[Julien]

That was extremely interesting, Vrylakas. Actually, I can't remember reading such an fascinating post on this forum (even on others).

I apologise for my confusion between the Huns and the Magyars. I have read somewhere that Hungarian and Finnish language shared virtuallt nothing with other European languages. They probably meant common words with Latin and Germanic languages or weren't well informed.

As for the difference between a language and the athnical origin of the people that speak it, I am fully aware of it. That's why I have been asking Knight-Dragon if he would consider a Caucasian born and raised in an Asian country (and not speaking any European languages) if this person would be a Westerner or not. In my opinion, no, as "Western" describes one's mentality (values,system,culture...), not the ethny. For me an person of Asian or African ancestors, having lived only in the US and knowing nothing of their origin can only be an American, therefore, a Westerner. That's why I was wondering if non-Caucasian Singaporian or Hong-Konger having English as a mother-tongue were also Westerners or not.

That is the reason why I wanted to stress the cultural difference between Hungarians and other Europeans. I certainly believe that Hungarians are Europeans. I know they don't look mongoloid physically and have been completely integrated to Europe for such a long time. The argument was about the ehntic and linguistic origin as defining one's Westerness. My aim was to prove it was wrong to think like this (as I said earlier, Japanese could be considered as Westerners, eventhough they are ethnically and culturally totally non European).

I am sometimes playing the devil's advocate to stirr up opinions and make the discussion progress. I've been very happy to read you post, as I've learned more about Hungary and Eastern Europe than I even dreamed of in a single post.

So, what is"Westerness" at the end ? Europeans are people living in Europe. Americans in America (whatever their ethny). Americans and Europeans are Westerners, Chinese, Iraqi or Kenyan are not. Why ?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Julien
As for the difference between a language and the athnical origin of the people that speak it, I am fully aware of it. That's why I have been asking Knight-Dragon if he would consider a Caucasian born and raised in an Asian country (and not speaking any European languages) if this person would be a Westerner or not. In my opinion, no, as "Western" describes one's mentality (values,system,culture...), not the ethny. For me an person of Asian or African ancestors, having lived only in the US and knowing nothing of their origin can only be an American, therefore, a Westerner. That's why I was wondering if non-Caucasian Singaporian or Hong-Konger having English as a mother-tongue were also Westerners or not.

On a macro basis, easier to categorize. America, West Europe etc are Western. Singapore, Japan etc are not.

On an individual basis, as to whether a person can be a Westerner by virtue of education and upbringing, I don't know... As far as I'm concerned, you're what you want to be, I guess.

I am sometimes playing the devil's advocate to stirr up opinions and make the discussion progress. I've been very happy to read you post, as I've learned more about Hungary and Eastern Europe than I even dreamed of in a single post.

Vrylakas' posts are always interesting.

So, what is"Westerness" at the end ? Europeans are people living in Europe. Americans in America (whatever their ethny). Americans and Europeans are Westerners, Chinese, Iraqi or Kenyan are not. Why ?

See above. I think the definition differs from person to person...

 

[LionQ]

Originally posted by Julien
So, what is"Westerness" at the end ? Europeans are people living in Europe. Americans in America (whatever their ethny). Americans and Europeans are Westerners, Chinese, Iraqi or Kenyan are not. Why ?

Well, I guess everyone has to decide that one for him/herself.
I guess Communist is per definition not Western, so that's the reason why China is not Western, imo. But if I look to their plans, they might become a Western country at the end.
Imo much people think Muslem is per definition not Western, so that's Iraq is not Western.
Kenyan is Third World Country, and I think lots of people think, that the Third World is per definition not Western.

 

[Julien]

Originally posted by CivilopediaCity

Well, I guess everyone has to decide that one for him/herself.
I guess Communist is per definition not Western, so that's the reason why China is not Western, imo. But if I look to their plans, they might become a Western country at the end.

So Westerness depends on one's political opinions ?
But there are communist in France, Italy or Germany as well (still now). Do you mean that a part of their population isn't Western just on basis of their political inclination ? I'm pretty sure they won't agree as I know some of them.

Imo much people think Muslem is per definition not Western, so that's Iraq is not Western.

Go and tell Turkish people that they aren't Westerners because they are muslim and therefore cannot join the EU. What about the hundreds of thousands of Christian Arabic in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria Jordan/Palestine or Egypt ?

Kenyan is Third World Country, and I think lots of people think, that the Third World is per definition not Western.

Then Bolivia, Peru, Nicaragua, Honduras, and lots of other Latin American nations aren't Western countries. Are Romania and Bulgaria (likely to join the EU within 5 years) not Western as well because they are poorer ?

 

[LionQ]

Originally posted by Julien
So Westerness depends on one's political opinions ?
But there are communist in France, Italy or Germany as well (still now). Do you mean that a part of their population isn't Western just on basis of their political inclination ? I'm pretty sure they won't agree as I know some of them.

I guess you misunderstood: Iself am not exactly sure what Westerness is. I just telled what most people think of it. But I'll join the discussion: Westerness is related with democracy, imo. I think Communist countries are automatically not Western. With "Communist countries" I mean countries like China, North Corea, etc. Where the Communists rule the land. I my own country, Holland, there are also Communist, but that doesn't make The Netherlands a Communist country.

Originally posted by Julien
Go and tell Turkish people that they aren't Westerners because they are muslim and therefore cannot join the EU. What about the hundreds of thousands of Christian Arabic in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria Jordan/Palestine or Egypt ?

I said much people think Muslem is per definition not Western. But I think it is absolutely possible that a Muslem country is Western. As soon as Turkey will join the EU, I'll call Turkey Western.

Originally posted by Julien
Then Bolivia, Peru, Nicaragua, Honduras, and lots of other Latin American nations aren't Western countries. Are Romania and Bulgaria (likely to join the EU within 5 years) not Western as well because they are poorer?

Since the were "partners" of the USSR, I don't think that I'll call them Western now. But as soon as they join the EU, I think I'll call them Western. Richdom isn't related to Westerness. Belgium, for instance, is not a that rich country

 

[Julien]

Richdom isn't related to Westerness. Belgium, for instance, is not a that rich country

What makes you believe that ? My stats show me that the GDP per capita in Belgium (US$26,946 at PPP, source The Economist) is the 4th highest of EU countries after Luxemburg (world's highest GDP per capita), Denmark ($29,792) and the Netherlands. Belgium's GDP per capita is 3 times like that of Greece, Portugal or Czech Republic. It is even slightly higher than Japan's (at PPP).

 

[LionQ]

Sorry. The people are not earning less there. They earn well with their jobs. But the economy is just poor and not so good. In fact, I didn't say Belgium was poor, but only that Belgium is not so rich, and that is so. I have only to travel 100 km to the south from my homecity and I can see it.

 

[Julien]

That's strange because Brussels is the city with the highest salaries in Europe, after London. Where do you live in the Netherlands ? Regional disparities are high in every country. Check this site : http://www.demographia.com/db-intlppp-regiona.htm they compare the GDP/capita in every state, region or province of every European, North American country + Japan and Australia. I see that Belgium poorest province is Hainaut with an average annual salary of $16,884. Brusselers make more than double with $36,002. In comparison the netherlands poorer province is Flevoland with $17,219 and the richest is Utrecht with $30,363. So, if you live in Utrecht and often go to bordering Hainaut, it's only normal that you find it poorer.

 

[willemvanoranje]

well, Brussels is something different than the rest of Belgium I think, and maybe the differences in income are much greater than in Holland as well (which I certainly can imagine). Also: is that bruto or netto, cuz we still have higher taxes here I think.

 

[LionQ]

Indeed Holland has higher taxes than Belgium. And I've said earlier: they people earn average / well money, but the country is just poor. I live in 'Capelle aan den IJssel', that's a small city east of 'Rotterdam' and that's the province 'Zuid-Holland'. So if I drive 100 kms to the south, I'll come through the Belgium-Netherlands border, and the roads become way much worse when I pass that border. I can just see that the government and the country are poor, although the Belgian people are not that poor, I think you can call them rich.

 

[Julien]

Oh I see very well what you mean. I've taken this road from Rotterdam to Antwerp and Brussels and I was shocked too by the difference once you cross the border. Not sure a single road is significative, as other "real" highways in Belgium can be quite good (and all of them are enlightened at night, which isn't the case in the Netherlands, I think - that must be expensive to maintain and I don't know of any other country that does it).

I think taxes are about the same ; both have 21% VAT, which is the max in Europe, and taxes on salaries can go as high as 55% in Belgium. Have a look at this, it classifies tax level inside Europe. Belgium come 4th and the Netherlands 6th : http://europa.eu.int/scadplus/citizens/en/be/1080.htm

Did you know that Japan had only 5% VAT and 10% income tax ? Taxes aren't the only thing that make a country rich !


Anyway, both countries are well-knowned for being mean/stingy.

 

[willemvanoranje]

japan can't have much of a social program then

 

[Julien]

Not really. About the same as the US.

 

[klazlo]

Hi guys,
First of all thanks for Vrylakas for the detailed explanation. He is a much more patient person than me, I probably wouldn't be able to explain the situation in so many details, lacking the proper knowledge.

I have a bad habit of getting pretty annoyed when Western Europeans behave like Davies described it, which they often do (thanks for the reference). I worked in Eastern Europe with both Americans and Western Europeans in territorial development projects and Americans were way better. In general probably less American people know where Krakow is for instance, but those ones who work in Eastern Europe really do their best to get to know as much about the region as they can. Western Europeans on the other hand assume that they know everything (or everything important) just because they are on the same continent, especially those ones who come from Brussels as so-called "EU-experts". It seems that if somebody can make the distinction between Budapest and Bucharest then this person suddenly becomes an expert in Eastern European issues.

Anyway the definition of "Westerner" is a tough one. Being a sociologist I tend to believe that what you need to have to meet this criteria are: (1) a pluralist political system; (2) a capitalist economy; (3) a particular lifestyle in the society that is based on the emphasis of consumption.
We live in the era of globalization where certain things (like ethnicity or the overall wealth of the society) become less and less important and you can live in a "Western" society outside of Europe and the US.
And the most important: "Westerner" is a degree and not a dichotomy - this is why the categorization is very difficult. The best example is Turkey.
There is no ultimate description of this term, some people made entire careers interpreting them (Barber, Huntington etc.).

 

[klazlo]

Originally posted by Julien
I think taxes are about the same ; both have 21% VAT, which is the max in Europe...

The VAT in Hungary is 25 pct and you can believe that this is not something in which I wish to reach the EU standards.
At least not without the same income.

 

[Julien]

Originally posted by klazlo


Anyway the definition of "Westerner" is a tough one. Being a sociologist I tend to believe that what you need to have to meet this criteria are: (1) a pluralist political system; (2) a capitalist economy; (3) a particular lifestyle in the society that is based on the emphasis of consumption.
We live in the era of globalization where certain things (like ethnicity or the overall wealth of the society) become less and less important and you can live in a "Western" society outside of Europe and the US.

Japan fits 100% your definition of Westerness. They are ultra-capitalist, have a pluralist political system and they are more materialst and consumption-obsessed than anybody else in the world (especially Japanese women). However, Japanese emphasise everyday the difference between them and Westerners, which means they don't consider themselves as such, though lots of Europeans or Americans would think of Japan as a Western country. Knight-dragon confirmed this about Singapore, He doesn't consider himself a Westerners, though he was raised in English and in a totally Western system (from your definition). And Bolivian or Peruvian don't fit your definition in almost any way, but are generally considered Westerners.

 

[Julien]

Originally posted by klazlo


The VAT in Hungary is 25 pct and you can believe that this is not something in which I wish to reach the EU standards.
At least not without the same income.

Sorry, I remembered a listing of the EU-12 (so already a few years ago) in which it seems that no country had hight VAT than 21%. I've checked again and Sweden has got 25%, Finland 22% and Hungary has 2 rates, either 12% or 25%, depending on the products. Just for information, France has 20,6% (they've always liked decimals ), the UK 17,5%, Germany 16%, Austria 20% and Switzerland 6,5% (one of the lowest in Europe).

 

[macaskil]

Western Civilization (a "good idea" according to Ghandi) owes a lot to

- Mesopotamia/Egypt
(farming, military organisation, writing, Mathematics)
- Greece
(philosophy, democracy)
- Judea
(religion (3 main monotheistic religions originate from here))
- Rome
(engineering)
- Arabs
(medicine, chemistry, preservation of Greek learning)

The period which set the West apart was, however, the Renaissance. The main effect of this was to some extent relegate God and elevate Man in his place - "Humanism". This meant it was possible to promulgate ideas about science which would hitherto have been thought blasphemous. Islam, by contrast, remained a theocratic society and stagnated from about the 16th C on.

Increased population and shortage of natural resources in Europe prompted the search for new sources of raw materials, and "lebensraum", both of which were found in America. Beacuse Western powers (rather than the Arabs, Moguls, Chinese or Japanese, all of whom were technically capable of reaching and colonising America) gave the West a huge advantage that it has never lost.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Julien
Japan fits 100% your definition of Westerness. They are ultra-capitalist, have a pluralist political system and they are more materialst and consumption-obsessed than anybody else in the world (especially Japanese women).

I think these definitions fit modernity, as well as Westerniness. Anybody can become materialistic and consumption-obsessed, once they have a high enough std of living.

Knight-dragon confirmed this about Singapore, He doesn't consider himself a Westerners, though he was raised in English and in a totally Western system (from your definition).

Nope, I was raised a Chinese. I still keep my Chinese name, despite the popular local practise of taking up 'Christian' names. As for the 'Western system', yup, it's a legacy of the colonial times, but now interspaced with (American) modernity.

I speak Mandarin more than English day-to-day, though English remains my basic working language.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by Julien
Did you know that Japan had only 5% VAT and 10% income tax ? Taxes aren't the only thing that make a country rich !

Only 3% VAT (soon to be upped to 5% though) in S'pore.

As for income taxes, I paid way less than 10%... Most people don't even need to pay. We have an income bracket system here - different brackets pay different rates.

Anyway, both countries are well-knowned for being mean/stingy.

It's called prudent management of national resources. Singapore practises it too. Malaysia is a waster though.