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Berkeley College Republicans hold intentionally racist Bake sale

It seems quite clear to me that any factor at play is socio-economic (including cultural factors), not racism.

Cutlass keeps repeating the same thing, but has not addressed why Asians succeeded where Latin Americans failed or why african immigrants and their children outperform whites in college admission. Racism did not keep Asians down and it is not keeping Africans down either, this much is a fact.

That’s just untrue. Blacks were subjected to redlining of bank loans and mortgages well into the 1980s whereas Asians were largely not, just to cite one example.

Do cite the "other examples", because this one won't do.

No. If redlining wouldn’t do as an example of institutional racism then there isn’t any point in citing additional examples as you are likely to dismiss them out of hand.

This is likely why people did not respond to your previous inquiries.
 
That’s just untrue. Blacks were subjected to redlining of bank loans and mortgages well into the 1980s whereas Asians were largely not, just to cite one example.

I was comparing Asians to Latin Americans. Do cite the "other examples", because this one won't do. It would be also curious to know why the son of an african immigrant born in say 1985 in average outperforms a black american also born in 1985 in college admissions. Both were born in the USA and thus subject to the same "racial barriers".

BTW, in the Econometrics class I took on my masters, one of the studies we did was precisely about bank loans in the USA. If you create a simple regression where the dependent variable is a dummy of whether the loan was granted or not, and the explaining variables are racial dummies, we "conclude" that blacks are discrimated. There is a substantial and statistically significant negative coefficient in the "black" variable. So people like Cutlass and sociologists without a clue would jump at that and conclude there is widespread discrimination in bank loans. But once you controll for other standard explaining variables, the racial dummies cease to be statistically significant. I believe that would be the case in most "discrimination" examples out there, reinforcing the notion that there exists socio-economic discrimination (duh), but whatever racism exists is not really preventing people from going to college, getting jobs or bank loans. The solution therefore should be socio-economic, not racial, especially for the obvious and outrageous problems necessarily associated with any racial solution.

For people into Econometrics, exercises on bank loans can be found on both Verbeek's and Wooldridge's books (the most popular books for graduate econometrics)
 
And yet they still suffer from the effects of that deliberate brutal repression of their rights, which has occurred for 340 of the 390 years that blacks have been in this country. As a group, they are still clearly feeling the effects of that overt racism.
Other "racial" groups have been openly discriminated in the past in USA, but we don't place any AA to help them.


Yet a minority feel completely reluctant to help them overcome those inherent problems which continue to plague them.
Probably because that racism does not exist anymore, and it's time to have plain level field for everybody.
Today the biggest factors creating advantages and disadvantages are economical.
If AA would be used to help people from poor backgrounds, regardless of race, then it will be difficoult for anybody to consider them discriminatory.

And as the article I posted above clearly points out, that AA "damages" those in obvious need of that aid is a myth.
The article points outs, but does not demonstrate anything.


And so do I for some of them. But many of the "boat people" were actually successful businessmen, leaders of their community, and even members of the military who had to flee Vietnam in rightful fear of their lives for their support of war crimes. Or in some cases, even their own crimes against humanity. Yet they were never tried for those crimes.
Doesn't mean that all boat people fall in these descriptions.
You even imply that "many of them" supported war crimes... Just because they are Asian doesn't mean you have to denigrate them.
If somebody else would have wrote that he could be accused of being a racist.
You are just creating a straw man (*) as usual.

There is nothing prejudicial about AA. And not all discrimination is racism.
Granting advantages for categories of people according to their race is prejudicial by definition.
Racial prejudice or discrimination is, by definition, racism.





(*)first time I use this term in the forum, where is notoriously abused. sorry.
 
This really smacks of IRL trolling,
Kind of. The bake sale was obviously a parody of racial and gender preferences and regardless of what one thinks of such preferences such political theater belongs to Berkeley’s once-revered tradition of free speech.
and their point isn't even valid, AA is illegal in California.
I suggest you look up SB 185 which seeks to reintroduce racial preferences into the CA post secondary system again.
 
Other "racial" groups have been openly discriminated in the past in USA, but we don't place any AA to help them.
Which group might that be? Asian-Americans who have now managed to overcome that inherent racism to even displace whites in some states with no AA provisions?

Probably because that racism does not exist anymore, and it's time to have plain level field for everybody.
Racism is obviously still pervasive in the US and is quite strong in the GOP and the Tea Party. Numerous examples are posted in this forum on a regular basis.

And myth #3 in the article on page 11 addresses the notion that AA is no longer needed.

Today the biggest factors creating advantages and disadvantages are economical.

If AA would be used to help people from poor backgrounds, regardless of race, then it will be difficoult for anybody to consider them discriminatory.
That is exactly what it is doing by aiding those who are still oppressed the most in this country: blacks, Hispanics, women, and ironically now in California whites themselves to a very limited extent. Besides, there are numerous scholarship opportunities available to poor whites and there always have been. This is nothing more than an attempt to continue to discriminate against minorities and even women.

The article points outs, but does not demonstrate anything.
The very people that AA helps do not think so. What more proof could possibly be needed that this argument is an obvious myth?

Although affirmative action may have this effect in some cases (Heilman, Simon, & Repper, 1987; Steele, 1990), interview studies and public opinion surveys suggest that such reactions are rare (Taylor, 1994). For instance, a 1995 Gallup poll asked employed Blacks and employed White women whether they had ever felt others questioned their abilities because of affirmative action (Roper Center for Public Opinion, 1995d). Nearly 90% of respondents said no (which is understandable -- after all, White men, who have traditionally benefited from preferential hiring, do not feel hampered by self-doubt or a loss in self-esteem). Indeed, in many cases affirmative action may actually raise the self-esteem of women and minorities by providing them with employment and opportunities for advancement. There is also evidence that affirmative action policies increase job satisfaction and organizational commitment among beneficiaries (Graves & Powell, 1994).

The only people whose psyches are apparently hurt by AA are a handful of very conservative whites who think they are now being discriminated against, despite still having an overwhelming advantage to attend colleges which are getting more and more expensive making them even more inaccessible to the victims of society.

Doesn't mean that all boat people fall in these descriptions.
You even imply that "many of them" supported war crimes... Just because they are Asian doesn't mean you have to denigrate them.
If somebody else would have wrote that he could be accused of being a racist.
You are just creating a straw man (*) as usual.
And I ironically obviously stated "all" didn't.

And being Asian has nothing to do with it. Many of those who did flee from Vietnam obviously did so in fear of their own lives because they had supported the brutal regime which tortured and murdered so many innocent people. This isn't racism. It is history. And many of these war criminals fled to the US and to Europe, and were never prosecuted for their atrocities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program

The Phoenix Program (Vietnamese: Chiến dịch Phụng Hoàng, a word related to fenghuang, the Chinese phoenix) was a controversial counterinsurgency program designed, coordinated, and executed by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), United States special operations forces, and the Republic of Vietnam's (South Vietnam) security apparatus during the Vietnam War that operated between 1967 and 1972.[1]

The Program was designed to identify the Viet Cong Infrastructure (VCI) supporting the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (NLF), more commonly referred to as the Vietcong (VC) and neutralize it through capture, coercion or killing its members. Phoenix Program operation were carried out by the South Vietnam’s National Police, National Police Field Force, Special Police Branch, U.S. and Vietnamese conventional armed forces; and by what became known as the Provincial Reconnaissance Units, or PRU’s.[1][2] By 1972, Phoenix operatives had neutralized 81,740 suspected NLF supporters, of whom 26,369 were killed.[1]

Results of the program’s effectiveness remain debated to this day however it is generally viewed by both US Military and former North Vietnamese officials as being the most productive counterinsurgency operation of the conflict and dealt a serious blow to the Viet Cong and the VCI.[2][3] The Phoenix Program was widely criticized by opponents of the conflict who called it little more than an “assassination program” utilizing “indiscriminate brutality” and a violation of international law. Much of the critical characterization arose from the classified nature of the program coupled with anecdotal, unsubstantiated, or false information relayed to the media and critical scholars about Phoenix.[4][5]

Torture

It has been alleged that civilians who were detained in interrogation centers were tortured in an attempt to gain intelligence on VC activities in the area.[10] and that few of the prisoners survived their interrogation.[15]

Military intelligence officer K. Milton Osborne states he witnessed the following use of torture:

"The use of the insertion of the 6-inch dowel into the canal of one of my detainee's ears, and the tapping through the brain until dead. The starvation to death (in a cage), of a Vietnamese woman who was suspected of being part of the local political education cadre in one of the local villages ... The use of electronic gear such as sealed telephones attached to ... both the women's vaginas and men's testicles [to] shock them into submission."[16]

Extrajudicial killings

Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, an intelligence-liaison officer for the Phoenix Program for two months in 1968 and a recipient of the Distinguished Service Cross said the following:[17][18]

“ The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say, 'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid they would not say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant, put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.' Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say, 'April Fool, m******.' Whoever answered the door would get wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to camp with ears to prove that they killed people. ”

Okamoto stated; "If Phoenix goes in and murders someone who was not Viet Cong, and they abuse the mother and the sister, well anybody in the family who survives is going to be a card-carrying Viet Cong by the next afternoon."[17]

False reporting

Charges that rival Vietnamese would report their enemies as "VC" in order to get U.S. troops to kill them were also made as well as allegations that Phung Hoang chiefs were incompetent bureaucrats who used their positions to enrich themselves.[19]
This is just one program which was orchestrated by the CIA. The South Vietnamese programs were far worse.



Granting advantages for categories of people according to their race is prejudicial by definition.
Racial prejudice or discrimination is, by definition, racism.
Just because you and a handful of others claim that is so obviously doesn't make it so.

Once again, the vast majority of sociology experts agree that AA has done much already, and that much still needs to be done. Even the legislature of California now sees what a huge mistake it was to repeal AA. Eventually, all of these programs will eventually be restarted, because hollow rhetoric and absurd claims of racism just don't work all that well against facts.
 
Once again, the vast majority of sociology experts agree that AA has done much already, and that much still needs to be done. Even the legislature of California now sees what a huge mistake it was to repeal AA. Eventually, all of these programs will eventually be restarted, because hollow rhetoric just doesn't work all that well against facts.

It's racist, but it does help people. There is no contradiction there.
 
I'm actually not sure that the bill itself would achieve since UC Berkeley (and therefore all the UCs in theory) found a workaround for race that I think is appropriate: if you talk about race in your essay, and they are interested in you as a candidate, they request a followup essay to expand on that plus ask for letters of rec (something they don't normally do). They actually do this with a lot of topics, i.e. disabilities etc. This way it's really personalized and not a broad plus or minus racially.

I suppose the bill could affect the CSU system, but with all due respect to that system, if you can't get in on standard academic criteria you simply aren't ready. I'd be surprised if the CSU has the funding for programs to watch over promising but undertrained candidates that aren't so promising that they aren't UC material, anyway.


For those who don't know the California college system, you have 3 tiers of public schools. University of Californa, California State University, and community college. The third is intended in large part to feed into the first two. Except maybe for "Cal Poly", the least selective UC is more selective than the most selective CSU.
 
I think that socioeconomic AA would make a lot more sense. The people who keep crying "racism!" are anything but convincing.
 
That is exactly what it is doing by aiding those who are still oppressed the most in this country: blacks, Hispanics, women, and ironically now in California whites themselves to a very limited extent.
Folks, right here is the perfect demonstration of the faux-logic that is behind the absurd and outrageously racist AA.

Just because whites are underrepresented in colleges in Cali, Forma here draws the conclusion that they must be being oppressed (to a very limited extent).
But they are not being oppressed at all! There's no evidence for that! Just like blacks and "hispanics" and women aren't being oppressed just because they too are underrepresented (actually, women are overrepresented).

Correlation does not imply causation! Race is not the key factor here, as already made obvious ad nauseam by the comparisson of Asians and Latin Americans and "regular" blacks with african immigrants and their children, which the proponents of race-based AA refuse to address because it goes against their dogma.

It's patently obvious that we're dealing with people who are dogmatically attached to the notion that racism must be the cause behind perceived inequalities, all evidence be damned.

The more we look at the problem, the better the statistics are analysed, the clearer it becomes that the dominant factors are socio-economic (including cultural factors). A racial "remedy" is just wrong.

BvBPL said:
No. If redlining wouldn’t do as an example of institutional racism then there isn’t any point in citing additional examples as you are likely to dismiss them out of hand.

This is likely why people did not respond to your previous inquiries.
I was drawing a comparison between Asians and Latin Americans and you come up with a (poorly based) story about blacks being denied bank loans in the past. And you wonder why I found the example unfitting.
 
Some of us are working off the first definition, and some of us are working off the second definition.

There is nothing prejudicial about AA. And not all discrimination is racism. Some white women prefer black males as lovers. That doesn't make them racists. The only people who seem to think that AA is racist is a small group of conservatives. Even prominent Republican presidents have openly supported AA.

Granting advantages for categories of people according to their race is prejudicial by definition.
Racial prejudice or discrimination is, by definition, racism.

Just because you and a handful of others claim that is so obviously doesn't make it so.

Hey, argue with Merriam-Webster. All that aside, it is simply a label and doesn't matter one way or the other except rhetorically. The real question is will AA meet or come close to meeting the goal of reducing the immediate effects of institutional racial discrimination and thus reduce institutional discrimination itself over the long term, and is meeting those goals worth the downsides?
 
Verterans programs arent really AA....and that link is for employment opportunites, not educational preferences.

Second link isnt even about AA at all, but something called 'legacy preference'...giving children of alumni preference as opposed to race.

It seems your claim that AA helps whites is based upon programs that arent even really defined as AA.
AA is for both emplyment and education. Veterans get advantages in both as my link demonstrated (heck they even called it AA). Legacy admissions are the original AA - giving the dumb kids of alums an advantage over those not burdened with alums as parents.
as far as I know veteran comes of all colours, and these programs do discriminate by race.
They only give some employment help to people that served the country, independently from rage, religion, gender, political affiliation, sexual orientation, etc.


AA is by definition discriminatory: it gives advantages to groups of peoples, categories, on the base of race (and sometime gender).
My assertion wasn't that thezse programs discrimkinate by race, but that plenty of white people get affirmative action. These programs clearly give plenty of white people affirmative action. Just because you cannot conceive of aspects of affirmative action that are not racial in nature does not mean we have to stick to your narrow, race-based definition in evaluating the concept.

The concept of affirmative action applies to many categories beyond race - gender, socioeconomic background, veteran status, disability, age, secual orientation. Lasttiome I checked, plenty of white people compose all of those categories. It is not my fault that when you all look at the term affirmative action, all you can see is race.
 
I think I've isolated the issue.



Some of us are working off the first definition, and some of us are working off the second definition.


Not even that really. Because it fails to answer the question of whether AA is actually discriminatory. Does AA deny anything to whites? No, it does not. Or, you could claim that at worst it denies them an advantage that was not earned, but rather a taken advantage. AA is an imperfect remedy for leveling the playing field. It does not take anything from whites.
 
Folks, right here is the perfect demonstration of the faux-logic that is behind the absurd and outrageously racist AA.
I was merely referring the article I posted earlier on page 4:

Researchers in this new study, noting the negative effect affirmative action bans have had on Whites, wrote “This action not only reduced the diversity of their [Whites] educational experience, but it also affected its quality by limiting the expression of different viewpoints in and out of the classroom. As one of the authors of this essay remarked on many occasions, ‘affirmative action is not just for ‘them,’ it is for all of us.’”
Affirmative action simply isn't the "racist" policy that some conservatives falsely allege. This is born out by the vast majority of experts who agree the program has had immense positive impact in the past and should be continued into the future.

Fortunately, the California legislature now agrees with them and has now reimplemented this fine program to address the negative impact of continuing racism and actual discrimination in the US.
 
Doesn't it though? It reserves certain positions for non-whites, doesn't it?

But are whites truly excluded? Is anyone denied an opportunity because they are white? No. They just have to compete harder.
 
Doesn't it though? It reserves certain positions for non-whites, doesn't it?
Current programs certainly don't. Those programs were discontinued long ago once there were at least some blacks in higher-level government jobs and education in predominately or all-white public schools and colleges.
 
Doesn't it though? It reserves certain positions for non-whites, doesn't it?

That would be "quotas" and that's not what affirmative action is. Proponents of affirmative action understand that quotas are generally not very helpful.
 
Doesn't it though? It reserves certain positions for non-whites, doesn't it?
Quotas were ruled unconstitution by the Supreme Court. I forget the case name though.
 
AA is for both emplyment and education. Veterans get advantages in both as my link demonstrated (heck they even called it AA). Legacy admissions are the original AA - giving the dumb kids of alums an advantage over those not burdened with alums as parents.

Again, its a misnomer to call veterans programs AA..for example, federal jobs carry a 5 or 10 point bonus for vets applying to them, but its not referred to as "AA" in any form. Just because a college mistakenly refers to it as AA doesnt make it AA.

And neither is the legacy thing labeled AA in the story you linked, thus its not really AA either. In fact, your own link refers to AA as being racial in nature. In that aspect, your own link seems to disagree with your premise.
 
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