Best Creative Leader

[budweiser]

If Willem puts up a dike, his coastal tiles are 2f 1h 3c. That beats a lot of land tiles.

 

[madscientist]

The problem with the dike is that it comes late, is expensive, and to be different than a levee requires a coatal city which generally has lower production to start. It is very strong but getting them up and going can sometimes be a real chore, sometimes it requires US and a hefty treasury.

 

[NihilZero]

Not much love here for Pericles. I picked him because he is obne of the most broken leaders.

1) Fast Libraries coupled with Philosophical means he can get Great Scientists out faster than any other leader.

That depends. You have to get to Writing first, and Pericles is in a bad position to get there since he usually needs to fill out many vital, basic techs first. I'm sure Gilgamesh or Hatshepsut could get there faster on average, starting as they do with the Wheel and Agriculture.

I agree with your other points, although I do think Louis rivals Pericles in the culture stakes.

Regarding Willem and the Dike, the strength of this UB is not so much that it improves sea tiles, but that it has a lot of flexibility in where you put it compared to a regular Levee. Yes, it is overrated, but it's definitely decent for that reason.

 

[r_rolo1]

Nobody is saying that the Dike is a bad UB ( unlike it's Portuguese cousin ), but it is clearly not as good as credited by a lot of people. And that bloated preception of the Dike usefulness definitely makes a good part of the perception people have of Willew of the Dutch as a leader/civ combo. In other words, people think the Dike is such good as a UB as the East Indiaman is as a UU in a watery map, when it would be more like the viking UU in average, good in the right setting but not GOOOOOOD

 

[madscientist]

I cannot remember the tech tree that well but I think he needs agriculture/wheel and AH or Pottery. Hunting means he can take archery earlier and worry less about military like Mining/BW (both of which Gilgamesh and HAtty need) while heading towards writing. Philosophical means he will pop those GSs before Egypt or Summeria. Also any seafood for Pericles means a high food/commerce tile early on speeding along research faster.

It does depend on the map though between those three.

I agree on the dike, they are very flexible as getting riverside hammer while NOT building on the river (like a lake) is a big deal.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Has to be Hatshepsut. The combination of Creative with the second feature, unique unit and starting techs allows for a great fast start. Furthermore, that fast start can be done in more than just one fashion (not necessary to choose to build a large War Chariot army and quickly attack). Everyone has experienced how important a fast start is. Others are also good but coming from behind with good late game features is much more difficult and often impossible.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If Willem puts up a dike, his coastal tiles are 2f 1h 3c. That beats a lot of land tiles.

So after providing us this 1.5 liner blanket statement w/o support, do you care to point out which land tiles those are?

Improvements/options in the same era with comparable or better yields:

- Town, on any terrain its allowed, but especially on grassland
- Workshops under appropriate civics
- Windmills on non-desert/tundra/ice
- Mines on non-desert/tundra/ice
- Grassland farms, ANY biology farm.
- Rep specialists
- (if cap limited) specialists.

The commerce is not insignificant, but unless you've worked in a full-on rush buy it's not going to give you much in the way of production, which is really the only appeal to the dike (levees do not boost commerce!). When pointing out the 2f 1h 3c, don't forget that a significant portion of your analysis already has as much to do with the trait synergy as it does the UB itself.

But even now you've not attempted to refute the point that other UBs, including the woefully hated-in-polls shale plant, have the the ability to outperform the dike bonuses with some consistency. Indeed I am *not* saying the UB sucks, but rather that it is only a minor factor when picking between these leaders. The UB is very average, with some nice advantages that come mid game. It's no clunker like the assembly plant, but it isn't a sac altar, ikhanda, or hammam either.

 

[budweiser]

Lets call this 2f 1h 3c tile a 6 tile because 1f = 1h = 1c for purposes of this discussion.

To get those as Willem, I need a lighthouse and a dike, then the tiles become free and clear with no worker turns invested to get the bonus, and are food nuetral. The strength of financial comes from working more tiles that give 3c, so I want to be working as many 3c tiles as possible. Of course, I still want my towns and my windmills.

But since I am geared for sea power and if I am doing it right, then I also want some overseas trade routes so I may be running merc and rep for now, but may want free trade later. So it all compounds on itself and manifests in an early industrial gunpowder conquest where the game is decided. Japan's ability to strike with UB enabled comes a little later.

Now I just phsyced myself up for a nice aggressive game as Willem.

 

[Jerrymander]

Lets call this 2f 1h 3c tile a 6 tile because 1f = 1h = 1c for purposes of this discussion.

A six tile! Every Town is a six tile by that logic, turning into nine tiles with techs and civics. The votes are in, cottages are better than dikes.

That was easy.

 

[budweiser]

A six tile! Every Town is a six tile by that logic, turning into nine tiles with techs and civics. The votes are in, cottages are better than dikes.

That was easy.

Not so fast, you cant put a cottage on the coast and they take 50 turns to mature.

 

[Calouste]

The problem with the dike is that it comes late, is expensive, and to be different than a levee requires a coatal city which generally has lower production to start. It is very strong but getting them up and going can sometimes be a real chore, sometimes it requires US and a hefty treasury.

You don't build dikes in most cities. You either whip them (at size 12 with a Forge and OR) or buy them.

 

[Calouste]

5 coast tiles (0 shale, 5 dike)

If you're settling your coastal cities with only 5 coast tiles when playing Willem, you're not playing him right. You max the amount of coastal tiles you can grab and give the land tiles to your inland cities, so you have 10-20% more productive tiles than other civs on the same amount of land.

 

[madscientist]

You don't build dikes in most cities. You either whip them (at size 12 with a Forge and OR) or buy them.

I have never been a big fan of whipping that late in the game. US is fine but I always seam to have happiness issues when I leave Representation or HR.

 

[shyuhe]

I agree with rolo - people are projecting their bias of the dike as a great UB on to Willem as a good leader.

I'd much rather have a grass workshop (guilds + chemistry + caste system + state property) at 2/4.4/0 over a 2/1/3 coastal tile. Coins don't translate into hammers at a 1:1 ratio because of the rush buy mechanics. Assuming no Kremlin, 3 gold translates into one hammer. 3 coins with bank + grocer + market in a city at 0% slider translate into 6 gold, or 2 hammers. So the dike coastal tile is equivalent to 2/3.3/0 (assuming state-property to be fair). About the only "good" I see from the dike is that you gain "free" hammers if you're growing a coastal city to max size (for better trade routes). But it's really not that much of a difference -- it's not enough of a game changing building for me to alter my settlement strategy as compared to say, a terrace.

 

[Higher Game]

So many good leaders here.

I think strong cases can be made for Willem (I voted for him), Zara, Hatshepsut, and Pericles.

Pericles = cheap libraries, which pump out fast scientists for education, where he then picks up cheap universities. He's very good at winning the race to liberalism. The phalanx isn't so great, but the odeon is; it usually gives more culture than the stele except in wonder cities. Border cities that want more culture to win tiles usually aren't the wonder builders.

Zara = cheap courthouses and civics, a solid UU (though at a bad time for war), but a weak UB. I think there's just a bit less synergy here, but he's still a beast, and he looks better every difficulty level you move up.

Willem = Financial, solid UU and UB that give consistent benefits. He's the most well rounded and finishes strong but he is probably inferior to Pericles and Hatshepsut early in the game.

Hatshepsut = Wicked sick UU, and that's about it. Priests and temples just don't have the same power as a proper economic trait. Gilgamesh is in the same boat, but protective is even worse even though he has a great UB too. Ditto for Kublai minus a good UB.


As for TMIT turning this thread into a dike bashing one...

A golden age dike in a city with the other production buildings, and a military academy (just for fun; consider the heroic epic or a laboratory or other stuff as well), gives you an extra 5 hammers per water/river tile. That is NO JOKE on water maps. Or any map for that matter. It is a serious boost to production at a critical time in the game. Soon afterward, nukes end the era of Doom Stacks and commerce becomes all important for the space race (and the Dutch win there too).

There are strong reasons to pick the other guys over the Dutch. The dike isn't one of them.

 

[DMOC]

I voted Willem not because of the dike but because of how I enjoy using a combination of Financial with Creative (get lots of land and commerce going early). However, I would have no qualms at all playing with people like Zara and Pericles.

EDIT: That, and that I am playing him in my current game!

 

[ICNP]

I just had to go with my gut, and vote for the guy that's always a hoot (if your willing to restart if horse is lacking), Kublai Khan. I suppose Hattie is the better rusher, but as an AI she's so damn peaceful I just can't vote for her.

Willem is of course, Financial, so he wins on water, but on land, the Czarina with the horse wins.

 

[Jerrymander]

Not so fast, you cant put a cottage on the coast and they take 50 turns to mature.

Can't put cottages on the coast? What have you been smoking? And by the time Dikes come around most of the cottages will be mature.

Keep bailing the water from your ship.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I just had to go with my gut, and vote for the guy that's always a hoot (if your willing to restart if horse is lacking), Kublai Khan. I suppose Hattie is the better rusher, but as an AI she's so damn peaceful I just can't vote for her.

Willem is of course, Financial, so he wins on water, but on land, the Czarina with the horse wins.

I agree that as an AI, Hattie usually doesn't do much. However, a number of the AI's fit this picture. I think the best AI Creative leader would be Gilgamesh or Cathy. Protective.

I think Hattie's the best or one of the best in human hands. Kublai is fun to play, admittedly.

 

[Higher Game]

Zara Yaqob is easily the toughest AI of this group, with Gilgamesh a close second.