Best Way To Defeat the Right?

[Farm Boy]

None of the faiths function very well in a democratic society, they each run into failure modes and then need to be 'reinterpreted' such that they can survive having and sharing power.

Faith needs constantly reinterpreted for more reason than democracy. I don't understand the fundamental assertion. Totally lost.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I'm sure it is not most people's goal. Too many people are impatient and unrealistic. I think it is the appropriate goal if one wants to see meaningful change in the next decade.

I think there might be a disagreement about what is meaningful change.
Certainly I don't think Blair, Clinton or Obama effected meaningful changes.
The best that might be said for them is that the right would've been a lot worse, and thats not nothing but it isn't meaningful change either.

 

[Farm Boy]

The right changes. It takes change to pace with them. Or against. However you view the dance.

 

[Zardnaar]

Why do you repeat the right-wing's inaccurate slurs though?
Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, Ocasio-Cortez. None of them are or have ever been Communists.

Never said they were. You can't run as an actual communist was what I said

Context was actually anti capitalism you can't do that. I don't think a social democrat is anti capitalism.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think there might be a disagreement about what is meaningful change.
Certainly I don't think Blair, Clinton or Obama effected meaningful changes.
The best that might be said for them is that the right would've been a lot worse, and thats not nothing but it isn't meaningful change either.

That's a generational thing though. Right now they can really only hold the line.

In a democracy the other side will eventually win and then start reversing what you did.

FDR and the other Dena locked down the government for 20 years and it took another 20 years to start dismantling their work.

Obama ran of hope and change but even if he was genuine there's only so much he can do in 8 years.

Our political critter ran on fixing the housing crisis and made it a lot worse and her numbers are down.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Never said they were. You can't run as an actual communist was what I said

Context was actually anti capitalism you can't do that. I don't think a social democrat is anti capitalism.

What you actually said was "You can be a social democratic type capitalist but not a Communist or whatever else." which is vague to the point of meaningless.
Not sure what actual relevance this has to the conversation. Except in France actual Communists aren't of any real political importance in Western democracies nowadays.

 

[Narz]

That sure sounds a bit like an atheist in the Whitehouse who stayed in the closet and pretended to be Christian so as to not upset conservatives. You must be so proud @Narz , was he everything you hoped and dreamed he would be!

Why would I want that?

Ideally someone would have the balls to admit they don't believe in fairy tales.

Just calling it how it is. We're more likely to get a black transgender voodoo practioner as president than an unapologetic atheist.

And I agree that we've already have closet atheists in the office, Trump unlikely to be the 1st. Obama and Bush Jr didn't seem overly pious and probably just paid lip service.

Reagan and his wife were pretty woo and didn't see too bright so they probably were true beleivers.

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, if the atheists we've had don't count, and only one who actively seeks to **** on the sacred of others will do, then sure. What's not to like about a black voodoo transgender person? Least it sounds like you're implying that person probably believes in something? Sure sounds better than being led by somebody that believes in nothing, the least of all your dreams and purpose.

 

[AdrienIer]

What you actually said was "You can be a social democratic type capitalist but not a Communist or whatever else." which is vague to the point of meaningless.
Not sure what actual relevance this has to the conversation. Except in France actual Communists aren't of any real political importance in Western democracies nowadays.

No actual communist is of real political importance in France today. In the 2002 presidential election the real communists got 10% of the votes (just under 2m votes divided between 3 candidates), last presidential election the two communist candidates got less than 2% (600k votes).

 

[Edmund Ironside]

In a democracy the other side will eventually win and then start reversing what you did.

Yeah this is a problem. Trump managed to reverse nearly everything Obama had achieved within a few months. The main legacy Obama has left is the Affordable Care Act, and that only survived Trump and the Republicans by the skin of its teeth. Of course Trump experienced the other side of this when Biden came in and reversed most of what he had done. This desire to just reverse what the other side has done rather then build on it, probably does not do much to better develop a country. I guess the best chance the left has of avoiding this, is making changes early in a presidency and prove that they are beneficial so that it becomes politically problematic for the Republicans to repeal it. Easier said then done I know!

And I agree that we've already have closet atheists in the office, Trump unlikely to be the 1st. Obama and Bush Jr didn't seem overly pious and probably just paid lip service.

I thought Obama & George W Bush seemed pretty committed Christians. I remember once that Tony Blair was asked if he and George W Bush prayed together! I guess we could argue all day about which presidents were genuine in their beliefs and which were just nominal Christians for the sake of better electability. Out of the presidents during my lifetime so far (Reagan, George H Bush, Clinton, George W Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden) besides Trump the other one that gave me the impression of possibly just going through the motions was Clinton.

For those interested in the religion of the US presidents, Mr. Beat has a good run down of all the US presidents:

 

[Gorbles]

Hmmm... I would have thought that a sound progressive platform could be built around: healthcare, racial equality, voting rights, income equality, tax reform, infrastructure, climate change, social programs, and education. Wasting energy and money going after guns, Christians religious right, and corporations in general has been and will continue to be a losing path.

The problem you have is the demographics you describe also have opinions on the things you claim a progressive platform (that enjoys popular support) can be built on.

Not to mention that capitalism is frequently criticised as a factor in the problems (you list to be solved) by leftists. I'm not here to turn the thread into a thread about capitalism, I'm just pointing out the correlation made.

You definitely don't want a progressive leftist, and maybe not a leftist at all. That last one's kind of a semantic hole to go down, so let's just stick to not wanting a progressive Progressive healthcare alone (or anything approximating it) gets gutted on sight. If the Democrats as existing in the current power structure cannot get through bills as they'd like, what hope does any realistic progressive platform have?

Leftists frequently get told to be realistic. We have done many times in this thread alone. I'm not sure your suggestion is realistic enough to be feasible. Though I'm sure that doesn't stop individuals, or even small groups, from trying, nor would I want folks to. But as a platform? I'd be interested in seeing how you see that coming to be.

 

[Zardnaar]

The problem you have is the demographics you describe also have opinions on the things you claim a progressive platform (that enjoys popular support) can be built on.

Not to mention that capitalism is frequently criticised as a factor in the problems (to be solved you list) by leftists. I'm not here to turn the thread into a thread about capitalism, I'm just pointing out the correlation made.

You definitely don't want a progressive leftist, and maybe not a leftist at all. That last one's kind of a semantic hole to go down, so let's just stick to not wanting a progressive Progressive healthcare alone (or anything approximating it) gets gutted on sight. If the Democrats as existing in the current power structure cannot get through bills as they'd like, what hope does any realistic progressive platform have?

Leftists frequently get told to be realistic. We have done many times in this thread alone. I'm not sure your suggestion is realistic enough to be feasible. Though I'm sure that doesn't stop individuals, or even small groups, from trying, nor would I want folks to. But as a platform? I'd be interested in seeing how you see that coming to be.

Main problem with leftists is there's not enough of them.

Even then it's a loose coalition with no defining message. My entire social circle votes left but none are what you call "progressive" as such.

By that I mean online progressive types even if they believe in most of the progressives goals.

The olde ones fail a few if the modern progressive ideas as well more old school unionist types.

Mostly they vote for NZ Labour party, some of the women vote Greens if Labour has uninspiring leaders or other problems or do split votes Labour/Greens.

Personally I voted for a Green candidate and Labour party and the Mayor is a greenie. Labour candidate was a douche canoe and the Green guy had a cool sounding name. Sister in law went with the same strategy

 

[AmazonQueen]

Main problem with leftists is there's not enough of them.

Even then it's a loose coalition with no defining message. My entire social circle votes left but none are what you call "progressive" as such.

By that I mean online progressive types even if they believe in most of the progressives goals.

The olde ones fail a few if the modern progressive ideas as well more old school unionist types.

Mostly they vote for NZ Labour party, some of the women vote Greens if Labour has uninspiring leaders or other problems or do split votes Labour/Greens.

Personally I voted for a Green candidate and Labour party and the Mayor is a greenie. Labour candidate was a douche canoe and the Green guy had a cool sounding name. Sister in law went with the same strategy

Main problem as I see it is that people like you see power as more important than principle and are ready to surrender everything to the right just to get it.
That just leaves the right laughing as you do their work for them and they move ever further rightward.

 

[bernie14]

No actual communist is of real political importance in France today. In the 2002 presidential election the real communists got 10% of the votes (just under 2m votes divided between 3 candidates), last presidential election the two communist candidates got less than 2% (600k votes).

Hoe many votes did the monarchists get?

 

[Zardnaar]

Main problem as I see it is that people like you see power as more important than principle and are ready to surrender everything to the right just to get it.
That just leaves the right laughing as you do their work for them and they move ever further rightward.

So has going further left paid of electorally anywhere in the Anglosphere?

Canada and NZ the only ones with a vaguely left government? Jacindas an urban liberal everyone knows it but she didn't campaign on being woke.

 

[Gorbles]

So has going further left paid of electorally anywhere in the Anglosphere?

Depends on how many people vote based on how cool they think a candidate's name is, I guess.

 

[Birdjaguar]

The problem you have is the demographics you describe also have opinions on the things you claim a progressive platform (that enjoys popular support) can be built on.

Not to mention that capitalism is frequently criticised as a factor in the problems (you list to be solved) by leftists. I'm not here to turn the thread into a thread about capitalism, I'm just pointing out the correlation made.

You definitely don't want a progressive leftist, and maybe not a leftist at all. That last one's kind of a semantic hole to go down, so let's just stick to not wanting a progressive Progressive healthcare alone (or anything approximating it) gets gutted on sight. If the Democrats as existing in the current power structure cannot get through bills as they'd like, what hope does any realistic progressive platform have?

Leftists frequently get told to be realistic. We have done many times in this thread alone. I'm not sure your suggestion is realistic enough to be feasible. Though I'm sure that doesn't stop individuals, or even small groups, from trying, nor would I want folks to. But as a platform? I'd be interested in seeing how you see that coming to be.

Tell me then what is the Progressive leftist platform you want?

 

[Zardnaar]

Depends on how many people vote based on how cool they think a candidate's name is, I guess.

Throw away protest vote. Party vote matters and the labour candidate was gonna win regardless.

If the Green candidate won he still would have gotten in regardless off the Labour list and whoever is at the bottom of the green list misses out.

 

[AmazonQueen]

So has going further left paid of electorally anywhere in the Anglosphere?

Canada and NZ the only ones with a vaguely left government? Jacindas an urban liberal everyone knows it but she didn't campaign on being woke.

Going right didn't pay off either.
When Blair and the like were in power they were too scared about losing it to use it then lost it anyway to a Tory party than had gone further right economically (although Cameron recognised changing moods and was much more "woke" than his party liked).

 

[Zardnaar]

Going right didn't pay off either.
When Blair and the like were in power they were too scared about losing it to use it then lost it anyway to a Tory party than had gone further right economically (although Cameron recognised changing moods and was much more "woke" than his party liked).

After how long though? Any party gets thrown out eventually after a few electoral cycles.

Even if a left wing party gets in and does nothing that's an improvement over the right who will actively hurt people you're supposed to look after.