Best Way To Defeat the Right?

Sarah Silverman surrenders

Apparently Florida governor DeSantis wants to start an auxiliary citizen unit to supplement the Natl Guard.

Joy Reid of MSNBC accused DeSantis of fascisty bananas.

22 other states have the same thing including NY and California.

Sarah Silverman asked Joy to do a better job reporting the truth and Sarah got both barrels from the echo chamber.

Aint gonna defeat the right following that game plan

Birdjaguar, I feel like I have no choice but to report you to the Admins for your poor conduct in this thread. I will refrain from posting further in this thread as I do not think I can do so without PDMA.

I think you're misreading his argument

thwarting Russia in Syria

He let Russia save Assad
 
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This fact did not change for the tens of millions enslaved and killed.
Irrelevant.

The fact of non-Jewish personhood was well-defined in Central and Eastern Europe for a period from 1933 to 1945. Do you believe that Jews in Europe were no longer people because the regionally dominant power defined them as such? If you do, then there's really no point in bothering with this conversation.

Do you believe Apartheid South Africa was a democracy?

You keep saying "facts", but the fact of Africans being human beings actually does not change based on time period. I'm not a moral relativist on this issue.

Africans, at the time, saw themselves as human. Why are you prioritizing the definitions and standards of the slavers over the enslaved?

So?

They devised voting laws to serve their material interests. Material conditions do not spring forth from the realm of ideas.

Correct.

My father was not able to move into the neighborhood I live in now until recent memory because of redlining, a policy that has been officially illegal since the 1970s but more or less in effect in this area until the last few decades. This is the result of "atrocities of the past" that, while they don't affect you obviously (no one whose family who was affected by this country's legacy of genocide and slavery would talk like you do), do resonate in my family today and in our society today. Who you choose to uphold as democratic and good, who you forgive because it was "the beliefs (of whites, because the opinion of non-whites implicitly do not matter in your telling) of the time", is the result of the material reality of these genocides and who "won" to write the history books.

The present does not spring from nothing. History is a series of events, of cause and effects.

Edit: The only way to argue that the US was a democracy in the 19th century is by saying the opinion of the millions of enslaved Africans and displaced indigenous peoples must be weighted against the opinion of the people enslaving and killing them. There is, functionally, no other way to make the argument.
I've been over my thoughts several times in this thread and it's quite clear that either you do not understand them or dismiss them as antagonistic towards all you believe. In any case we seem to be talking past one another now and I do not think anything I say will influence your thoughts or improve your understanding. We do not share the same perspective on how one should look at history. I can live with that. :)
 
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Yeah its a real shame that the winner of this thread will determine the next united states president, a real bummer that we couldn’t get our act together, fellow Leftist.

I assume you are a Leftist also, da? Certainly you’re not doing that tedious thing where you give advice to your opponents that you hate. That would be silly and a waste of everyone’s time.
Overall, yes I'm a leftist, because most of my core values are typically those that you can find on the left (equality for all, pro-regulations for economy so it serves people rather than having people serve it, strongly pro-environment, etc.).
That being said, "the left" is a big thing, with a wide array of values, and I'm certainly not a "fellow leftist" for one such as you (and a bunch of others) as I explained in a previous post, just like I was never a "fellow leftist" for Stalin or Chavez.

It's all already explained, really, though the very point was that blind zealotry makes people unable to see past their own little pet ideology, so I guess it's not surprising to see those concerned not getting it.
 
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I answered many pages ago.

You meanwhile are just nitpicking others and offered no answers as per usual.
No, you didn't. Your last reply to me (at least where I was quoted or tagged) was here. I replied directly to it, and nada from you since.

I'm actually not posting that much in here, so I have no idea why you're trying to accuse me of random nonsense. Are you that bad at handling opinions that differ from yours? I am not any other person in the thread, if you could not project whatever general thread annoyance you might have onto me, that'd be a good start.

I dont know why you're asking me, I haven't accused leftists of either.
Didn't say you had.
I was in that echo chamber until leftist voices outside led me to the light.
lol, no
 
No, you didn't. Your last reply to me (at least where I was quoted or tagged) was here. I replied directly to it, and nada from you since.
I answered the OP early on. It's not all about back & forths. That's why there's an OP. Of course almost no one seems to have responded to it, preferring infighting. Which may be an answer to the OP in itself. :hmm:
 
I answered the OP early on. It's not all about back & forths. That's why there's an OP. Of course almost no one seems to have responded to it, preferring infighting. Which may be an answer to the OP in itself. :hmm:
I said I was still waiting on an answer from you. Not the OP.

It's very funny considering you're moaning at others for not responding precisely in the way that you'd prefer. But yeah, don't worry about it. You do you. Let others actually discuss the thread; you can call it "infighting" if you want. Sometimes things don't have easy answers, but again - not something you need to worry yourself about :D
 
Anyone who can improve relations with both Israel and Saudi Arabia is no slouch. Defeating ISIS, thwarting Russia in Syria, Boxing in Iran, the Abrahamic Accords are some of his other major accomplishments in the region. Domestically he produced record-low unemployment among women and minorities, FIRST STEP, energy independence, more than a dozen trade agreements, tax reform, stopped the flood of illegals across the Mexican border, and produced the COVID vaccine a year ahead of schedule. Oh yeah, he appointed and confirmed a ton of judges. it's a long list. I surely forgot something important.

Now if I reply to this I am clearly going off topic. However as most of this thread seems to fall under that category, not sure if that is a problem or not!
I guess I will keep it brief, as just say I respectively disagree with this list. It includes mainly things that shouldn't be considered achievements and things he didn't actually achieve.
For example being friends with both Israel and Saudi Arabia is not a massive achievement. "Oh hey Israel, oh hey Saudi Arabia, you both really hate Iran, so do I, lets all be friends!" "Hey did someone say Jamal Khashoggi? I know I didn't!"

I'm surprised you didn't mention China. Not that I would label Trumps dealings with them an accomplishment (it is too early to tell if the tariff policy was beneficial or negative). But I know MAGA fans generally approved of his dealings with them.

Perhaps more to the point, under Trump the EPA was again focussed on clear air, water, and soil.

EPA under trump:
1. Powers gutted.
2. Filled with fossil fuel lobbyists instead of scientists.
3. Censoring any mention of climate change from the EPA.
4. But perhaps one name will sum up everything that was wrong with Trump, his climate policy, and his dealing with the EPA, 'Scott fudging Pruitt!'
Great job Trump! :clap::sarcasm:


Also I should probably answer the opening post question.
1. Better educate people about the environment and climate change, so that climate change deniers like Trump and Bolsonaro are a thing of the past.
2. A pragmatic advance of the leftists agenda. Choose your battles wisely, if you push too hard and too fast, the push back will be worse.
3. The popularists right tends to live on fear, try and ease that fear, showing them why they shouldn't fear whatever boogeyman they have constructed.
4. In the USA we need voting reform. Passing the Freedom to Vote Act would be a start.
5. The left needs to be better at turning out to vote, and not just in the big elections. In the USA at least, when turn out is high, the left nearly always wins.
 
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Wouldn't it be easiest to say that 'democracy' is a spectrum, and that there are no true democracies?

If something can be circular, while it's fundamentally impossible to be truly circular, then it should be possible to be democratic without being 'truly democratic'.

Regardless, a proper government needs a pluralistic mandate. If not solely of people who agree, but also of people that don't mind.
 
If the people who gave us democracy limited citizenship and voting rights it stands to reason democracies need not be 'pure', but the USA was a representative constitutional Republic with a division of enumerated powers. The north was free but still limited voting rights. If we want to find democracy look for egalitarian villages and tribes.

Didn't say you had.

lol, no

so it was a straw man... Glenn Greenwald, Aaron Mate and Jimmy Dore to name just a few are left wing. In what ways are they right wing? They criticize corporate Democrats. Ya... Nobody on the left does that.
 
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so it was a straw man... Glenn Greenwald, Aaron Mate and Jimmy Dore to name just a few are left wing. In what ways are they right wing? They criticize corporate Democrats. Ya... Nobody on the left does that.
Not a strawman, no. You not understanding something doesn't make that thing a strawman.

But you raise a good tangent about "defeating the right" in citing your alleged left-wing idols. Who aren't left wing by any cultural measure. Maybe economic. On some positions. But regardless, on the whole, they nowadays possess a bunch of right-wing opinions. If you were to average these, let's put them in the center somewhere then, perhaps. But not on the left.

People who claim to be leftist but advance, support or otherwise advocate for right-wing arguments are not leftist. They do not benefit leftist causes. Simple as that. Greenwald, for example, is neck-deep in ranting about "cancel culture" and other such typical conservative culture war nonsense.

And sure, these individuals may well have started out (more leftist). Greenwald was certainly a fine journalist in the past. Much like how Richard Dawkins was a keen biologist. But people don't stay one thing just because they were that thing in the past, and your championing of their arguments is a far more effective proof of them not being leftists than you could ever make me post.
 
ohhhh, but historically... is the "academic" equivalent to your cousin's harping on you cuz your aunt told them you played with your stool when you were a kid :crazyeye:
 
so it was a straw man... Glenn Greenwald, Aaron Mate and Jimmy Dore to name just a few are left wing. In what ways are they right wing? They criticize corporate Democrats. Ya... Nobody on the left does that.

Glenn Greenwald is not what anyone would call a "leftist". He's a libertarian with a long history of working with a tech billionaire. How many sources were "accidentally" burned by Greenwald and company over the years?

Aaron Mate is fine for what he is as far as I'm aware. Only come across him most of the time with him railing against Russiagate (as he should because no reasonable adult believes in it). Not sure (or really care) where he stands on who should control the means of production, which is the defining line between the left and right.

Jimmy Dore's a lot like Greenwald. Not really on the left but very briefly intersected with some social democratic demands.

Greenwald was certainly a fine journalist in the past.

He's a fine journalist when his narrowly-defined anti-imperialism hits a prism just right really. The way the Snowden trove was handled by him and the billionaire running the Intercept is very shady and yeah, these days he's too busy ranting and raving about cancel culture from the comfort of his million dollar compound in Brazil. Give it about, say, seven months, and he'll somehow stumble into supporting Bolsanaro probably, kinda like how libertarians (not all of course) often stumble into supporting Pinochet.

Wouldn't it be easiest to say that 'democracy' is a spectrum, and that there are no true democracies?

If you want to define a democracy as a system of government in which the masses of people can effectively levy change through the ballot box, then we can say the United States was not a democracy in the 19th century when the majority of the population (all Africans, all women, and even a good chunk of white men) could not vote at all. I suppose you could say the United States was a democracy for feudal planters and a competing mercantile bourgeoisie in the North if that definition of democracy is more cognitively comfortable.

If we do want to define the US as a democracy in the 19th century, then we need to specify for who was a democracy, but I don't think constantly qualifying the United States as a white man's democracy would be a comforting notion for liberals and the rest of the right either.
 
Restoration of the Fairness doctrine would be a good first step. Applying it to the internet would be tricky.

The fairness doctrine of the United States Federal Communications Commission (FCC), introduced in 1949, was a policy that required the holders of broadcast licenses both to present controversial issues of public importance and to do so in a manner that fairly reflected differing viewpoints.[1] In 1987, the FCC abolished the fairness doctrine,[2] prompting some to urge its reintroduction through either Commission policy or congressional legislation.[3] However later the FCC removed the rule that implemented the policy from the Federal Register in August 2011.[4]

The fairness doctrine had two basic elements: It required broadcasters to devote some of their airtime to discussing controversial matters of public interest, and to air contrasting views regarding those matters. Stations were given wide latitude as to how to provide contrasting views: It could be done through news segments, public affairs shows, or editorials. The doctrine did not require equal time for opposing views but required that contrasting viewpoints be presented. The demise of this FCC rule has been considered by some to be a contributing factor for the rising level of party polarization in the United States.[5][6]

While the original purpose of the doctrine was to ensure that viewers were exposed to a diversity of viewpoints, it was used by both the Kennedy and later the Johnson administration to harass political opponents operating on talk radio. In 1969 the United States Supreme Court, in Red Lion Broadcasting Co. v. FCC, upheld the FCC's general right to enforce the fairness doctrine where channels were limited. However, the Court did not rule that the FCC was obliged to do so.[7] The courts reasoned that the scarcity of the broadcast spectrum, which limited the opportunity for access to the airwaves, created a need for the doctrine.

The fairness doctrine is not the same as the equal-time rule, which is still in place. The fairness doctrine deals with discussion of controversial issues, while the equal-time rule deals only with political candidates.
 
Biden is moderate and bland. Which is a massive upgrade over Trump.
 
I said I was still waiting on an answer from you. Not the OP.

It's very funny considering you're moaning at others for not responding precisely in the way that you'd prefer. But yeah, don't worry about it. You do you. Let others actually discuss the thread; you can call it "infighting" if you want. Sometimes things don't have easy answers, but again - not something you need to worry yourself about :D
I'm not moaning @ others. I'm speaking to you.

And noone said the answers are easy but if you put half the effort you put into nitpicking other's posts as actually trying to answer OP's for yourself you might make a dent at least.
 
Biden is moderate and bland. Which is a massive upgrade over Trump.
On a long enough timeline it's the same, they're both doing diddly-squat about climate change & other global issues.

Even if you really consider it a "massive upgrade" to have Biden others don't which is why democrats can't stay in the white house. "Sleepy Joe" is an apt nickname, the guy is seems like he's sleepwalking his way thru the presidency.

To make an analogy we're all drowning and Trump is a maniacal lifeguard who says he's gonna save everyone but ends up drowning people more quickly. Biden also says he'll save everyone but he's not, on the plus side he's not making it worse as badly but mofos are still drowning and not being saved.
 
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