[Beyond the Sword] History In The Making

[Rusty Edge]

What I really need is a good negative trait for Free Market. As it stands right now, you get a -10% Production in all cities. That doesn't sit well with me. So... any ideas?

Free market negative idea: How about extra unhappiness in your poorest cities(those producing the least gold) representing the resentment of the lower class towards big business?

I guess that the drawback is under/unemployment due to mechanization and outsourcing. This does, of course make it easier to maintain a larger military.

Rather than an outright productivity reduction, I'd have a % idle population in a city, eating your food , consuming your treasure and not producing anything. Kind of like useless specialists, not nescessarily angry.

If you approached it that way, I assume you would idle your worst squares first, and not nescessarily take the 10% hit if you had 10% unemployed.

I'm not sure how to do it better without making more complex. If economies were easy to model, they could forecast them.

 

[Grave]

Free market negative idea: How about extra unhappiness in your poorest cities(those producing the least gold) representing the resentment of the lower class towards big business?


is this idea do-able for free market?

AFAIK it is not doable through the current xml tags.

However a -1 happiness in large cities would be logical. Poor people suffer more with free market economy as it tend to make rich people richer and poor people poorer. It is also more evident in larger cities.

I guess that the drawback is under/unemployment due to mechanization and outsourcing. This does, of course make it easier to maintain a larger military.

Rather than an outright productivity reduction, I'd have a % idle population in a city, eating your food , consuming your treasure and not producing anything. Kind of like useless specialists, not nescessarily angry.

OK, so you guys are saying, maybe... Unhappiness in "Largest" cities?

I can see that.

 

[zoidberg76]

Hi Grave!

Found a small error concerning the Roman Roads.

When you have access to stone, your constructur can build them. but only on plots that do noit contain any route yet.

Existing "normal" roads cannot be upgraded to the fast Roman Roads.

I fixed this by editing the CIV4RouteInfos.xml-file. Settin iValue for the Roman Roads to two (which should make them superior to normal roads) and Railroad to iValue of 3 (even more superior). This seems to work. Normal R can be upgraded to RoRo and both to Railroad.

I am looking forward to some fine hours of Civ-BtS-HiTM this weekend, thanks again to you, Grave.

Yours, Zoid

 

[Grave]

Hi Grave!

Found a small error concerning the Roman Roads.

When you have access to stone, your constructur can build them. but only on plots that do noit contain any route yet.

Existing "normal" roads cannot be upgraded to the fast Roman Roads.

I fixed this by editing the CIV4RouteInfos.xml-file. Settin iValue for the Roman Roads to two (which should make them superior to normal roads) and Railroad to iValue of 3 (even more superior). This seems to work. Normal R can be upgraded to RoRo and both to Railroad.

I am looking forward to some fine hours of Civ-BtS-HiTM this weekend, thanks again to you, Grave.

Yours, Zoid

Nice catch!

This will be included in the next patch.

 

[Cross Cowboy]

I dont agree with a free market making poor people "poorer"! Not true, in a free market, ie capitalistic market...anyone is free to make as much as they can...yes the rich get more...but those that are poor can still move up the ladder of capital...just takes more work. A free market is just that...anyone is free to trade..hard to have a negative with it, unless you consider that those who have money...are making more money with it. To bad there isnt some type of corruption you could put in place...with all the trade going on...theres always more corruption popping up as some try to sneak stuff under the radar. Course you could always have the barbarians attracted to all that trade and have them raid the leader in trade more...they could move in and leech off gold per turn haha. I think barbarians were after gold and such...at least in the movies . Im no business guru or anything..but thats just my take on it.

As for spiritual I can understand why there was no anarchy...especially during certain religions anyway. What happens in the now is not the primary focus of life...thus when govnts change or what not, those that are spiritual arent as affected. Yes, they can suffer from what the govnt changes too, but if you look at what they speak about..many simply arent concerned with changes like that...thus the no anarchy time. A Charismatic leader may be able to prevent the anarchy as well, though Im not sure if they could affect it as much as those with a spiritual view. Though a Spi/Cha would be interesting...perhaps one of those would have no anarchy as the combo would help to eliminate that. Also its hard talking matters of spiritualness because that can also vary from religion to religion, so you may have your hands full on that one Grave.

 

[Brave Jay]

I dont agree with a free market making poor people "poorer"! Not true, in a free market, ie capitalistic market...anyone is free to make as much as they can...yes the rich get more...but those that are poor can still move up the ladder of capital...just takes more work. A free market is just that...anyone is free to trade..hard to have a negative with it, unless you consider that those who have money...are making more money with it. To bad there isnt some type of corruption you could put in place...with all the trade going on...theres always more corruption popping up as some try to sneak stuff under the radar. Course you could always have the barbarians attracted to all that trade and have them raid the leader in trade more...they could move in and leech off gold per turn haha. I think barbarians were after gold and such...at least in the movies . Im no business guru or anything..but thats just my take on it.

As for spiritual I can understand why there was no anarchy...especially during certain religions anyway. What happens in the now is not the primary focus of life...thus when govnts change or what not, those that are spiritual arent as affected. Yes, they can suffer from what the govnt changes too, but if you look at what they speak about..many simply arent concerned with changes like that...thus the no anarchy time. A Charismatic leader may be able to prevent the anarchy as well, though Im not sure if they could affect it as much as those with a spiritual view. Though a Spi/Cha would be interesting...perhaps one of those would have no anarchy as the combo would help to eliminate that. Also its hard talking matters of spiritualness because that can also vary from religion to religion, so you may have your hands full on that one Grave.

The thing about free market is, the poor have the opportunity to get rich, but the vast majority stay close to the bottom at the mercy of the larger corporations. Some people are just not going to do what it takes to become wealthy. Many times those people are not as happy and clamour for government intervention.

As far as spiritual goes, some of the bloodiest revolutions have been religious based so I don't know how believing in a god would make a smoother transition, on the contrary, people with strong religious beliefs are usually the most resistant to changes in particuluar anything that might alter their rituals or philosophy. Charasmatic, however, makes more sense to me as the masses will tend to fall prey to an effective speaker/leader and go down the path that he/she takes them.

 

[mnlg]

A recent study of self-perceived happiness in world population [1] saw capitalist democracies quite up on the list (denmark, austria, switzerland, iceland), so I would say that capitalism does not necessarily imply unhappiness. However the existence of strong social services seems to be key in improving happiness level.

I brought this up already but IMHO the real drawback of free market is less care for the environment. I think it would make sense to make Free Market cause unhealth.

Grave: The strategy text for the Supreme Court seems to be missing still, unless I messed up the files

[1] = http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/10/happiest_countries/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5

 

[Cross Cowboy]

I can agree with a negative impact on environment...I also was thinking that non free market's tend to not like those with it...perhaps a negative to both environment and to other civs, who are jealous perhaps of their wealth.

I also didnt say a "belief in God"...I said religion in general. I wasnt trying to get down to a specific religion, because many religious(which includes those religions that dont have a higher power like God) they tend to be very peaceful and content with their lot in life. You also have the other side, which can become fanatical, yet you cant also fail to mention that many of the most brutal leaders in history have been those that dont have or use religion, Stalin, Mao, and many others...I dont want this to turn into a debate on religion, Im just trying to give Grave some ideas on it...As per my name Im a religious person, if you want to use that term, and simply conveying my ideas.

Oh by the way...love the mod again Grave...good stuff! Though i had one strange bug happen...I discovered vassalage and suddenly all the leaders in the game contacted me!! Was strange to say the least. I suppose its possible that one of my ships happened across them...but since it happened at the same time, I thought it was strange...has this happened to anyone else?

 

[CHE_GUEVARA]

Why don't you add a third trait to each leader. This may give you more flexibility, so you can juggle traits around and get more balanced combos. It is also more fun..

i agree, it could be a third trait a little bit less powerful than the main two, more than a leader trait a civilization trait?
look at Civ++ mod traits they do it pretty well.
keep playing with 1.04 patch... i love new unique buildings and terra 2 map its very interesting!!
good job

 

[Brave Jay]

I can agree with a negative impact on environment...I also was thinking that non free market's tend to not like those with it...perhaps a negative to both environment and to other civs, who are jealous perhaps of their wealth.

I also didnt say a "belief in God"...I said religion in general. I wasnt trying to get down to a specific religion, because many religious(which includes those religions that dont have a higher power like God) they tend to be very peaceful and content with their lot in life. You also have the other side, which can become fanatical, yet you cant also fail to mention that many of the most brutal leaders in history have been those that dont have or use religion, Stalin, Mao, and many others...I dont want this to turn into a debate on religion, Im just trying to give Grave some ideas on it...As per my name Im a religious person, if you want to use that term, and simply conveying my ideas.

Oh by the way...love the mod again Grave...good stuff! Though i had one strange bug happen...I discovered vassalage and suddenly all the leaders in the game contacted me!! Was strange to say the least. I suppose its possible that one of my ships happened across them...but since it happened at the same time, I thought it was strange...has this happened to anyone else?

If you re-read my post, I didn't say God with a big "G", I said in a god, little "g". I'm not trying to argue religion whatsoever, I'm talking about historical accuracy without throwing gameplay balance out the window. I don't believe that religions are always at the root of anarchy, just that they can be and have been. I'm not debating religion here, just giving my thoughts on why i agree with grave on the no-anarchy for charismatic trait vs. spiritual. Oh, and I'm a Christian who strongly believes in God and respect others rights to believe what they believe

 

[xbeanerx]

I got No buttons so i can Not make a city with my settler?Help!!!

 

[genine]

Hi grave
first and foremost you do a very nice job making this mod!I realy enjoy it! some slight remarks tough
1) on oddesey speed I often get to a point where I can only build units in the long run, can you include something like a "idle" option like there's in other mods, or include more early buildings like a herbalist or a well, or even better some building that gives early happyness since that's hard to come by
2)I very much like the graphic modcomp formations of the navy seal I think it would make a nice addition. ofcourse it's you mod so feel no obligation it's just an idea.
keep up the very good work!

 

[zoidberg76]

A recent study of self-perceived happiness in world population [1] saw capitalist democracies quite up on the list (denmark, austria, switzerland, iceland), so I would say that capitalism does not necessarily imply unhappiness. However the existence of strong social services seems to be key in improving happiness level.

I brought this up already but IMHO the real drawback of free market is less care for the environment. I think it would make sense to make Free Market cause unhealth.

Grave: The strategy text for the Supreme Court seems to be missing still, unless I messed up the files

[1] = http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/10/happiest_countries/index_01.htm?chan=rss_topSlideShows_ssi_5

Yeah, I think environment impact is a reasonable negative effect for Free Market, it could make it more reasonable to switch to environmentalism.
I my games, I am able to counter pollution in free markets with hospitals and so on (or just a lot of food from the sushi corp.), so I don´t feel the urge to switch to environmentalism (and the +25% maint for corp. vs. -25 with free market makes it even harder).

Maybe free market should give negative impact on the environment and causes unhappyness with other civilizations (they are jealous), while environmentalism could reduce production (e.g. -10%, you cannot run the forges like hell, if you want to keep the air clean) and the +25% for corp. could be reduced or cancelled at all.

Maybe I´ll edit the XML-files myself, so I can run a test on it....

Zoid!

 

[xbeanerx]

"God"Damm It i need help asswipes!!!!

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Yeah, I think environment impact is a reasonable negative effect for Free Market, it could make it more reasonable to switch to environmentalism.
I my games, I am able to counter pollution in free markets with hospitals and so on (or just a lot of food from the sushi corp.), so I don´t feel the urge to switch to environmentalism (and the +25% maint for corp. vs. -25 with free market makes it even harder).

Maybe free market should give negative impact on the environment and causes unhappyness with other civilizations (they are jealous), while environmentalism could reduce production (e.g. -10%, you cannot run the forges like hell, if you want to keep the air clean) and the +25% for corp. could be reduced or cancelled at all.

Maybe I´ll edit the XML-files myself, so I can run a test on it....

Zoid!

This bit coincided with my idea. I was thinking of large changes in relation to other Economy Civics...Hows about

State Property : -4 relations (We hate your greedy capitalist ideals)
Env: -2 (Your people are killing our planet)
Merc: -2 (You propogate lies and slander through your foreign trade)
Free Market (other civ): +2 (We approve of your enlightened trade status)

To my mind, you would absolutely not need any other penalties besides these for Free Market...It would also almost immediately start "cold wars" with the communistic nations. It would come at a time when religion has ceased to become such a "pact creator/divider", and would bring a whole new "pact creator/divider" aspect to the late game......

Heck, I actually really like this idea the more I think about it....

Comments and thoughts guys?

 

[zoidberg76]

Hi Grave and all!

I modified the Civics like I said and even a bit more.

You find a sheet as jpg and the xml-file as zip attached.

Changes are:
Slavery: Workers +25% (was 50), slavery seemed to powerful to me
Caste System: -25% GP birth Rate (was -50)
Serfdom: only 1 unhealth per city (was 3); serfdom at all doesn´t look attractive to me
Mercantilism: only 1 gold (was 2) per mine (they are common, so this seemed to much for me)
Free market: civ´s that don´t possess get unhappy, if someone other has free market (we ALL want to buy EVERYTHING); in addition, it gives 2 unhealth, but no production malus.
Environmentalism: reduces production by 10%, but corporations have no negative effect on city maintenance; Having Env does now NOT make the others unhappy
Organized religion: only 25% (was 33%) bonus on buildings construction in cities with state religion. But -20% MILITARY units production in ALL cities.
Pacifism: in addition also has -10% military unit production (in addition to the +100% War Weariness) - thougth, that building up an army should be more expensive under a pacifist government.

Tell me, what you all think of it.

Zoid

 

[Brave Jay]

DrewBledsoe: Sounds pretty cool. Do the ai's always go to their favorite economic civic, or do they weigh them up and pick the best one?

 

[Brave Jay]

Hi Grave and all!

I modified the Civics like I said and even a bit more.

You find a sheet as jpg and the xml-file as zip attached.

Changes are:
Slavery: Workers +25% (was 50), slavery seemed to powerful to me
Caste System: -25% GP birth Rate (was -50)
Serfdom: only 1 unhealth per city (was 3); serfdom at all doesn´t look attractive to me
Mercantilism: only 1 gold (was 2) per mine (they are common, so this seemed to much for me)
Free market: civ´s that don´t possess get unhappy, if someone other has free market (we ALL want to buy EVERYTHING); in addition, it gives 2 unhealth, but no production malus.
Environmentalism: reduces production by 10%, but corporations have no negative effect on city maintenance; Having Env does now NOT make the others unhappy
Organized religion: only 25% (was 33%) bonus on buildings construction in cities with state religion. But -20% MILITARY units production in ALL cities.
Pacifism: in addition also has -10% military unit production (in addition to the +100% War Weariness) - thougth, that building up an army should be more expensive under a pacifist government.

Tell me, what you all think of it.

Zoid

Good ideas for the most part. The only thing I wouldn't be sure about is the unhappiness for others with free market. I mean, I wonder if it could be easily exploited if you used all of the civics which gave unhappiness to others in a game. I noticed that each civic category has one civic choice that has a "unhappiness to others" in the Pro column.

 

[zoidberg76]

Good ideas for the most part. The only thing I wouldn't be sure about is the unhappiness for others with free market. I mean, I wonder if it could be easily exploited if you used all of the civics which gave unhappiness to others in a game. I noticed that each civic category has one civic choice that has a "unhappiness to others" in the Pro column.

Yep, but it was the same before. All the "modern" civics in the last line (UnivSuff, FreeSp,Emanc,FreeRel and in the Vanilla-HitM Environmentalism) gave unhappyness to the other civs. it was common for me to combine them.

I just moved the unhappyness in the economic section from env to freem, because other people rather envy you for having loads of goods (due to free market) than for better environment.
I think more Indian people would like to have central European wealth and goods than alpine fresh water, clean air and green forests.

But that is just an idea of me...

Zoid

 

[Canabrava]

I'm playing 1.04 and i have somethings to say:

- I liked Temple building

- Science and culture 5% per chance

- I liked 2 unic building

- Siege units missing shots, it's very cool

But i think CANON is overpowered. I don't liked them. It's to strong. With you build 10, you won. I think there is a problem. Or the canon it's too early or need o unit to kill this. Canon it's to close to armsman, maceman, pikeman and knight, and all this units have strong dificulty to kill a canon. It's so hard, i try kill with knights with 2 promotions, but i lost more knights than kill enemy canon. The funniest part is a bombard enemy canon and my knights still losing.

I think need some balance, like some knights promotions +25% Knighs Vs Canon, or put canon more late.


- A sugestion is Inquisitor unit, to ban religions from you cities.