It actually makes a lot of sense. The Phalanx was reinvented in the form of Pikes in formation in order to protect the Arquebusier/Musket lines. The Spanish perfected this in the "Spanish Square" with Tercio Pikemen - among other famous pike units from the age of gunpowder you will probably recognise Swiss Pikemen or the Landsknecht.
[Beyond the Sword] History In The Making
- Thread starter Grave
- Start date
It actually makes a lot of sense. The Phalanx was reinvented in the form of Pikes in formation in order to protect the Arquebusier/Musket lines. The Spanish perfected this in the "Spanish Square" with Tercio Pikemen - among other famous pike units from the age of gunpowder you will probably recognise Swiss Pikemen or the Landsknecht.
sugar - I forgot to include my suggestion for changes to all siege/artillery units. The purpose of siege and artillery units IMHO, is to reduce defenses and cause collateral damage - they shouldn't have much strenght as an individual unit. As a result I have seriously nerfed all siege and artillery units by reducing the max. damage they can cause from figures in the range of 80-90% to 30-40%. I have also reduced the amount of collateral damage they cause to max. 30% for early units as well as how many units they can damage.
The result of these changes are that the AI is not so attracted to siege/artillery and that it takes longer to siege/capture a city, with the main work horse being infantry/melee and not a secondary unit like artillery.
As an example, I've included the stats for Cannon below:
<iCombat>12</iCombat>
<iCombatLimit>40</iCombatLimit>
<iAirCombat>0</iAirCombat>
<iAirCombatLimit>0</iAirCombatLimit>
<iXPValueAttack>4</iXPValueAttack>
<iXPValueDefense>2</iXPValueDefense>
<iFirstStrikes>0</iFirstStrikes>
<iChanceFirstStrikes>0</iChanceFirstStrikes>
<iInterceptionProbability>0</iInterceptionProbability>
<iEvasionProbability>0</iEvasionProbability>
<iWithdrawalProb>0</iWithdrawalProb>
<iCollateralDamage>100</iCollateralDamage>
<iCollateralDamageLimit>30</iCollateralDamageLimit>
<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>4</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>
The result of these changes are that the AI is not so attracted to siege/artillery and that it takes longer to siege/capture a city, with the main work horse being infantry/melee and not a secondary unit like artillery.
As an example, I've included the stats for Cannon below:
<iCombat>12</iCombat>
<iCombatLimit>40</iCombatLimit>
<iAirCombat>0</iAirCombat>
<iAirCombatLimit>0</iAirCombatLimit>
<iXPValueAttack>4</iXPValueAttack>
<iXPValueDefense>2</iXPValueDefense>
<iFirstStrikes>0</iFirstStrikes>
<iChanceFirstStrikes>0</iChanceFirstStrikes>
<iInterceptionProbability>0</iInterceptionProbability>
<iEvasionProbability>0</iEvasionProbability>
<iWithdrawalProb>0</iWithdrawalProb>
<iCollateralDamage>100</iCollateralDamage>
<iCollateralDamageLimit>30</iCollateralDamageLimit>
<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>4</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>
HiRezAudio
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2007
- Messages
- 577
Only just managed to find the time to start a game of this Mod.
So far, I am finding it has some very nice touches indeed - particularly the necessity of getting certain techs to reveal commodities such as Cotton, Tobacco, etc - and the addition of techs to reveal other resources that are instantly visible in the Vanilla game.
This is much more realistic, due to what would be the ignorance of these plants & resources right off.
Cool.
One thing that has bugged me though, is the way the information files are not fully accurate. I blame myself, but I wasted early time doing my usual approach - go for Buddhism ASAP - to find out it now comes in much later - yet in the info, the references to "Meditation" granting Buddhism to the first discoverer is still there.
Ditto Pottery for Cottages, even though this is also not right any more.
This is a nit-pick though, but a look at this would make an excellent Mod even better IMHO.
I've only just entered the Iron Age (that was one elusive resource!!) and am waiting to see if the Via Appia wonder will update to include newly built roads once I reload.
Congratulations to the creator(s) - this is a fine piece of work.
Very enjoyable indeed.
So far, I am finding it has some very nice touches indeed - particularly the necessity of getting certain techs to reveal commodities such as Cotton, Tobacco, etc - and the addition of techs to reveal other resources that are instantly visible in the Vanilla game.
This is much more realistic, due to what would be the ignorance of these plants & resources right off.
Cool.
One thing that has bugged me though, is the way the information files are not fully accurate. I blame myself, but I wasted early time doing my usual approach - go for Buddhism ASAP - to find out it now comes in much later - yet in the info, the references to "Meditation" granting Buddhism to the first discoverer is still there.
Ditto Pottery for Cottages, even though this is also not right any more.
This is a nit-pick though, but a look at this would make an excellent Mod even better IMHO.
I've only just entered the Iron Age (that was one elusive resource!!) and am waiting to see if the Via Appia wonder will update to include newly built roads once I reload.
Congratulations to the creator(s) - this is a fine piece of work.
Very enjoyable indeed.
DrewBledsoe
Veteran QB
When you build The Via Appia, you get a "constructor" worker unit. His sole function is to build more Roman Roads. Other workers just build new "normal roads".
Uncle Anton
Lighthorseman
Hi KPII...
Interesting opinions... Glad you're enjoying the mod
I'm sure if Grave was here, he'd encourage you to make your own changes to customise HiTM to your specific liking... but he'd also point out HiTM is Civ "As he likes it", so your proposed changes may or may not get done - it's really up to him I would think
My dissenting two cents...
Grenadiers not before Rifling? I'm not sure I'd agree with you there. Yes, they're in there in the game as a counter to Riflemen, we all accept as much. But in real life, can you imagine a battalion of Grenadiers from before and in the day of Napoleon trying to go toe to toe with a unit which the Rifleman represents in the game (eg, let's say the 7th New York circa 1861) fitted out with the best equipment available and drilled pretty well by standards of the day?
Slaughter and Laughter. It's amazing what difference an extra consonent makes.
As for Artillery... I'm not sure as to your own real life experiences, but I a) know that Dale (who pioneered development of ranged bombardment for Civ 4) used to be an Artilleryman himself in a "previous life" and I trust his opinion on just what arty can do and b) I from my own military experience I know that there's really only one thing to know about artillery... and that is, when it starts up, be somewhere else. I think the code reflects that pretty well as is...
Bottom line, bombardments are very capable of wiping out whole units if those units are not deployed correctly, and the bombarding ordnance is deployed correctly. There are many historical precedents of this. If you want the change the ranged bombardment to whatever you want for your games, go for it. It's your game mate, you do whatever makes you happy
But again, I'm sorry to say I'll have to agree to disagree with you - artillery can pants other units in the field, and I hope Grave leaves the DCM/DRB code just as it is.
Interesting opinions... Glad you're enjoying the mod
I'm sure if Grave was here, he'd encourage you to make your own changes to customise HiTM to your specific liking... but he'd also point out HiTM is Civ "As he likes it", so your proposed changes may or may not get done - it's really up to him I would think
My dissenting two cents...
Grenadiers not before Rifling? I'm not sure I'd agree with you there. Yes, they're in there in the game as a counter to Riflemen, we all accept as much. But in real life, can you imagine a battalion of Grenadiers from before and in the day of Napoleon trying to go toe to toe with a unit which the Rifleman represents in the game (eg, let's say the 7th New York circa 1861) fitted out with the best equipment available and drilled pretty well by standards of the day?
Slaughter and Laughter. It's amazing what difference an extra consonent makes.
As for Artillery... I'm not sure as to your own real life experiences, but I a) know that Dale (who pioneered development of ranged bombardment for Civ 4) used to be an Artilleryman himself in a "previous life" and I trust his opinion on just what arty can do and b) I from my own military experience I know that there's really only one thing to know about artillery... and that is, when it starts up, be somewhere else. I think the code reflects that pretty well as is...
Bottom line, bombardments are very capable of wiping out whole units if those units are not deployed correctly, and the bombarding ordnance is deployed correctly. There are many historical precedents of this. If you want the change the ranged bombardment to whatever you want for your games, go for it.
It's your game mate, you do whatever makes you happy But again, I'm sorry to say I'll have to agree to disagree with you - artillery can pants other units in the field, and I hope Grave leaves the DCM/DRB code just as it is.
Greybriar
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2006
- Messages
- 418
I'm glad it worked for you.
Unfortunately it didn't help me--the game still crashes when my settler tries to found my first city.
My apologies - I could have been more clear in my post. The primary purpose of these changes are to encourage the AI to create balanced stacks, since I'm fed up with these stacks of 15 Cuirassers and 8 Cannons. Ideally I would like to make it as historically correct as possible, but I'm not anal about it. The reason I don't like Grenadiers before Riflemen are for gameplay not historical reasons - since the Grenadiers come before Riflemen it means that the AI will upgrade everyone and his uncle to Grenadiers when possible and since it's not possible to upgrade Grenadiers to Riflemen the AI ends up with stacks packed to the brim with Grenadiers.
Bottom line, bombardments are very capable of wiping out whole units if those units are not deployed correctly, and the bombarding ordnance is deployed correctly. There are many historical precedents of this. If you want the change the ranged bombardment to whatever you want for your games, go for it.
Agreed, modern artillery is very effective, but in the early days it was nothing more than a slight nuissance. There are very few examples in history where artillery has been the determining factor in the outcome of a battle. Sure entire units have been wiped out by ART ("The Lost Battalion" in WWI for example), but they have never won the battle. Battles were - and still are - won by having boots on the ground.
If you haven't guessed it by now - my background is in Infantry, so there is no such thing as a foxhole that's deep enough
On Artillery: Ultima ratio regum. (The final argument of kings)
- Inscription on french cannons, on order of Louis XIV
Artillery conquers and infantry occupies.
J.F.C. Fuller
"The Guns, Thank God, The Guns. . .
- Rudyard Kipling
A battery of field artillery is worth a thousand muskets.
- General William Tecumseh Sherman
- Inscription on french cannons, on order of Louis XIV
Artillery conquers and infantry occupies.
J.F.C. Fuller
"The Guns, Thank God, The Guns. . .
- Rudyard Kipling
A battery of field artillery is worth a thousand muskets.
- General William Tecumseh Sherman
Kalimakhus
Emperor
- Joined
- May 8, 2007
- Messages
- 1,249
Artillery issue was debated over and over again in several threads on these forums. I've got nothing new to say about them. I just think KPII's changes are game play oriented and not really meant for historical accuracy. As such I think I like much of these suggestions. I'd love it if the AI can pose some real challenge from time to time. Allowing the AI to build better stacks can be quite fun to try.
@KPII
Do you care for posting your modified files so if others are interested (as I am) in trying the effect of these changes they would have a chance to do so?
@KPII
Do you care for posting your modified files so if others are interested (as I am) in trying the effect of these changes they would have a chance to do so?
Good quotes. I'm not saying that artillery is not useful - i'm just of the opinion that it has never (or very seldom) been the determining factor in the outcome of a battle. I'm a former platoon commander, so believe you me, I'll not move an inch without having indirect fire support on call.
"in 1806 at Jena, the French 111th Line Infantry captured a Prussian battery despite 6 volleys of canister. In 1813 at Bautzen the Wirtembergian infantry brigade closed to within 200 paces of the Prussian artillery, braving its intense fire, and with a great yell lunged forward to put the gunners to the bayonet." (Nafziger - "Lutzen and Bautzen" p 239)
on the other hand:
"Artillery lends dignity to
what might otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
- Frederick the Great
-------------------------------------------------
@Kalimakhus
I'm currently working on a clean version of the files so I can register every change. Once I have the modern age completed, I'll make the files available. I'll probably open another thread for this, since I don't want to steal Graves thread.
"right 200, drop 150, fire for effect ...cheers...over"
Uncle Anton
Lighthorseman
@ KPII: Ahhh ok... well when you put it that way.... stack balance has traditionally been a pretty tricky thing - Those stacks kinda annoy me too, although I play at levels low enough that I've usually got fighters by the time the AI has cannons and cuirassiers Glad to see someone's putting some thought into it tho
Well, I was what my contempories over here call a 'Buckethead'. Used to drive an M113AS1 (It's an Aussie M113... the variant I drove had an enclosed copula with browning .50 and a .30 - a nice fat target) so that pretty much means I get to be scared of practically everyone - it's not paranoia if everything on the battlefield really can bushwhack you and steal your pants.
Glad to see someone's putting some thought into it tho Well, I was what my contempories over here call a 'Buckethead'. Used to drive an M113AS1 (It's an Aussie M113... the variant I drove had an enclosed copula with browning .50 and a .30 - a nice fat target) so that pretty much means I get to be scared of practically everyone - it's not paranoia if everything on the battlefield really can bushwhack you and steal your pants.
Hi
I have a question. I played few times on Monarch. AI was really challagenging it was producing many units.
Now I started new game on Monarch. I took agressive AI and I noticed that AI do not produce much units. Am the most powerful nation on the globe (8 civs).
How come n one game AI tries to be powerful and in the other game it is to easy?
I have a question. I played few times on Monarch. AI was really challagenging it was producing many units.
Now I started new game on Monarch. I took agressive AI and I noticed that AI do not produce much units. Am the most powerful nation on the globe (8 civs).
How come n one game AI tries to be powerful and in the other game it is to easy?
Hi Grave
Might I suggest a few changes that I have made to HiTM.
I find that the increased number of ressources means that it is too easy to have only happy cities. This is especially the case after the extended city radius mod comp was removes I guess (fewer squares to harvest->smaller cities but still the same amount of ressources). It's propably the same with health but I haven't got around to look at that yet.
Haven't got access to the files right now, but basicly what I did was I removed the normal happiness bonus you get from harvesting Silk, Cotton and Dye plus the additional effects from having markets. I increased the gold output from them slightly so that they would not be nerfed too much. I also created a new building, wonder and ressource (see below):
Textile market summary:
Grand Textiles Bazaar:
If you're interested in adopting them I have it all as modular files. Art is taken from other buildings and text is not that imaginative though.
\Skodkim
PS: Open for suggestions!
Might I suggest a few changes that I have made to HiTM.
I find that the increased number of ressources means that it is too easy to have only happy cities. This is especially the case after the extended city radius mod comp was removes I guess (fewer squares to harvest->smaller cities but still the same amount of ressources). It's propably the same with health but I haven't got around to look at that yet.
Haven't got access to the files right now, but basicly what I did was I removed the normal happiness bonus you get from harvesting Silk, Cotton and Dye plus the additional effects from having markets. I increased the gold output from them slightly so that they would not be nerfed too much. I also created a new building, wonder and ressource (see below):
Textile market summary:
- Available with Construction
- Gives 1 happiness with Dye, Cotton and Silk
- Each of the above mentioned ressources gives 10% Gold output
- Required to build the Grand Textiles Bazaar wonder
Grand Textiles Bazaar:
- National Wonder
- Available with Aestetics
- Gives 3 new bonuses (Luxurious Textiles)
- Requires Dye, Cotton and Silk
- Requires four Textile Markets
If you're interested in adopting them I have it all as modular files. Art is taken from other buildings and text is not that imaginative though.
\Skodkim
PS: Open for suggestions!
mnlg
Chieftain
skodkim: it is a great suggestion, however many pages ago I suggested a textile corporation, in case a new religion gets added, and I think it would collide with your scheme...
I suggested a textile corporation, in case a new religion gets added, and I think it would collide with your scheme...
xbeanerx
Warlord
I Know what Mod is better than this One!
the TR Mod Greatest Mod Ever made thank you "Jesus" and the TR team!!!
the TR Mod Greatest Mod Ever made thank you "Jesus" and the TR team!!!
Always nice to hear the oppinion of others. I also know what football team I prefer but since this thread isn't about that either I'm not going to comment on it here!
\Skodkim
NOT TRUE!
In TR Mod there is no Dales Combat Mod 1.3. And EVERY mod without this - sucks!
