Bible talk

aight makes sense. im gonna flip on this and look at it from the other side. bj, let's say private worship is unliked but allowed by the government, isn't restricting the practice's right to public gathering a violation in the sense that it's still persecution? or am i missing something?

I get the impression Chinese government doesn't care that much one way or the other. It's a very small issue to break spears about. Chinese have had their moment of liberation. Atheistic government instilled in multiple generations, through education system, materialistic, scientific views of the surrounding reality. Today 73% of Chinese are atheists/non-religious. They've won, those at the top, who set off to achieve their goals. The political, economical, education system currently in place makes sure this number only works upwards in days to come.

Given this, do they want to go out and persecute some remaining Christians to make martyrs out of them and risk some sort of reaction? Well, some militant atheists might. But overall, no, they work at education level, books and movies, at state propaganda level through news outlets. They work at social credit level, in short they are playing a much more sophisticated game than that of hunting down remaining christians and putting them behind bars.. they are cynically educating their young along the socialist trajectory, and youngsters, as a result, lose interest in religion.

So there is little need to squeeze religious movements too hard when they confine themselves to a sufficiently local expression. Go out, wear your cross, no problemo. Pray at home, maybe at work, depending on the work place. Talk about god with friends. Start preaching online and you've crossed the invisible boundary - you're getting pushed out from the core outwards by cumulative force of the system. So yes, this can be seen as religious persecution enabled by secular majority through governing institutions. Or it can be seen as liberation of the mind held captive in custody, for centuries, by religious forces.

Depends who you ask.

I have never been to China, yet I had the pleasure of theological discussion with some of my atheist Chinese friends.
 
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aight makes sense. im gonna flip on this and look at it from the other side. bj, let's say private worship is unliked but allowed by the government, isn't restricting the practice's right to public gathering a violation in the sense that it's still persecution? or am i missing something?
China restricts all kinds of public gatherings already. It is very difficult to curtail the private actions 30 -100 million people. The "persecution" of Christians is mostly organizational unless a person has a high profile or if a church is publicly defying the CCP. Visiting friends on Sundays is not crime and difficult to monitor even in China. The scale of everything is China is so much bigger than the US or Europe, it can be difficult to put things in perspective.


"Christianity in China is governed by several sets of rules. Christians are allowed to worship in “official churches” registered with supervisory government agencies responsible for Protestantism and Catholicism. However, many Christians refuse this oversight and worship in underground churches.

Since Xi came to power in 2013, the government has banned evangelization online, tightened control over Christian activities outside of registered venues, and shut down churches that refuse to register. Authorities have also arrested prominent church leaders and some Christians reportedly have been held in internment camps.

In 2018, the Vatican and China signed an agreement over bishop appointments to help alleviate tensions for China’s Catholics – a deal that was criticized by many. Since then, the Chinese government has stepped up efforts to bring Catholic churches into the official system and intensified its pressure on those that refuse to join."

Christians have not been singled out. Other organized religions also get government "attention".

 
so as i understand it;

- china's so atheist at this point that there's not much point as to pushing the issue
- internet prolezytation is a huge no go (which reflects most of china's policies irt state-unwanted internet activity)
- private worship is fine
- they have state sanctioned public churches for protestants and catholics
- commonly, practicing christians don't want to practice in the public state sanctioned and instead do so in ""public"" non-sanctioned churches
- the latter doesn't (legally) use the internet and are more of physical congregations

did i get it right? is this the situation, leaving aside definitions of persecution?
 
I wonder if China is so determined to control Christianity tightly because of the Taiping rebellion (which Angst alluded to in an earlier post I believe). I'm embarrassed to admit I know little about other then you normally see it in the top 5 bloodiest conflicts in history, and that Christianity was at least part of the reason for the rebellion (the rebels in this case were the "Christians" in contrast to the Boxer rebellion where they were at least partly rebelling against Christianity I believe). Add to this the fact that Christianity* may be growing rapidly in China "According to scholar Philip Jenkins Christianity is growing rapidly in China and some other Asian countries and sub-Saharan Africa," and they may be determined to not let things get out of hand again!

*"In recent years, the number of Chinese Christians has increased significantly; Christians were 4 million before 1949 (3 million Catholics and 1 million Protestants), and are reaching 67 million today.[48][49] Christianity is reportedly the fastest growing religion in China with an average annual rate of 7% as of 2015."


Though whether this growth of Christianity in China is true or not is hard to say. I have seen sources say significant growth and others say no growth whatsoever. The number of underground churches is predictably hard to calculate. Though as a percentage Christianity is still pretty small, might be lower then 2% or as high as 6%.

My pastor mentioned in a sermon how an underground church in China was raided and the leaders have to either renounce their faith or pay massive fines (they all chose the latter). His point was how easy us Christians in the USA have it compared to other parts of the world ( or the past). And no, I don't have a source for this story!
 
so as i understand it;

- china's so atheist at this point that there's not much point as to pushing the issue
- internet prolezytation is a huge no go (which reflects most of china's policies irt state-unwanted internet activity)
- private worship is fine
- they have state sanctioned public churches for protestants and catholics
- commonly, practicing christians don't want to practice in the public state sanctioned and instead do so in ""public"" non-sanctioned churches
- the latter doesn't (legally) use the internet and are more of physical congregations

did i get it right? is this the situation, leaving aside definitions of persecution?
Pretty much on target except that I think that many attend private in home gatherings for worship in small groups avoiding the need to attend any actual church. I think that non sanctioned churches are seen as trouble by the CCP.
I wonder if China is so determined to control Christianity tightly because of the Taiping rebellion (which Angst alluded to in an earlier post I believe). I'm embarrassed to admit I know little about other then you normally see it in the top 5 bloodiest conflicts in history, and that Christianity was at least part of the reason for the rebellion (the rebels in this case were the "Christians" in contrast to the Boxer rebellion where they were at least partly rebelling against Christianity I believe). Add to this the fact that Christianity* may be growing rapidly in China "According to scholar Philip Jenkins Christianity is growing rapidly in China and some other Asian countries and sub-Saharan Africa," and they may be determined to not let things get out of hand again!

*"In recent years, the number of Chinese Christians has increased significantly; Christians were 4 million before 1949 (3 million Catholics and 1 million Protestants), and are reaching 67 million today.[48][49] Christianity is reportedly the fastest growing religion in China with an average annual rate of 7% as of 2015."


Though whether this growth of Christianity in China is true or not is hard to say. I have seen sources say significant growth and others say no growth whatsoever. The number of underground churches is predictably hard to calculate. Though as a percentage Christianity is still pretty small, might be lower then 2% or as high as 6%.

My pastor mentioned in a sermon how an underground church in China was raided and the leaders have to either renounce their faith or pay massive fines (they all chose the latter). His point was how easy us Christians in the USA have it compared to other parts of the world ( or the past). And no, I don't have a source for this story!
China is fighting all religions not just Christianity. Check out the link from Pew research in my post above. The CCP is opposed to all religious belief because it competes with communist ideology.
 
this driver fixation is really really weird fwiw.

See your quote below...

the focus on cars is strange and (bluntly) very american.

I guess this is because americans observe this behavior on a daily basis, thus a ready and easy example to cite.

At what point would a list of examples be sufficient enough for someone to conclude that the world is in a bad spot, possibly on the verge of ending? It is obvious that there is always an explanation for any example provided. Thus one could conclude that nothing is wrong and that the world will continue as it has for thousands of years.

That would seem to suggest that those who have been shouting out from the rooftops that the 'end is near' must indeed be foolish. No need to pay attention.

What this all means then is that it is probably safe to continue on not worrying about such things.

Why would someone like myself who is one of those lunatics standing on the roof and shouting say such a thing as this? Surely I should continue to provide examples and continue sending out warnings no?

I realize that no matter how many concrete examples can be provided there will be always be arguments to the contrary.

The answer is simple. If anyone has an ear to hear let them hear. If anyone does not have an ear to hear let them not hear.

I'm not trying to end the conversation because I believe we are in a season that is quite unique. It's just that what is the use of continuing this exercise because I cannot see a conclusion to this endless loop.

I know that the holy spirit is in-dwelt within me and that he provides me with guidance and discernment. I need not see, I just know.

And now watch this. That last sentence above will be immediately dismissed as irrelevant to the logic arguments. Which makes me think perhaps we need a translator because I speak quite a different language than the average person.
 
The scaling of population over time and globalization along with 24/7 media coverage of everything amplifies the sense of greater deterioration of the social fabric. It creates a sense of urgency. When a strong desire to be part of the rapture and end times now, it leads to an "It is coming soon" mentality. For the Truth we will have to wait. As I see it, the 2000 years of missed guesses will continue.
 
I know that the holy spirit is in-dwelt within me and that he provides me with guidance and discernment. I need not see, I just know.
This experience is pretty universal among humans, religious or not. Some more than others.

How you relate to it is personal to your history, many people ascribe it to whatever official religion they were raised to be a part of. Most of those who ascribe it specifically to their own religion regard it as personal evidence that their particular religion is therefore true and that the others' aren't. Many go so far as to imagine that the others aren't actually experiencing that phenomenon, since it feels so "clearly" and "truly" evidence of their own dogma that the others must simply be mistaking different experiences for being of the same manner. I can't speak for you of course.
 
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China is fighting all religions not just Christianity. Check out the link from Pew research in my post above. The CCP is opposed to all religious belief because it competes with communist ideology.

Though to be clear China can be repressive against all religions (I think we are all aware of the treatment of the Uyghurs). Also even if you aren't religious, you may well face repression if you don't tow the party line.
 
I wonder if China is so determined to control Christianity tightly because of the Taiping rebellion (which Angst alluded to in an earlier post I believe). I'm embarrassed to admit I know little about other then you normally see it in the top 5 bloodiest conflicts in history, and that Christianity was at least part of the reason for the rebellion (the rebels in this case were the "Christians" in contrast to the Boxer rebellion where they were at least partly rebelling against Christianity I believe). Add to this the fact that Christianity* may be growing rapidly in China "According to scholar Philip Jenkins Christianity is growing rapidly in China and some other Asian countries and sub-Saharan Africa," and they may be determined to not let things get out of hand again!

*"In recent years, the number of Chinese Christians has increased significantly; Christians were 4 million before 1949 (3 million Catholics and 1 million Protestants), and are reaching 67 million today.[48][49] Christianity is reportedly the fastest growing religion in China with an average annual rate of 7% as of 2015."


Though whether this growth of Christianity in China is true or not is hard to say. I have seen sources say significant growth and others say no growth whatsoever. The number of underground churches is predictably hard to calculate. Though as a percentage Christianity is still pretty small, might be lower then 2% or as high as 6%.

My pastor mentioned in a sermon how an underground church in China was raided and the leaders have to either renounce their faith or pay massive fines (they all chose the latter). His point was how easy us Christians in the USA have it compared to other parts of the world ( or the past). And no, I don't have a source for this story!
just a note on taiping; i was actually talking in general. taiping is one thing, but even before that, from what i remember, ming stamped out literally any nonconfucian faith for a period, including christians, sometimes very bloodily. but i may misremember.
See your quote below...



I guess this is because americans observe this behavior on a daily basis, thus a ready and easy example to cite.
neither the density of people nor the loudness of modern machinery in itself makes more recent people more impulsive. it means that there are more of them and their actions are louder.
At what point would a list of examples be sufficient enough for someone to conclude that the world is in a bad spot, possibly on the verge of ending? It is obvious that there is always an explanation for any example provided. Thus one could conclude that nothing is wrong and that the world will continue as it has for thousands of years.

That would seem to suggest that those who have been shouting out from the rooftops that the 'end is near' must indeed be foolish. No need to pay attention.

What this all means then is that it is probably safe to continue on not worrying about such things.

Why would someone like myself who is one of those lunatics standing on the roof and shouting say such a thing as this? Surely I should continue to provide examples and continue sending out warnings no?

I realize that no matter how many concrete examples can be provided there will be always be arguments to the contrary.

The answer is simple. If anyone has an ear to hear let them hear. If anyone does not have an ear to hear let them not hear.

I'm not trying to end the conversation because I believe we are in a season that is quite unique. It's just that what is the use of continuing this exercise because I cannot see a conclusion to this endless loop.

I know that the holy spirit is in-dwelt within me and that he provides me with guidance and discernment. I need not see, I just know.

And now watch this. That last sentence above will be immediately dismissed as irrelevant to the logic arguments. Which makes me think perhaps we need a translator because I speak quite a different language than the average person.
look, i'm all for poetic interpretation of the world, and this is also an admission that you are looking for the signs of proof in the world because you're looking for them. parsing that like you're willing to see does not change that. it's the same thing. you want and will see. but that's all fine. the issue is that it clashes with the supposed literalism of scripture and the ending of the world in a sense. if you want the bible to mean the end of the world, you have to jump through a bunch of hoops, include a history of (american) reinterpretations of the text since the 1800s as your background for why it makes sense, and then apply it to the world. i'm not framing this logically per se, i'm trying to outline an approach to the world.

the issue with apocalyptic christianity is twofold. first, what the sins actually concretely entail, and what it may compel the individual christian to do (like oh no gays are back, let's remove them). second, the sheer ahistoricity of it. like i don't even know where to start. the idea that the world now is any more broken than at the start of the 20th century and the actual, world-widespread support of the destruction of jewish people (people mostly abandoned antisemitism after they were shocked at the actual degrees of the holocaust and by the cartoonish evil of The Big Enemy, the nazis, being your destructive war target; that can kind of change your disposition. before the nazis "rocked the boat" as to what happened, anti-semitism was actually a normal position in the west), and indeed the suffering imposed on the world was global, both under colonialism and even some suppressed peoples of the world; you should be well aware of the insanity and suffering japan imposed upon most of east asia. with such a huge, actual crisis so severe in insanity and collapse it's still echoed in language a hundred years later, i find it damning in ahistoricity when one would get miffed over, well, say road rage and tiktok, as signs of the end times. i think it's falling incredibly to recency bias, placing oneself as a special part of history (something that's both common and true to do, bluntly) and not actually appreciating the greater picture as much as one would like with such a soft-poetic perspective on the world.

and that's even taking away from other abuses in the times following up to that. like ww1 hit poets so hard they started literally doing actual nonsense nonsense for a generation. there's the abuses of 1800s imperialism. if one looks for incremental end times signs, while there was kind of a weird sequel in the communist bloc, everything built until then - and then kind of fizzled.

but regardless of all of this, my purpose wasn't actually to bro-outlogic you as you presented examples. i was going to discuss them, because of course, we're on a forum. but i least want some concrete representation as to why the world is more doomed now than earlier. because the poetic fluff of moral decay just points into the air, and bluntly having a surface idea of what the world was like historically, i seriously need more to go on. because yea otherwise it's there because you need not see, you just know, and that applies literally everywhere, and good for you, but then it's kind of just... not very interesting, bluntly, rather kind of boring. it's like asking if reality is a simulation. doesn't actually do anything in the world.
 
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This experience is pretty universal among humans, religious or not. Some more than others.

How you relate to it is personal to your history, many people ascribe it to whatever official religion they were raised to be a part of. Most of those who ascribe it specifically to their own religion regard it as personal evidence that their particular religion is therefore true and that the others' aren't. Many go so far as to imagine that the others aren't actually experiencing that phenomenon, since it feels so "clearly" and "truly" evidence of their own dogma that the others must simply be mistaking different experiences for being of the same manner. I can't speak for you of course.

"83% of all U.S. adults believe people have a soul or spirit in addition to their physical body." Are you referring to this or something else?

 
"83% of all U.S. adults believe people have a soul or spirit in addition to their physical body." Are you referring to this or something else?

interesting stat and not surprisingly strange. the concept of a soul and a kind of/real belief in it is pretty normal yea.

a christian soul though? less so. i don't believe in souls but have had talks with friends and found it surprising that most had a concept of it, at least they believed there was something of an equivalent of it. none of them were christians though. soul does not mean the same thing, then. it's not a spirit that rises to heaven, but rather an overlaying essence of sort, something that you are that encompasses you moreso than your body.

i believe we're skull soup electro signaling bags of meat. doesn't mean i find life any less meaningful.

that said - and i'll let hygro answer - i'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about souls, but rather the general condition of self-assuredness, implicit bias, stuff like that. there's a few different concepts one could go about it. hygro wasn't concrete as to a term for it; but to me, it was behavioral. (also looking forward to hygro's response.)
 
it means that there are more of them and their actions are louder.

Precisely. More of them and their actions are louder because technology has enabled this to happen.

the idea that the world now is any more broken than at the start of the 20th century

I never said the world was not broken. It has been broken since the beginning. When something is broken it ends up in one of two states; thrown out into the garbage, or repaired and redeemed. Some items, say a cellular phone may last quite a long while before reaching a point where a forced decision must be made. It either must be discarded or extensive repairs must be made.

world-widespread support of the destruction of jewish people

Right. World wide. Where in the past history of humanity have we seen almost all of the 192 some odd nations on this planet collectively call for freedom from the river to the sea?

(people mostly abandoned antisemitism after they were shocked at the actual degrees of the holocaust and by the cartoonish evil of The Big Enemy, the nazis

Exactly. Somehow the world knew antisemitism is bad but yet here we see a resurgence of it according to today's headlines.

i find it damning in ahistoricity when one would get miffed over, well, say road rage and tiktok, as signs of the end times

But if you look at the new tools humans have to use with today's technological wonders that were not around in the past we can see even more loudly what's in their hearts. Never before has it been possible to spread information, actions, etc. quickly to the entire globe.

my purpose wasn't actually to bro-outlogic you as you presented examples. i was going to discuss them, because of course, we're on a forum.

I admit I was hurt a bit by your comments on the "american" fixation on automobiles. After a day or two of thought I realized you were only reacting naturally according to your life experiences in your part of the world. I'm sorry if I mis-interpreted your intent.

It's good to discuss topics on a forum such as CFC. Great care should be taken to stay on topic rather than point out the perceived silliness of one's choice of examples, thoughts, life experiences, etc. That does not help resolve issues but drives a wedge in between them. We all have our biases and personal tastes and distastes. Sometimes it's better to keep those hidden so as not to cloud the main focus of the discussion. Later, once topics have been resolved it might be fine to jokingly point out the oddities of others, of which I am chief in being odd I admit. We can then laugh at our oddities together in a spirit of brotherhood. Celebrate our differences! :)
 
Precisely. More of them and their actions are louder because technology has enabled this to happen.
to be clear, i don't mean more of them proportionally, i mean more of them as absolute numbers of people. we have had population growth. it does not paint the current generation as any more in moral decay.
I never said the world was not broken. It has been broken since the beginning. When something is broken it ends up in one of two states; thrown out into the garbage, or repaired and redeemed. Some items, say a cellular phone may last quite a long while before reaching a point where a forced decision must be made. It either must be discarded or extensive repairs must be made.
i'm sorry moff but this is just like... bunch of air, you know? sure, you can structure the world like that, but it wasn't my point at all. the idea that the world has somehow escalated into the current state of things being the worst ever is thoroughly ahistorical, esp by citing evil by pointing to eg road rage. it's absolutely bizarre :D
Right. World wide. Where in the past history of humanity have we seen almost all of the 192 some odd nations on this planet collectively call for freedom from the river to the sea?
uh, i don't know what you are talking about at all. are you talking about the un call for ceasefire? framing that as the destruction of israel is so thoroughly warped. israel is still very much supported. whose weapons do they think they're using here?
Exactly. Somehow the world knew antisemitism is bad but yet here we see a resurgence of it according to today's headlines.
it's still far down since before ww2. the nazis were just an extreme version of what most of the west believed about jews. i'm also wary about rising antisemitism, mind you. but thinking antisemitism is a sign of the end times, or thinking killing of jews is the sign of the end times, i'd point you to the years after the rise of christianity until ~1940.
But if you look at the new tools humans have to use with today's technological wonders that were not around in the past we can see even more loudly what's in their hearts. Never before has it been possible to spread information, actions, etc. quickly to the entire globe.
uhm... yea? what does that have to do with evil? i'm not sure whether you're making an argument or whether you're making an observation that i indeed support. the world is more revealed now, for sure. do i think it's more evil? no. still evil? yes.
I admit I was hurt a bit by your comments on the "american" fixation on automobiles. After a day or two of thought I realized you were only reacting naturally according to your life experiences in your part of the world. I'm sorry if I mis-interpreted your intent.

It's good to discuss topics on a forum such as CFC. Great care should be taken to stay on topic rather than point out the perceived silliness of one's choice of examples, thoughts, life experiences, etc. That does not help resolve issues but drives a wedge in between them. We all have our biases and personal tastes and distastes. Sometimes it's better to keep those hidden so as not to cloud the main focus of the discussion. Later, once topics have been resolved it might be fine to jokingly point out the oddities of others, of which I am chief in being odd I admit. We can then laugh at our oddities together in a spirit of brotherhood. Celebrate our differences! :)
i'm not sure how it would hurt you and how it reflects my own biases or whatever your point is here. sorry to hurt you if that was the case.

the point is that "look at all the road ragers" is such a minute weird thing to point at, and yea it's a particularly american thing to say (when you say it in english it is; people drive like crazy in other places too). it was like a local epitome of what apocalyptic christians do a lot - a lot of it is recency bias, and focusing on topical things, destruction caused by technology moreso than spirit, and often being completely blind to the vast explicit efforts of cruelty and jingoist selfishness the world was much moreso entrenched in in the past. cars is an extremely weird thing to bring up when saying that the world is increasing in evil towards its end.

we norse enslaved people en masse. when we converted and stopped, denmark immediately looked for pagans to conquer in the east. when that was no longer possible, we indulged in supremacy over "lessers" and built copenhagen on the blood of slavery. all of that would be satan, y'know. denmark doesn't have much road rage, no, but we do have social media, and i'll take tiktok over that any day, and do not see it as a decay of spirit when looking at the atrocities the world delighted in.
 
A book and documentary released this year which suffice to say is ruffling a few feathers and is naturally controversial.

"How a Bible Error Changed History and Turned Gays Into Pariahs

In a new book and documentary, two researchers claim the original bible never condemned homosexuality.

The words "homosexual" and "heterosexual" were first coined as German nouns by Austrian-born Hungarian psychologist, Karoly Maria Benkert, in the late 19th century, who wrote under pseudonym K.M. Kertbeny.

Ed Oxford is a scholar and researcher. A gay Christian, as well as a graduate of the Talbot School of Theology, his specialty is the history of the Bible, focusing on Bible translations, with a focus on the Greek and Hebrew translations, especially those that relate to human sexuality. Kathy Baldock is an LGBTQ+ advocate and executive director of Canyon Walker Connections, an organization dedicated to repairing "the division that exists between social and Christian conservatives and the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community through education, training, and dialogue in both secular and religious environments."

Each had been dedicated to researching the roots of antigay theology, and together have written Forging a Sacred Weapon: How the Bible Became Anti-Gay, and they are also the researchers behind the documentary, 1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture. In the process of this research, they discovered boxes and boxes of notes in the Yale University archives, among them a half-century old letter written by a young seminarian named David S., to the RSV -- Revised Standard Version of the Bible -- committee.

Now, the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, is, according to the National Council of Churches, the "authorized revision of the American Standard Version, published in 1901, which was a revision of the King James Version, published in 1611."

This is important to know, because the actual word "homosexual" appears for the first time on February 11, 1946 in the Revised Standard Version. In it, their translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9, they substitute the word "homosexual" for the the Greek words "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai."

Further, as Oxford shares with Forge, a nonprofit organization that "that creates space for post-evangelical conversations, which includes tools and resources for lgbtq+ inclusion in the church," "...we went to Leviticus 18:22 and [the translator is] translating it for me word for word. In the English where it says, 'Man shall not lie with man, for it is an abomination,' the German version says, 'Man shall not lie with young boys as he does with a woman, for it is an abomination.' I said, 'What?! Are you sure?' He said, 'Yes!" Then we went to Leviticus 20:13-- same thing, 'Young boys.' So we went to 1 Corinthians to see how they translated arsenokoitai (original Greek word) and instead of homosexuals it said, 'Boy molesters will not inherit the kingdom of God.'"

Further from there, Oxford shares, "I then grabbed my facsimile copy of Martin Luther's original German translation from 1534. My friend is reading through it for me and he says, "Ed, this says the same thing!" They use the word knabenschander. Knaben is boy, schander is molester. This word 'boy molesters' for the most part carried through the next several centuries of German Bible translations. Knabenschander is also in 1 Timothy 1:10. So the interesting thing is, I asked if they ever changed the word arsenokoitai to homosexual in modern translations. So my friend found it and told me, 'The first time homosexual appears in a German translation is 1983.'"

Although the mistake was corrected from "homosexual" to "sexual perverts" in the Revised Standard Version in 1971, the damage had been heavily done, with the word "homosexual" appearing in most translations of the Bible, mostly in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10. This became the fuel for the antigay movement embraced by American conservative Christians, as well as others around the world.

The documentary, 1946, explores and enlightens about this issue, using research and physical evidence, as well as the testimony of scholars, academics, and experts in the field. The movie also features an original score from celebrated queer musician Mary Lambert.

As the director, Sharon "Rocky" Roggio, has said, "It is my goal to change the Christian narrative and liberate the many LGBTQIA+ people living in the dark; oppressed by bad theology. I want us all to live and be acknowledged as equals, under God's love. There are truths that must be shared.""


The Guardian also has a much more recent article about this which is worth reading.

 
The story is a good bit more complicated than that treatment makes it out to be, and, as presented, the scholars' methods are dubious.

That "homosexual" doesn't appear in Bible translations until the forties is a function of the fact (as this treatment rightly notes) that the word "homosexual" was only coined in the late nineteenth century. That coinage was a step in the direction of establishing what we now call "sexual orientation," as an element of one's self, rather than (as these matters had been handled previously) treating same-sex activity as sinful. In other words, until the late nineteenth century, Western culture didn't regard homosexuality as an identity, just regarded sodomy as a (sinful) action.

The reason that Luther's Bible likely would have translated as "boy molester" is that Renaissance scholars knew the form that Greek homosexuality took: and older man taking on a young man as 1) a sex partner and 2) a sort of protege-and-pupil.

What's dubious about the method is that they're working only with translations, instead of going straight to the original languages. I can't speak for Hebrew in the Leviticus passage, but in the Greek, one of the words in question--arsenokoitai--does just mean "someone who lies in bed with a man." The arsen- part has no reference to youth, just gender. Malakoi just means effeminate. (There's probably more to be said about that).

They're misconstruing the evidence to give an impression of something that isn't true: that Christian animus against same-sex sexual activity is 1) recent and 2) just a function of a mistranslation.

You wanted to know why I studied Greek, @Sommerswerd? It is so that I could make my own assessment of the validity of claims like this one.
 
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@Angst

Hmmm...need to start over I think. I am looking for a list that is several items long and has occurrences taking place simultaneously. I think you are trying to break down each individual line item to determine which one is the one that indicates the end. Is this accurate?

Let's go back then to the bible and see what it has to say.

Matthew 24 1 through 14

I'll summarize it in my own words.

[The disciples are having a private conversation with Jesus after finishing a day of public preaching in the temple that ended with Jesus scolding the Pharisees. .The disciples asked; when shall be the sign of your coming and when shall be the end of the world?]

There are two events here and are the subject of much controversy even amongst Christians themselves. There is the second coming of Jesus Christ and there is the end of the world. I believe, and I'm sure there are some here who would disagree with me, that those are two distinct events. Jesus comes back to the earth first and then after an unspecified time period (perhaps a thousand years?) the world ends.

The reason why Jesus returns to the earth is to correct the massive moral decay that you and I are discussing. But that's just part of it. Jesus will also show himself to the world as undeniable proof of his existence. He also comes back to fix the mess that humans have made of this planet.

Back to Matthew

[Jesus answers them that they should be careful that no one deceive you. For there will be a lot of false prophets trying to claim that they are indeed God, Jesus, or some other supreme god. Then he goes on to saying that there shall be:

1. Wars and rumors of wars
2. Nation rising up against nation
3. famines
4. pestilences
5. earthquakes
6. You (speaking to the Jews) will be hated of all the nations for his names' sake
7. because moral decay shall exist is large amounts people will hate one another]

Our discussion is only focusing on item number 7 above but we have to consider all of the other signs listed in items 1 through 6. The end of the world refers to when God burns our current planet to a cinder and rebuilds it into a paradise beyond imagination. See the last two books of Revelation.

The end of the age is what you are I are talking about. Not the end of the world. I used the term end of the world incorrectly but realize that after re-reading the scriptures. The end of the age refers to the end of the age of grace where anyone who wants to can be saved with the free gift of God. When the age of grace ends, and I believe that we are close to that age ending, it will be replaced with 7 years of unimaginable horror. The tribulation period mentioned in the bible. One can still be saved during this horrible tribulation period but it most likely will cost that person their life.
 
"83% of all U.S. adults believe people have a soul or spirit in addition to their physical body." Are you referring to this or something else?

I’m referring to that most people having the experience of being energized by a guiding intention.

Religious people often consider it their personal proof of the supernatural. Atheists might just consider it enthusiasm and motivation, as a singular experience.

Similarly, basically everyone will at times have transcendent experiences. Religious people will generally couple this experience with their indoctrination. But of course it’s universal and does not depend at all on anything ever written in any scripture.

Indeed it’s pretty clear that most religions reinforce themselves by attaching themselves to the most basic of things.
 
@Angst

Hmmm...need to start over I think. I am looking for a list that is several items long and has occurrences taking place simultaneously. I think you are trying to break down each individual line item to determine which one is the one that indicates the end. Is this accurate?

Let's go back then to the bible and see what it has to say.

Matthew 24 1 through 14

I'll summarize it in my own words.

[The disciples are having a private conversation with Jesus after finishing a day of public preaching in the temple that ended with Jesus scolding the Pharisees. .The disciples asked; when shall be the sign of your coming and when shall be the end of the world?]

There are two events here and are the subject of much controversy even amongst Christians themselves. There is the second coming of Jesus Christ and there is the end of the world. I believe, and I'm sure there are some here who would disagree with me, that those are two distinct events. Jesus comes back to the earth first and then after an unspecified time period (perhaps a thousand years?) the world ends.

The reason why Jesus returns to the earth is to correct the massive moral decay that you and I are discussing. But that's just part of it. Jesus will also show himself to the world as undeniable proof of his existence. He also comes back to fix the mess that humans have made of this planet.

Back to Matthew

[Jesus answers them that they should be careful that no one deceive you. For there will be a lot of false prophets trying to claim that they are indeed God, Jesus, or some other supreme god. Then he goes on to saying that there shall be:

1. Wars and rumors of wars
2. Nation rising up against nation
3. famines
4. pestilences
5. earthquakes
6. You (speaking to the Jews) will be hated of all the nations for his names' sake
7. because moral decay shall exist is large amounts people will hate one another]

Our discussion is only focusing on item number 7 above but we have to consider all of the other signs listed in items 1 through 6. The end of the world refers to when God burns our current planet to a cinder and rebuilds it into a paradise beyond imagination. See the last two books of Revelation.

The end of the age is what you are I are talking about. Not the end of the world. I used the term end of the world incorrectly but realize that after re-reading the scriptures. The end of the age refers to the end of the age of grace where anyone who wants to can be saved with the free gift of God. When the age of grace ends, and I believe that we are close to that age ending, it will be replaced with 7 years of unimaginable horror. The tribulation period mentioned in the bible. One can still be saved during this horrible tribulation period but it most likely will cost that person their life.
the end of the world/the end of the age is the same thing, the distinction is word soup. "the world" ends not only when it gets destroyed. it's also over if it becomes something fundamentally different. if our conceptualization of it doesn't fit anymore.

like if the world gets transformed into a jelly gumball eye, the world as it was has ended. the kingdom of god or whatever is so foundationally different that the distinction between world and age is meaningless. :)

on focusing on point 7; the reason i'm focusing on that is because it's the only sign that's vague. rest can be demonstrated. so i want to know whay evil concretely means, as i'm not interested in that. if you want to talk about the rest, if you believe that the signs of those are there, i'm absolutely baffled. there aren't more wars now than in history, there definitely aren't more plagues, earthquakes aren't that more common, israel has been embraced and reinstated supported by the world's leading governments (and you still aren't explaining yourself over the baffling notion that whatever number of the world government wants to DESTROY them because they voted for an UNBINDING CEASEFIRE REQUEST) ... it doesn't get anymore ahistorical if you think there are those cumulative signs compared to the early 20th century. covid and russian sabre rattling and some guarantees of palestinian life is nothing next to spanish flu and the world wars and the world's leading powers either explicitly hating jews or murdering them. like the comparison is absurd. and that's just looking at one point in history.
 
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