Birthers vs Returners

The Stossel argument is actually something that could be answered by looking at Romney's books.

(1) ostensibly, Romney will be more patriotic 'than average' with his wealth
(2) he's rich enough to be a decent sample


Romney himself is a symptom, not a cause. If he's doing something to boost profits, then chances are other people are too. I'd honestly expect his charity giving to be fairly high, but it's a really good question asking what his investments are doing to benefit people.

I'd like to remind people, though, that providing overseas jobs is still providing jobs. It's less nationalistic, but there are people benefiting. I don't think it's really desirable to champ your teeth over that. The main problem with high-wealth investments is that too much of the money gets shuttled into adversarial investments, where it's basically a poker game that takes wealth out of the system.
 
I'd like to remind people, though, that providing overseas jobs is still providing jobs. It's less nationalistic, but there are people benefiting. I don't think it's really desirable to champ your teeth over that. The main problem with high-wealth investments is that too much of the money gets shuttled into adversarial investments, where it's basically a poker game that takes wealth out of the system.
Well, people are electing the POTUS, not the UN secretary or something. It might be ultimately selfish and nationalistic, but in the end people won't vote to benefit people abroad. It's hard enough to get them to vote in accordance with the overall benefit of the people in their own country.

And I concur with the people who say that "moving jobs abroad is always good because Ricardo" make a too simplistic argument.
 
I'd vote for someone who made Int'l development a priority! If I found out someone was an aid worker in Haiti, I'd think that a checkmark
 
He panders to whom? What about the arguments he makes? Why are they wrong?


Stossel is like a number of CFC posters who redefine words outside of what they mean in common American English to "prove" his point. I saw a segment he did on "greed is good", and at no time was any of the things he claimed were "good" "greed".
 
Except that ignores that many of the decently paying factory jobs arent being replaced by engineering jobs, they are getting replaced with low pay jobs in the service sector.

They were not decently paying factory jobs, they were over paid factory jobs. Workers via their Unions they petitioned and won to price themselves out of the labor market. It made for a couple decades of good pay, but the market adjustment happened and now they are out of luck. You can blame that on short term greed of simply having an fundamental misunderstanding of the labor market they were operating in, but the result is the same.

I am not entirely unsympathetic, because labor screws other labor. Maybe those car factory workers didn't ask for unsustainable wages and benefits, but the steel workers did. The steel workers put themselves out of business and in the mean time make the material prices for locally produced cars go up. Its a crazy crisscrossed economic world we live in.

Just like it took a few decades for the consequences of artificially inflated labor pay to be felt, it will take a similar amount of time for the economy to adjust to the change in job structure. The market will see underemployment, it will adjust, and create jobs according to skills available married to whatever demand is present. In the mean time workers themselves are adjusting by taking jobs that do not marry up with their obsolete skill sets, that's a function of both the market AND the worker. And workers that continue to cling to the belief that their old job will return and refuse to learn new skill sets (many times because people lie to them about it) are not going to ever take advantage of the new economy.

That's called progress. The idea that factory workers, especially specific factory workers, should somehow remain in a constant frozen state in terms of both form and function is just backwards thinking.

Many of you guys will swear up and down that society should be constantly changing, but think the Ford plant down the street should remain a thousand year monolith of economic sameness for some reason.

The population density argument is flawed too, density doesnt determine how many resources you need. The Netherlands only has 16 million people it needs to worry about clean water, electricity, etc for, Pakistan has 177 million, Nigeria has 170 million, its tough to build infrastructure for that many people when you are starting from behind.

There is an argument about straight population density comparisons but that is not really it. The Netherlands might have clean water while Pakistan doesn't, but the Netherlands haven't had an industrial resource of note to speak of since flax.

But The Netherlands came into power via trade, not production. There are just to many variables in play to make a comparison between the Netherlands and Pakistan using just one hundred of them let alone one.

Stossel is like a number of CFC posters who redefine words outside of what they mean in common American English to "prove" his point. I saw a segment he did on "greed is good", and at no time was any of the things he claimed were "good" "greed".

Kind of like you in Constitutional debates? GOT IT.
 
If my candidate was running under the platform of "Less taxes for the rich!"

And he was very rich..

and it was reported that the amount of taxes he paid was fairly low..

and he didn't want to talk about it..

I'd start wondering why he wants to lower his taxes any further and would want him to have an open & honest discussion about the subject.
 
No, you look at it the wrong way. Romney hides his tax returns because they show he didn't manage to avoid enough tax, and he's afraid that this will make it look as if he tried to lower taxes for himself.

After all, if he had avoided his taxes already, his plan to lower them would be pure selflessness ;)
 
@Patroklos
If find your argument that labor pay was too high unconvincing. Because too high for what? It evidently worked until out-sourcing became attractive. And it evidently benefited EVERYONE by driving consumer demand through the roof.
The rest of your response basically says: Economies change.
Duh.
The question is how, why and if there are superior feasible alternative (economic change is for all I can see also on the macro level is not ahistoric - meaning, circumstantial - which suggests alternatives). The pre-outsourcing-era suggests: Yes, yes there are
 
They were not decently paying factory jobs, they were over paid factory jobs. Workers via their Unions they petitioned and won to price themselves out of the labor market. It made for a couple decades of good pay, but the market adjustment happened and now they are out of luck. You can blame that on short term greed of simply having an fundamental misunderstanding of the labor market they were operating in, but the result is the same.


So even though they were seriously underpaid, you want them to make less so that the US economy can be weakened? :crazyeye:


Kind of like you in Constitutional debates? GOT IT.


Funny how I've been pretty constantly on the side of the Constitution as written and interpreted by the Supreme Court and the majority of America's elected officials from Washington on down.
 
The woman highlighted in the Stossel video worked for Levi's in Tennessee, a state well known for their "unions" and "overpaid" factory workers.
 
@Patroklos
If find your argument that labor pay was too high unconvincing. Because too high for what?

For the market they were competing in.

It evidently worked until out-sourcing became attractive.

Its what made outsourcing attractive. Stuff like that isn't an instantaneous shift. Over years and years workers (and short sighted managers mind you, but their stake is less than the worker in this circumstance) drove their wages up and up, where the margin of profit went down and down. Industry by industry, factory by factory, they allowed themselves to be out competed. One businessman crunched the numbers and discovered outsource made sense. Another talked to the government of somewhere and opened up a better labor market. Another had commodities prices skyrocket on him based on the actions of the other two and went out of buisness.

So on and so on. Labor forces are not magic, they are actually pretty simple. Overhead is this and expenses are that in America, overhead is this and expenses are that in somewhere else.

And it evidently benefited EVERYONE by driving consumer demand through the roof.

Everyone aggregate, yes, but there were individual losers. Whenever economies shift there are going to be consequences for those caught in the middle of said shift. Especially those who can't see or refuse to see that shift coming.

The rest of your response basically says: Economies change.
Duh.
The question is how, why and if there are superior feasible alternative (economic change is for all I can see also on the macro level is not ahistoric - meaning, circumstantial - which suggests alternatives).

I answered all of those above. The world changed, some workers did not change with it or in the worst case exasperated their situation by doubling down on the old model.

The Democrats (and the Republicans when it suits them) like to roll out spots of some factory worker talking about how he works building cars just like his father did. Well guess what, your father was from a different generation and economy. Perhaps you should have a better goal for making a living than "do what my father did." And perhaps we should have a political culture that doesn't seem intent on telling people their specific job is an enshrined national treasure regardless of any economic forces.

Manufacturing is not a dead industry in the US, we still provide the vast majority of our own consumer needs ourselves, but when an industry is a loser it is a loser. Time to find a new winner.

The pre-outsourcing-era suggests: Yes, yes there are

It suggests no such thing. We had the exact same economic upheaval when the shift was from agriculture to industrialization. Did the society as a whole benefit? Yep. Were millions of individuals left doing a factory job making less than they did before using nothing of their previous skill set? Yep.

And this outsourcing thing is not something that started during this downturn either. In the prosperous 90s we were sending jobs overseas as well. Its obvious easier to deal with a change in your own part of the economic puzzle in a time of plenty, but the labor market is not the only part of the economy either.

So even though they were seriously underpaid, you want them to make less so that the US economy can be weakened? :crazyeye:

Underpaid people don't get outsourced Cutlass, they get sourced.

But lets do it your way, continue to pay people more than their competition for doing the same thing. Then we will start with the protectionism. We will promise these workers the world despite knowing their wages and very jobs are being temporarily and artificially preserved, and then use their eventual downfall as a political ploy. Because its not like we don't know where that story ends.

By the way Cutlass, why are you not an American steel worker right now?
 
Is there a candidate running on that?

What is his platform then?

That's the only message that isn't "I'm not like Obama" that I've heard coming from Romney.

I mean, I'm Canadian, and don't really follow your politics as much, but this stuff does make its way here..

It does appear to be an important part of his platform.
 
You heard that coming form Obama, unsurprising. Maybe Cutlass if you are the minority that still pays attention to him.

It has nothing to do with that platform. If you can find anything from Romney saying he wants to cut taxes on just the rich (not repeal tax increases on them, tax cuts) I will concede. Good luck.
 
You heard that coming form Obama, unsurprising. Maybe Cutlass if you are the minority that still pays attention to him.

It has nothing to do with that platform. If you can find anything from Romney saying he wants to cut taxes on just the rich (not repeal tax increases on them, tax cuts) I will concede. Good luck.

Except the Tax Policy Center, a group Romeny himself has identified as an independent third party, has shown that even with all his growth claims there is no way Romney's tax plan can not increase the effective rates on the middle class while benefitting the upper class.
Romney's best defense is that "nobody can calculate the impact".
 
Just getting Obama out of office adds two points to GDP as people will no longer be afraid to invest and initiate new concerns.

Thats going to have a lot of effect on tax revenue.
 
Just getting Obama out of office adds two points to GDP as people will no longer be afraid to invest and initiate new concerns.

Thats going to have a lot of effect on tax revenue.

If Romney gets elected, I'd be more worried than ever before for our country's economic future.
 
With a Republican in office regulation will excellarate.

This would be really bad in the long run.
 
Just getting Obama out of office adds two points to GDP as people will no longer be afraid to invest and initiate new concerns.

Thats going to have a lot of effect on tax revenue.
As a short seller that has gotten trampled during the Obama years, you of all people should know that people are investing and generating capital gains revenue for the Treasury.
 
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