Boomers: The Evil Generation!

[Birdjaguar]

I will address your first half after some thought.

...[snip]
This is a very good example of both arguments coexisting and feeding one another in a circular manner. What do you mean I "fail at understanding people"? My understanding of this is that it implies that you think I'm morally judging my ancestors for adopting an agricultural lifestyle because, while I can recognize it has many problems, they were simply acting in their best interest. The first argument-- the grand narrative-- manifests in the implication that the expansion of agricultural society was sort of inevitable, or that everybody participated in it. If I'm failing to understand people, I must be failing to understand why everybody chooses to do something. I must be missing some type of human nature-- something inevitable to the development of human society. This is wrong. Partially urbanized, agricultural society only became the primary means of organizing humans through the continuous application of violence to force people into it. The second argument manifests by the moralization of agricultural life. It must be good, right? Evidently, since so many people live in it. But this comes from the assumption that my disagreement with the assertion that agrarianism spread peacefully, naturally, or positively. I never argued that my ancestors shouldn't have adopted an agrarian lifestyle. Only that they might not have willingly. But now the responsibility has fallen on me to somehow show that, today, the average person would have a better life if 10000 years ago the first farmer had decided to go back to the hills. If I can't prove that, then the status quo as it exists today is a good thing. Madness!

What you don't seem to understand is that people will create change and rarely accept the status quo if there appears to be something better. We tinker, we improve, we try new things. That will happen. That is why agriculture developed. Yes, you do seem to be judging agriculture as a bad path to follow. And yes, given the flora and fauna of our world 10,000 years ago and the curiosity and persistence of people, I do think that agriculture was inevitable. And IIRC it was developed at least different three times: Mexico, the Mideast and China. Once crops were domesticated, population grew and there were more farmers. People choose to grow crops because it made not starving easier even if the work was hard. Where people could not grow crops easily, they stuck with a pastoral lifestyle. People are guided by self interest. Violence was not the primary driver for the growth of agriculture. the search for good land and water was. For many thousands of years there was enough land for both farming and herding. Population growth among farmers drove expansion. Conflict came when both wanted the same land. You need to remember that even among pastoral peoples, they fought bloody wars over grazing and hunting lands. Indian tribes were notoriously cruel to their victims in their quest to control and dominate those around them. It seems that you want to place the blame for societal group violence on "the state" as manifested by the urban agriculturalists. You are uniformed. Violence is deeply rooted in humans, but as we have domesticated ourselves over time, we control ourselves better.

If you accept that our genetic code drives us to procreate, then for sure agriculture is better than herding. If you don't like that making and having babies is a prime mover for humans and most life forms, then, well, I don't know what to tell you. I think that you come at this from a perspective of trying to make a case against "the State" and its evils and find data to support that contention. I'd rather look at the data and see what it leads to. As I see it, a pastoral lifestyle served its purpose and people used it to find a better way of living through farming. That led to all kinds of new ideas and ways of doing things which also were thought beneficial by people. Violence has been with us all along and as the human population grew the violence scaled with it. Perhaps in the last 100 years we have finally learned that we need to stop the upward scaling and better control how we go about getting what we want. We'll see.

There are a few different, unconnected ideas at play here. The first is that change is inevitable. This I agree with, just because we live in four dimensions. Change to some extent is indeed inevitable but it may well be the only thing in the world that is. Atrocities? No evidence of that. Power? Violence backed by power? These things didn't exist for a very long time. "But their development was inevitable." No it wasn't. "Then why is it so omnipresent today?" And so on. This is the function of the grand narrative.

I don't want to disappoint you, but there were no noble savages. Are you making the claim that prior to agriculture there were no wars and no organized violence against where people killed needlessly? Violence has always been with us because we carry it. As populations grew so did violence and people constructed system to control and focus our worst tendencies. There is solid archaeological evidence of numerous Indian war prior to 1492.

EDIT: An organized state is able to apply violence differently and often more effectively than tribes. They have more resources and are better organized. Generally, they have more people too. It's not always true. Look at the attempts to conquer Afghanistan over the years.

 

[Birdjaguar]

boomers are a very selfish and detached generation. they dont understand the struggles young people are facing and they dont really care because theyve had their government job with full benefits, a great pension, and 4-6 weeks vacation time plus weekends and holidays for decades now. theyve driven the economy into the dirt, exported all of the manufacturing jobs, suppressed wages, and drove the cost of tuition through the roof. theyre done raping america now. they just have one final request and thats for you to pay top dollar for their fully paid off home that hasnt been updated since 1985. the one that they paid only a small fraction of what theyre asking for now. because why keep the home to pass along assets or an inheritance to the next generation, something that they can use to better their lives and generate wealth with when they can blow it all in one big boondoggle like theyve done with everything else?

hh

I guess we are all just scumbags.

 

[inthesomeday]

I will wait until you respond to the first half to reply

 

[Birdjaguar]

I will wait until you respond to the first half to reply

That will probably be tomorrow.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

We don't have migrating animals, or much of a plan, but the desert cities here have enough undeveloped parcels scattered through them that critters could get through if they had the urge. I was at the Sonic in Palmdale not long ago and there was this big old roadrunner patrolling the parking lot for stray tater tots. I was surprised, because while they can fly they generally don't and the Sonic is in the most heavily developed commercial section of the city...but upon reflection I could piece together a string of undeveloped parcels that would get him to the barren strip between Lancaster and Palmdale, and from there he could run all the way to Vegas if he took a mind...or Albuquerque to visit @Birdjaguar come to that. Have to cross a lot of 'roads to nowhere,' but that's about it.

Road Runner... the coyote's after you
Road Runner... if he catches you, you're through!

Thanks a lot. Now that's running through my head and won't leave.

Beep-beep!

boomers are a very selfish and detached generation. they dont understand the struggles young people are facing and they dont really care because theyve had their government job with full benefits, a great pension, and 4-6 weeks vacation time plus weekends and holidays for decades now. theyve driven the economy into the dirt, exported all of the manufacturing jobs, suppressed wages, and drove the cost of tuition through the roof. theyre done raping america now. they just have one final request and thats for you to pay top dollar for their fully paid off home that hasnt been updated since 1985. the one that they paid only a small fraction of what theyre asking for now. because why keep the home to pass along assets or an inheritance to the next generation, something that they can use to better their lives and generate wealth with when they can blow it all in one big boondoggle like theyve done with everything else?

hh

Wow, don't hold back - tell all of us older than 54 how you really feel!

Newsflash: Boomers were once young, too, and a lot of us had the same frustrations with our parents and grandparents: "They just don't understand how hard our generation has it! "

Since when do all boomers have government jobs? (Okay, I worked for Elections Canada in the '80s and '90s but it was only during elections and I was paid by the hour when in the office and while enumerating and by the day on the actual voting day. On election days we were expected to put in at least 12 hours at the polling station and we were not allowed to leave for any reason; whatever food we wanted had to be brought with us in the morning and nobody got rich from those jobs.)

Four to six weeks' vacation? On what planet did boomers get that, unless they were teachers or politicians or insanely rich corporate bosses? Well okay, I usually took January off from my home businesses, but I desperately needed the downtime after working 12-18 hours/day and sometimes 30 hours on/12 hours off for several months. But it's not like I actually went anywhere. I used the time to sleep and catch up on reading.

I do think that agriculture was inevitable. And IIRC it was developed at least different three times: Mexico, the Mideast and China.

Are you combining Egypt, the Tigris-Euphrates civilizations, and India into one vague "Middle East"? Keep in mind that some of those cultures were separated by millennia.

 

[Hamid.H]

I guess we are all just scumbags.

boomers are entitled to everything, but give back nothing. they took unprecedented wealth and prosperity that the world has never seen and managed to squander it all in a single generation.

Newsflash: Boomers were once young, too, and a lot of us had the same frustrations with our parents and grandparents: "They just don't understand how hard our generation has it! "

and you respond in the stereotypical boomer fashion. never acknowledging the differences both generations have faced, instead chalking it all up as being "the same." the truth of the matter is boomers have experienced huge increases in income and quality of life compared to their parents generation. the same cant be said for millennials or gen z when you factor in things such as the disproportionate increases in the cost of living, housing, the stagnation/decline in wages, fewer quality jobs that provide benefits and pensions, higher demands for education and the enormous increase in the cost of education, etc.

you have boomers with grade 12 working as medical directors and millennials cant get a minimum wage job as a office clerk without a university degree because boomers wont higher someone with the same qualifications they have. boomers climbing to the top and pulling the rope up behind themselves.

Four to six weeks' vacation? On what planet did boomers get that, unless they were teachers or politicians or insanely rich corporate bosses?

judging from your post im going to assume youre canadian, so you should know this. places such as canada post, healthcare, the school board, teachers, etc. all the cushy jobs that boomers have had locked down for decades, which ironically are the same people who are always on strike for more.

hh

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Road Runner... the coyote's after you
Road Runner... if he catches you, you're through!

Thanks a lot. Now that's running through my head and won't leave.

Beep-beep!

If it's any consolation I barely made it through my coney dog that day, for the same reason. Does that song have any other lines? Having a song stuck in your head is irritating...when it only has one line it's torture.

I did toss the beast a tater tot though, which he seemed to appreciate.

Who says us boomers don't give back?

 

[Birdjaguar]

boomers are entitled to everything, but give back nothing. they took unprecedented wealth and prosperity that the world has never seen and managed to squander it all in a single generation.
hh

Interesting. The boomers are now aged 55 to 73. Most are still working. We are the wealthiest seniors in history and a pretty big group to boot. Estimates put the collective wealth of US boomers at $30 trillion. As we die off in the next couple of decades, what do you think will happen to all that money? Some of it it will go to taking care of ourselves in nursing homes. But all the rest gets passed on. Nobody is taking it with them. The children and grandchildren of the boomers will get it. Maybe your parents are boomers.

I see that you are new here. Certainly one way to establish your identity is to show up and toss Molotov cocktails into discussions and wait to see what happens. It is not a great strategy though. Mostly because such posts are usually a demonstration of ignorance. If you want to criticize the boomers, please do so, but really you should try to be more thoughtful and at least make a half hearted effort to support your thinking with something other than whining. You might try reading some of the posts in this thread that talk directly about boomers and what has happened since they took the reigns of power in the 90s.

I'm curious how we have squandered all our riches.

EDIT: Here is a different take on Millenials: https://qz.com/1491389/millennials-are-getting-richer/

 

[aelf]

I find it disturbing that stereotyping people's behaviour, association, and guilt by demographic has taken new and bizarre turns and forms now that overt racism, antisemitism, sexism, and homophobia are publicly denounced.

Well, it's not quite the same. There is no rational mechanism by which purely being of a certain race, sex etc. would lead to people behaving in a certain way as a group. However, living in a certain period under certain conditions might lead a group to broadly hold certain beliefs. It's not controversial to say that as a group people in modern times believe that slavery is wrong, for example. It's therefore far from outlandish to say that boomers as a group broadly hold certain beliefs, and that those beliefs have shaped the world today in certain ways. After all, you don't seem to have a problem citing the zeitgeist - this is just another way of talking about a zeitgeist.

History has pretty much buried Marxism

That is a rather ignorant claim. Or perhaps, more accurately, it's an ill-informed and unexamined belief that can only be held by people who equate Marxism with Soviet-style systems or something.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

boomers are entitled to everything, but give back nothing. they took unprecedented wealth and prosperity that the world has never seen and managed to squander it all in a single generation.

You know what else boomers did? They reproduced. You owe your existence to the fact that at least two (possibly four; you give the impression of being fairly young) boomers opted to have children. At least acknowledge that.

and you respond in the stereotypical boomer fashion. never acknowledging the differences both generations have faced, instead chalking it all up as being "the same." the truth of the matter is boomers have experienced huge increases in income and quality of life compared to their parents generation. the same cant be said for millennials or gen z when you factor in things such as the disproportionate increases in the cost of living, housing, the stagnation/decline in wages, fewer quality jobs that provide benefits and pensions, higher demands for education and the enormous increase in the cost of education, etc.

Of course they're not the same. The attitude is often the same, though. I got lectured on "you younger generations blah-blah-blah..." by my grandfather often enough. Mind you, being born in 1901 in Norway, he wasn't a boomer.

you have boomers with grade 12 working as medical directors and millennials cant get a minimum wage job as a office clerk without a university degree because boomers wont higher someone with the same qualifications they have. boomers climbing to the top and pulling the rope up behind them.

I'll reply to this paragraph after it's been run through the spell checker/grammar checker. It's unclear.

judging from your post im going to assume your canadian, so you should know this. places such as canada post, healthcare, the school board, teachers, etc. all the cushy jobs that boomers have had locked down for decades, which ironically are the same people who are always on strike for more.

I've been a teacher. It's many things, but only a non-teacher would ever describe it as "cushy." You remind me all too well of the Reformacons posting on CBC.ca, mocking our Prime Minister (who was a teacher before becoming an MP and then PM) as someone who "never worked a day in his life." Oddly, not one of those posters ever answers my question when I ask them if they would ever have the guts to say that in person to a teacher.

Granted, the older Canada Post workers have very good pay, and yes, they tend to strike at really inconvenient times, like November/December. However, the last time our regular delivery person here went for a vacation, it was a standard 2-week absence, and he said he stayed home and relaxed. No fancy trips for him.

But I was unaware that all the school board members and all the teachers are people born prior to 1964 and that no younger ones ever win elections or get hired. I must compliment the younger-looking ones on their amazing health, to look like they're in their 20s but are really at least 54-55 years old. I get told fairly often that I don't look my age (people usually underestimate it by about 10-12 years), but I'm honest enough to admit I can't pass for a 20-something anymore.

It sounds like you're ranting that younger people can't get well-paid government jobs. Surely you must realize that it's often not what you know but who you know that gets you into those, right? During one of my Elections Canada interviews, I was asked point-blank if I supported the incumbent MP (a question that was illegal for the interviewer to ask and she knew it - but she acted like it was "oops, I shouldn't have said that, but since I did....?"). I tap-danced my way around that, saying I'd known the incumbent for many years, as he had been one of my high school biology teachers. She promptly beamed, taking that as "Of course I support him! Of course I will vote Canadian Alliance!" (the precursor to the Reformacons). That seemed to matter more to her than my prior experience as an enumerator, poll clerk, constable, and Deputy Returning Officer.

If it's any consolation I barely made it through my coney dog that day, for the same reason. Does that song have any other lines? Having a song stuck in your head is irritating...when it only has one line it's torture.

I did toss the beast a tater tot though, which he seemed to appreciate.

Who says us boomers don't give back?

Enjoy!

 

[Hamid.H]

We are the wealthiest seniors in history and a pretty big group to boot.

we know.

Estimates put the collective wealth of US boomers at $30 trillion. As we die off in the next couple of decades, what do you think will happen to all that money? Some of it it will go to taking care of ourselves in nursing homes. But all the rest gets passed on. Nobody is taking it with them. The children and grandchildren of the boomers will get it. Maybe your parents are boomers.

its not getting passed on. the middle class is shrinking and boomers are selling off everything to fund their lavish lifestyles.

I see that you are new here. Certainly one way to establish your identity is to show up and toss Molotov cocktails into discussions and wait to see what happens. It is not a great strategy though.

if you didnt want peoples opinion whyd you make the thread? so everyone could tell boomers how great they truly believe they are?

Mostly because such posts are usually a demonstration of ignorance. If you want to criticize the boomers, please do so, but really you should try to be more thoughtful and at least make a half hearted effort to support your thinking with something other than whining. You might try reading some of the posts in this thread that talk directly about boomers and what has happened since they took the reigns of power in the 90s.

and theres that stereotypical boomer mentality again - any criticism of boomers is just ignorant whining.

everything i said is easily verified with statistics and economic data. its basically common knowledge at this point. to argue otherwise would be ignorance. millennials have a much lower net worth compared to boomers when they were the same age.

I'm curious how we have squandered all our riches.

boomers drove the global economy down into a ditch. the disparity between wages and housing is at an all time high. the following generations are poorer. millennials are financially much worse off than their parents although they are far more educated. boomers did not provide the same opportunities that the previous generation provided to them. theyve created a more demanding and less prosperous world for future generations.

EDIT: Here is a different take on Millenials: https://qz.com/1491389/millennials-are-getting-richer/

from your article:

They (millenials) have no car, no house, no spouse, and are overwhelmed by student loans. It may not be their fault, but they are worse off than Gen Xers or baby boomers, argues recent coverage of a study by the Federal Reserve Board. The study estimates millennials—the generation born between 1981 and 1997—have less wealth, income, and trappings of adulthood than other generations did at their age. But there is another way to interpret the the Fed’s results.

no doubt the article was written by a boomer who surely hasnt squandered all of the wealth and opportunity handed to him by the previous generation. after all, you dont get to call yourselves "the greatest generation" then get upset over valid and verifiable criticisms because youre entitled.

hh

 

[Patine]

@Hamid.H Why do you always speak in absolutes and as though your stereotypes are 100% correct without exception, and then become highly defensive - even hostile - when others speak the same way? How do you justify such constant hypocrisy and the moral self-righteousness you take in it? I'm just curious here.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

@Hamid.H Why do you always speak in absolutes and as though your stereotypes are 100% correct without exception, and then become highly defensive - even hostile - when others speak the same way? How do you justify such constant hypocrisy and the moral self-righteousness you take in it? I'm just curious here.

Ten bucks says it's intentional.

 

[Hamid.H]

@Hamid.H Why do you always speak in absolutes and as though your stereotypes are 100% correct without exception, and then become highly defensive - even hostile - when others speak the same way? How do you justify such constant hypocrisy and the moral self-righteousness you take in it? I'm just curious here.

you realize im discussing economic data, right? this sort of thing is black and white. as far as stereotypes, any stereotypes that ive made about boomers, ive openly stated that they are stereotypes. the truly interesting part is that boomers keep demonstrating that described behavior/attitude over and over again itt.

hh

 

[Patine]

you realize im discussing economic data, right? this sort of thing is black and white. as far as stereotypes, any stereotypes that ive made about boomers, ive openly stated that they are stereotypes. the truly interesting part is that boomers keep demonstrating that described behavior/attitude over and over again itt.

hh

The social sciences are NEVER black and white. They are NEVER binary. Anyone who views them as such walks a dangerous path to either extremism to ruin, in all likelihood.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

millennials are financially much worse off than their parents although they are far more educated.

If all the teachers were boomers, they would have taught that the first word in a sentence is capitalized. They would also have taught the correct use of apostrophes. A distressing number of younger teachers (remember, they are the ones who are really 55 but look to be no older than 22 and fresh out of university) don't seem to know these things, and moreover, they don't seem to care if they know them.

As for lavish lifestyles... I suppose my lifestyle would be considered lavish by the average person living in a Third World country, but it's hardly lavish by the standards of my age-peers or anyone else around here.

 

[Hamid.H]

The social sciences are NEVER black and white. They are NEVER binary. Anyone who views them as such walks a dangerous path to either extremism to ruin, in all likelihood.

no one here is talking about social sciences. were taking about economic data. its as if you didnt even take the time read the first sentence of my response to your personal attack on me.

If all the teachers were boomers, they would have taught that the first word in a sentence is capitalized. They would also have taught the correct use of apostrophes.

and yet more personal attacks...

hh

 

[Patine]

no one here is talking about social sciences. were taking about economic data. its as if you didnt even take the time read the first sentence of my response to your personal attack on me.

hh

Economics is a social science.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

no one here is talking about social sciences. were taking about economic data. its as if you didnt even take the time read the first sentence of my response to your personal attack on me.

and yet more personal attacks...

hh

What "personal attacks"? I pointed out that one of your posts is unclear, and observed that there's quite a difference between boomer-age teachers and the younger teachers you claim don't exist because every teaching job has been taken by a boomer who gets 4-6 weeks of vacation from their cushy jobs and they will never, ever allow a younger teacher to be hired.

So when the last boomer teacher dies, I guess all school boards (staffed by overpaid boomers who also get 4-6 weeks of vacation) can be disbanded, along with the education faculties in every university in the U.S. and Canada. I'm afraid to think what will happen to written English (and whatever other languages may be relevant at the time).

 

[Hamid.H]

Economics is a social science.

economic data is mathematics. economic theories are social sciences.

hh