Boycott Bee!

[Nexlev]

The tortured logic by which Americans have convinced themselves that "the c-word" is some sort of slur, and not just a perfectly ordinary swearword, like all the other swearwords you know and love, is more offensive to human dignity than the word itself could ever be.

I mean, grow up, jeez.

our culture is simply not as advanced as the sophisticated continent from which most of us came

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Now, you can't both be right.

Well, we actually can. It is derogatory towards the woman it is said to. EXTREMELY so. When it is said to such a woman it is taken to mean exactly what BirdJag went on to say; that the particular targeted woman is of no value other than as a life support system for genitalia. But there is no common usage of it that applies it towards women as a general case, other than the typical female genitalia references targeted at a man that are definitely slurs towards women, because in usage the implication is that 'word for female genitalia' equals "you are less than a man," and that only works inside the assumption that "man" is inherently superior.

Basically, the only men who are susceptible to female genitalia insults are men who do believe in a general sense that men are superior, and also have some doubt that they are 'living up to' said assumed superiority.

 

[Berzerker]

I don't think the Samantha Bee discussion should be conflated with the Rosanne discussion

Kinda unavoidable since Bee's only under serious attack because of what happened to Barr. And I see now Bee is apologizing and Trump's pressuring the network to act. That makes me madder than the insult. Trump doesn't want his daughter insulted, dont make her an 'advisor'.

One is an insult targeting a single person. One is a racial slur targeting several million people. Saying they are both "insults" is erroneous. Saying it over and over will eventually become lying.

Both insults targeted individuals - Valerie Jarrett and Donald Trump. How does one make the other not an insult? If someone calls Trump an ape does it cease being an insult because Jarrett was called an ape too? A lie doesn't become a lie because of repetition - if its a lie, its a lie from the get go. And that could be said about repeating the accusation Barr was calling black people apes. She didn't, she called Valerie Jarrett the child of Kim Hunter's character. Why? Because of a resemblance. The joke doesn't work if Barr said it about Michele Obama.

And you from the other thread:

what I said there also applies here:

There was no indication that Barr was joking at all. That was just her post tweet defense.

So she didn't tell us it was a joke. She's a stand up comedian, they dont open the show by announcing they'll proceed to tell jokes. Hell, who does that? We dont need a 'just joking' at the end to figure out it was a joke. Of course it was a joke, thats what she does - tells jokes.

Combining both the ape remark with Muslim she was being doubly offensive by invoking two of Trump's supporters most red meat pejoratives.

I figured it was about Jarrett's politics... Thats another reason the joke failed, she didn't explain why the Muslim Brotherhood factored into it. But I doubt she was thinking of red meat Trump supporters, just Jarrett's politics. Barr went after her because of something Jarrett said, probably about Trump.

Calling trump an orangutan is a recent phenomenon based solely on Trump's personal style.

And comparing Valerie Jarrett to the female ape from the movie is based on appearance too. I can figure that out, but I've seen the movie so many times I know what Kim Hunter's character looked like. Google images of both and you'll see a resemblance. The joke doesn't work for a black woman (or any woman) who doesn't resemble the character.

There is no history of slurring white people by calling them orangutans. Maher is a comedian/entertainer whose business it is to mock pompous celebrities he dislikes. It is no different than mocking Obama for his ears or Rush Limbaugh for being overweight.

They're both stand up comedians by training...and friends. I suspect Maher will invite Roseanne on at some point to defend herself if he doesn't defend her first. But yes, Barr's mistake was comparing a black person to an ape. Thats problematic given the racist' proclivity for comparing black people to apes, but she based the comparison on a resemblance that does exist. Any fan of the movie can see that without even thinking about the sins of racists.

Reminds me of a South Park episode (again ), Chef (the black guy played by Isaac Hayes?) is pissed off by the town flag depicting white men standing around while a black guy is hanged and wants it changed. The debate is finally resolved when the men standing around as the black guy is hanged are ethnically diverse, including a black man. But Chef has an epiphany - he cant understand why the kids he has mentored dont see why the flag is racist. He realizes they didn't even notice race, to them the flag was just some guys hanging a criminal.

Should she lose her TV forum/show? Again this is a wholly different situation. Do you go after her for using bad words? For calling out the innocent daughter of a bad president? Was she just unnecessarily mean?

I dont think either should lose their show. Unwise jokes, hurtful, yes... But I can see why a parallel is being drawn, both women and blacks have suffered from these insults. I can understand why both groups would react angrily to being called c**** or apes. But the insults were directed at individuals for a reason.

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, we actually can. It is derogatory towards the woman it is said to. EXTREMELY so. When it is said to such a woman it is taken to mean exactly what BirdJag went on to say; that the particular targeted woman is of no value other than as a life support system for genitalia.

I mean, it could just mean that she's an unpleasant person. There is that possibility. We're not in a high school English class, we're not being graded by how elaborate a crystal tower of metaphor we can infer.

Like I said, I do think that the way it is used by some men is at least slur-adjacent, bu that's a question of use, not etymology. "The t-word" and "fanny" have identical literal meanings, in the British usage, but carry none of the uncomfortable undertones.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Both insults targeted individuals - Valerie Jarrett and Donald Trump. How does one make the other not an insult? If someone calls Trump an ape does it cease being an insult because Jarrett was called an ape too? A lie doesn't become a lie because of repetition - if its a lie, its a lie from the get go. And that could be said about repeating the accusation Barr was calling black people apes. She didn't, she called Valerie Jarrett the child of Kim Hunter's character. Why? Because of a resemblance. The joke doesn't work if Barr said it about Michele Obama.

It's funny that while trying to pretend that there is no context here you chose to mention "it doesn't work if she said it about Michelle Obama," which is actually a very large part of the context you are denying since it has been said, frequently, about Michelle Obama and unless you live under a rock you are well aware of that fact.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I mean, it could just mean that she's an unpleasant person.

Indeed it could. It's individually applied either way.

 

[El_Machinae]

The tortured logic by which Americans have convinced themselves that "the c-word" is some sort of slur, and not just a perfectly ordinary swearword, like all the other swearwords you know and love, is more offensive to human dignity than the word itself could ever be.

I mean, grow up, jeez.

Any specific swear word will change in intensity over time, because a swear word is more than just a word, it is an expression of vulgarity or hatred or disgust or anger. For this reason, we always need curse words, and we always need words that are worse than normal curse words.

 

[Tigranes]

“Full Frontal” host Samantha Bee apologized Thursday after she used an extreme vulgarity to slam Ivanka Trump in her monologue on Wednesday over a photograph the first daughter shared on social media, calling her a “feckless c---.

The apology came a day after Bee used the slur on her TBS show, shocking viewers and critics alike.

"I would like to sincerely apologize to Ivanka Trump and to my viewers for using an expletive on my show to describe her last night," Bee said in a statement. "It was inappropriate and inexcusable. I crossed a line, and I deeply regret it."

Not enough.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not enough.

Relative to what?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm comfortable taking my cues from my woke female friends.

So your "woke" female friends (whatever that means) are comfortable going around insulting people?

Interesting.

And what is your reaction to a woman who gets upset if you call her by that word? Do you further insult her by telling her she's not "woke" and should just laugh it off?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So your "woke" female friends (whatever that means) are comfortable going around insulting people?

Interesting.

And what is your reaction to a woman who gets upset if you call her by that word? Do you further insult her by telling her she's not "woke" and should just laugh it off?

Oooooookay...so you took his post to mean the exact opposite of what it clearly meant. Gotta wonder how he's gonna handle that...

 

[Zkribbler]

And that could be said about repeating the accusation Barr was calling black people apes. She didn't, she called Valerie Jarrett the child of Kim Hunter's character. Why? Because of a resemblance..

You forget the long history of white supremacists dehumanizing blacks by equating them to apes.

 

[Berzerker]

The tortured logic by which Americans have convinced themselves that "the c-word" is some sort of slur, and not just a perfectly ordinary swearword, like all the other swearwords you know and love, is more offensive to human dignity than the word itself could ever be.

I mean, grow up, jeez.

Its a slur directed at women who dont do as they're told, if its used against men its coming from someone who uses it against women.

It's funny that while trying to pretend that there is no context here you chose to mention "it doesn't work if she said it about Michelle Obama," which is actually a very large part of the context you are denying since it has been said, frequently, about Michelle Obama and unless you live under a rock you are well aware of that fact.

I'm providing context... You burdened Barr with your context so I asked you to identify it. As you can see, your context comes from racists. Did Barr ever accuse Michelle Obama of being the offspring of the female 'ape' from the movie? Here's some more context - Barr got sued for going after Zimmerman. She got in trouble for being an activist on behalf of Trayvon Martin. Why does that context get ignored while you replace her motives with those of racists? But Barr has a history of this stuff:

"susan rice is a man with big swinging ape balls."

Seems both racist and sexist

You forget the long history of white supremacists dehumanizing blacks by equating them to apes.

I didn't forget it, I just dont blame her for their sins

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The tortured logic by which Americans have convinced themselves that "the c-word" is some sort of slur, and not just a perfectly ordinary swearword, like all the other swearwords you know and love, is more offensive to human dignity than the word itself could ever be.

I mean, grow up, jeez.

If you were to use that term to me in person, I would not be pleased. At all. It's considered gutter language here, and only incredibly rude, boorish people use it, as a way to be derogatory.

I am also really not pleased having it used to me online. It doesn't matter if it's a man or woman who uses it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I didn't forget it, I just dont blame her for their sins

Or her own, curiously enough.

 

[Berzerker]

not true, I called her out on what she did to Zimmerman's folks - that was far more outrageous than her ape humor

Seems both racist and sexist

How did you miss that? Its in the very same post you quoted.

 

[Zelig]

So your "woke" female friends (whatever that means) are comfortable going around insulting people?

Interesting.

And what is your reaction to a woman who gets upset if you call her by that word? Do you further insult her by telling her she's not "woke" and should just laugh it off?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

Otherwise, your reply seems orthogonal to my post.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

How did you miss that? Its in the very same post you quoted.

As I have said, when you start demanding that your need to relitigate Zimmerman be pandered to yet again, I tune you out.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

Otherwise, your reply seems orthogonal to my post.

Okay, so it's a kind of slang that's become more popular in recent years. Clarification is still needed, since the definitions I found of "orthogonal" involve mathematics, which has nothing to do with this conversation. If a woman told you not to call her the "c-word" would you comply?

(To the peanut gallery: please note that I am asking one person for clarification. No other replies are requested or necessary.)

 

[Ajidica]

Not enough.

Who died and made you Pope?

Unless, of course, you are simply commenting that you don't consider her statement sufficient; in which case, that is, like, your opinion, man.

I think it is worth pointing out that Samantha Bee is on cable while Roseanne Barr was on broadcast television. Broadcast television has always been exceptionally skittish with regards to anything resembling "controversy" or "courageous".