Well what do you exactly expect from a bunch of dumb poor people?amadeus said:
BREAKING NEWS: Venezuela rejects Chavez
- Thread starter Kraznaya
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You wouldn't be suggesting that he kept the specifics of the changes hidden from his supporters on purpose, would you?
Princeps
More bombs than God
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You wouldn't be suggesting that he kept the specifics of the changes hidden from his supporters on purpose, would you?
Surely this is never done in our civilized western democracies!
Well it is, but our media often calls them out on it. Chavez is working towards making the media state-controlled.
holy king
Deity
Enkidu Warrior
Ultramagnetic
You should run for public office!
It seems that this was pretty much the attitude of the Venezuelan opposition during their time in power, which goes a long way to explain Chavez's success.
Nobody has discussed the real reason he lost this vote - abstention. Chavez's former allies couldn't stomach voting for him so they didn't vote at all. The great news tucked into this nugget is that regardless of Chavez's intentions, those around him, and many in his movement, do indeed have some integrity when it comes to democracy. This bodes well for the future, post-Chavez. There is a moderate alternative to Chavez's fiery rhetoric and flirtations with authoritarianism, and the corrupt, heartless opposition. This vote gave birth to it. I wish it well.
Richard Cribb
He does monologues
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The result of this referendum was unfortunate, but not a definite setback as far as I can see.
The first thing to consider was the fact that a key reason for this happening was that many Chavez supporters did not vote (compared to the 2006 election the opposition seem to have increased with less than 100 000 votes, while Chavez lost something like 2.8 millions).
One can only speculate in why,especially since most polls seemed to indicate quite another result, but leaving the effect of operation Pliers aside, probably the wide scope of the suggested reforms was a bit too much too swallow.
In any case, even if there is testing times ahead for Chavez (there is always a possibility ending up as a new Allende), he is still at the helmet, he is still enjoying broad popular support, and the opposition is fragmented (from reactionaries who could almost rival the average poster here to socialists).
This could of course be the reason that the right-wing toffs who are swamping this board seem to still repeat the mantra about the evil dictator.
And speaking of right-wing toffs:
Pick up any book on recent German history (I sure hope that Hitler for dummies exist), and learn which class that helped to get Hitler to power, which class that profited enourmously under his reign, and which political parties and organisations that were forbidden. Can you for instance spell K-R-U-P-P?
And the death toll of capitalism (even without the little corporal) is unrivalled by anything else, and it is still counting.
The first thing to consider was the fact that a key reason for this happening was that many Chavez supporters did not vote (compared to the 2006 election the opposition seem to have increased with less than 100 000 votes, while Chavez lost something like 2.8 millions).
One can only speculate in why,especially since most polls seemed to indicate quite another result, but leaving the effect of operation Pliers aside, probably the wide scope of the suggested reforms was a bit too much too swallow.
In any case, even if there is testing times ahead for Chavez (there is always a possibility ending up as a new Allende), he is still at the helmet, he is still enjoying broad popular support, and the opposition is fragmented (from reactionaries who could almost rival the average poster here to socialists).
This could of course be the reason that the right-wing toffs who are swamping this board seem to still repeat the mantra about the evil dictator.
And speaking of right-wing toffs:
Yes it would, mr. "Dude I am a total expert on the Meji restauration, North Korea, and Ignaz Holzbauer's symphonic works etc.etc.etc.". Unless, of course, the same label can be slapped on you and your little friends below.Would it be inappropriate at this juncture to suggest that Chavistas are a bunch of nitwits?
To be fair, this is something of the most ignorant I have ever read, and I used to teach history for teenagers.
Pick up any book on recent German history (I sure hope that Hitler for dummies exist), and learn which class that helped to get Hitler to power, which class that profited enourmously under his reign, and which political parties and organisations that were forbidden. Can you for instance spell K-R-U-P-P?
And the death toll of capitalism (even without the little corporal) is unrivalled by anything else, and it is still counting.
More than from ignorant , spoiled-rotten, rich kids, obviously.
Richard Cribb
He does monologues
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I just did, cross-posting with you.
There is a lot of wisdom in this, except that I am not so sure that I wish for any "moderate" alternative. Chavez is not really that much of a radical.
Ecofarm
Deity
amadeus
burning out his fuse out here alone
Because I totally claimed to be an expert, right?
Spoiler :
Yeah, I guess I've been living the high life on my $12,000/year income for too long now.
holy king
Deity
why?
this is in no way a logical conclusion, nor a valid counter argument....
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/history/new_economic_policy.html
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/redschl/historydocs/Nazi Germany A Level/Nazi Economic Policy 1933.doc
Ecofarm
Deity
Yeah, I guess I've been living the high life on my $12,000/year income for too long now.
2b spend $1/day (PPP).
I think we're even and I'm not bothering anymore.
holy king
Deity
and i was so looking forward to you explaining to me why the ussr and the third reich had socialist economies....Chávez said the opposition won a sh**tty victory, that they are "fulling their sh*t" (whatever the hell that means).
Oh, the great orator!
@luceafareul: I recommend you read what the venezuelan marxist magazine Tal Cual has to say about Chávez and his fascist mentors/friends.
Oh, the great orator!
@luceafareul: I recommend you read what the venezuelan marxist magazine Tal Cual has to say about Chávez and his fascist mentors/friends.
For those that read Spanish:
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/inte...uevo/urnas/elpepuint/20071205elpepuint_12/Tes
Basically, he says it was a ". .. .. .. ." victory and that he will "continue the offensive" in reforming the constitution. He didn't want to adopt the reforms and win a "pyrrhic victory" only to have the country fall apart with such a strong split in support and opposition. He is "sure" that the proposal will be put to a referendum again, either in the original or a modified version.
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/inte...uevo/urnas/elpepuint/20071205elpepuint_12/Tes
Basically, he says it was a ". .. .. .. ." victory and that he will "continue the offensive" in reforming the constitution. He didn't want to adopt the reforms and win a "pyrrhic victory" only to have the country fall apart with such a strong split in support and opposition. He is "sure" that the proposal will be put to a referendum again, either in the original or a modified version.
Damnyankee
Honest Abe
To be fair, this is something of the most ignorant I have ever read, and I used to teach history for teenagers.
Pick up any book on recent German history (I sure hope that Hitler for dummies exist), and learn which class that helped to get Hitler to power, which class that profited enourmously under his reign, and which political parties and organisations that were forbidden. Can you for instance spell K-R-U-P-P?
And the death toll of capitalism (even without the little corporal) is unrivalled by anything else, and it is still counting.
It doesn't matter which parties and people benefited under National Socialism, the fact is, Nazi Germany was a very collectivist nation, on par with the Soviet Union. Also, are you insinuating that Hitler was a Capitalist? This is something of the most ignorant I have ever read(to quote you). Also, I would like you to show me the statistics of the excesses of Capitalism.
Damnyankee
Honest Abe
You have got to be kidding me. Mr. Joseph "I
the dialectic" Stalin was a capitalist?
Richard Cribb
He does monologues
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Usually that is the impression you try to give, yes.
Didn't you for instance, back in your glorious rmsharpe days open a thread where you would answer any question about North Korea?
Wonderful, just wonderful.
I don't have any opportunity to find out if that is inded the case or not, and judging from my experience people like that is not so snotty so I find it quite unlikely. Also, that number doesn't tell me much if I also don't know your regular expenses. If you live at home with your parents, for instance, that is quite a substantial sum...Yeah, I guess I've been living the high life on my $12,000/year income for too long now.
But anyway Jesus would be angry with me if I showed such a degree of distrust, so considering this I can only urge you to donate your body to some Ethnographic museum when your time on this planet is finished. Everybody would be interested in watching such a strange specimen.
I might check it out.
However, as I probably might have mentioned already, somewhere, many of those who suffer from excessive leftism (what Lenin called an infancy disorder) are indeed very anti-Chavez.
Of course it bloody matters. When it is strongly supported and financed by capitalists and largely benefits capitalists, then it is not a duck...
Also, the term collectivist is a tricky one when discussing Nazism. That is a moot point anyway, since capitalism is a social system, not a political one.
Not really, even if Hitler of course admired the social darwinist tendencies in capitalism, and even if there are some key components in fascism/nazism which also can be found in capitalism. But fact is that he did favour the capitalists in the class struggle, and he did not challenge the capitalist system in any way, disregarding his former anti-capitalist rhetorics. Which was only decent of him considering that he would never have got anywhere without the generosity of Big Business.
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
Please note this and do it well. My time is limited. I have plenty of other things, happy as well as unhappy, going on in my life. I am not living in opulence. If I should do somebody's homework,especially on such a wast topic, I have to get paid. Handsomely.
If you are unaware of the world's history for the last few centuries (or for that matter, the state of the world today where capitalism is the dominant global system) one post by me will unlikely fix it.
But I suppose you have access to a library. So just go and check out for starters; colonialist,imperialist and counter-revolutionary wars, slave trade, repression of workers and unions and economic exploitation of the third world.
Some recent statistics of how the others live could also be of a certain didactic value.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Gotta love it. You ask the guy to make an offer of proof of what he alleges about capitalism....and all of a sudden his time is limited.
Classic.
Of course, only capitalists engage in all that right? I think, even going back a couple of centuries, you would be hard pressed to come up with enough bodies to surmount the total that communism has whacked in barely the last 100.
amadeus
burning out his fuse out here alone
I said I would answer it to the best of my ability. As well, that was during the height of the "ask a ..." threads. Since I'm interested in the situation on the Korean peninsula, I thought I'd share the insights that I had.
Pish-posh. Just because my servants are all Harvard alumni and I drive a Rolls Royce made entirely of rubies and once owned by George V by no means makes me a rich man. If you'll now excuse me, I have to go jump into my big pile of gold coins ala Scrooge McDuck.
