Britain is leaving the EU

[innonimatu]

Cooking you books and bank Fraud are illegal per the EU's own body of legislation

Can you quote the specific legislation that gave the ECB power to withdraw liquidity from all the greek banks like it did? You can't. There is none. Just as there is no investigation point to bank fraud with those banks, much less a proper judicial or regulatory decision.

Forgiving Debt is illegal per the EU's consitution

The EU has no constitution, it is not a state. It has a set of treaties, which it pompously calls its "legislation" (forgetting that laws are the sole province of states, but alas that peculiar delusion predates the EU). And no EU treaty, even now, forbids a default, which was the situation at the time.

Violating Bailout terms is illegal per the EU's agreement

Which bailout terms were those, which violations were involved in the ECB's decision at the time, and which laws were invoked?

Having higher GDP debt is illegal per the EU's own body of legislation

Do you want the list of EU states that are "illegal" per the EU's own "legislation"? I want you, it is quite long. In fact I believe the Euro would be defunct immediately were the ECB to withdraw liquidity from banks in all the countries with public debt above 60%, the magic number someone pulled out of thin air into a treaty long ago.

As for allowing greece to provided liquidity, EU Bent it OWN LAW to by reducding the "collateral" that the Greeks banks hold in order for them to not be declared bankrupt thus qualifying them for liquidity.

The classification of the "grade" of collateral used by the ECB in its rules has been changed several timers according to political conveniences. There is nothing technical abut it, it is and has always been a political tool.

 

[FriendlyFire]

What FRAUD ? Nope nothing here move along !
Besides Greek Not-Fraud is the EU fault, EU forced the Greece to cook its books, forced the Greeks of all the EU countries to get into so much debt and borrow so much.

Like I said I agree, the Iceland model would have been ideal solution for Greece.

The discrepancy was massive. On November 5, 2009, the newly elected socialist prime minister, George Papandreou, admitted that the year's budget deficit would be 12.7 percent of GDP, almost quadruple the 3.7 percent the outgoing right-wing government had projected. The country's finances were in much, much, rougher shape than anyone — especially anyone financing the Greek government by buying its bonds — had realized.
At the same time, tax evasion by Greek citizens and businesses was, and remains, a huge problem.

The financial crisis revealed that its government had been, for years, borrowing more than it reported publicly, meaning the country was running bigger deficits and racking up more debt than previously thought. As an EU member, it was required to limit its deficits to 3 percent of GDP and its debt to 60 percent of GDP. But Greece enlisted banks like Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase to evade those rules and borrow money under the radar to enable more spending.

 

[Agent327]

Can you quote the specific legislation that gave the ECB power to withdraw liquidity from all the greek banks like it did? You can't. There is none. Just as there is no investigation point to bank fraud with those banks, much less a proper judicial or regulatory decision.

Hm. Alt facts seem to get really popular these days.

Do you want the list of EU states that are "illegal" per the EU's own "legislation"? I want you, it is quite long.

A list containing 0 numbers is not 'long'.

Besides Greek Not-Fraud is the EU fault, EU forced the Greece to cook its books, forced the Greeks of all the EU countries to get into so much debt and borrow so much.

' Your honour, it's not my fault I submitted false figures to get on the dole! The devil made me do it!'

I'm sure the EU also 'forced' Greece to build prestige projects - like a state of the art train connection that was primarily used by highly paid train conductors. Bad EU Nazis!

Like I said I agree, the Iceland model would have been ideal solution for Greece.

1) There's no Iceland model
2) If there were, it wouldn't solve Greece's self-inflicted debt problem. (Apples may look a bit like oranges, but if you want an orange, you don't eat an apple.)

 

[Kyriakos]

This thread went off-topic and bizarro fast. Topic is the brexit. Keep your simplistic evaluation of Greece for some more relevant thread.

Moderator Action: As a participant in the thread, it is not your responsibility or right to dictate the terms of the discussion. Your third sentence can be considered trolling as well. Please keep in mind civil debate etiquette. 1 point infraction. - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Moderator Action: After appeal, this infraction was overturned. - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Silurian]

But the greeks had indeed already surrendered the essential thing about sovereignty (control, over their currency in this case) in exchange for those legislative promises that were later broken.

Are you saying that countries that use anothers currency have the "surrendered the essential thing about sovereignty."

Did countries whose currency was pegged to gold surrender there sovereignty.

 

[Arakhor]

But I tell you that now that I've had the time to follow May for a while, she strikes me as an extremely capable politician.

She wasn't much cop as Home Secretary and she hasn't done anything except woffle as PM.

 

[Silurian]

The EU has stated Spain will have a veto in the negotiations regarding Gibraltar.
I am not sure what to make of this as my understanding is that each individual EU27 member has to approve the result of the negotiations.
Has Spain just Trolled the UK by getting this statement of the obvious added to the EU response.

Much was made during the Scottish referendum that Spain would veto an independent Scotland joining the EU because of Catalonia. This would appear not to be the case.

From The Telegraph

Theresa May would go to war to defend the sovereignty of Gibraltar just as Margaret Thatcher did with the Falklands, a former Tory leader has suggested.

Lord Howard said the British Government will stand by Gibraltar during Brexit talks amid claims of an EU “land grab” for the territory by Spain.

It came as Spain confirmed that it would not initially block an independent Scotland's attempts to join the European Union (EU)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ar-defend-sovereignty-gibraltar-says-michael/

 

[Kozmos]

If this all results 5 years down the line in NI reuniting with Ireland and Scotland separating and applying for EU I'm going to have a nice laugh. UK will have become Serbia.

 

[Kyriakos]

If this all results 5 years down the line in NI reuniting with Ireland and Scotland separating and applying for EU I'm going to have a nice laugh. UK will have become Serbia.

YUK?

 

[Broken_Erika]

I Prefer QUAK(Quasi-United-Anglican-Kingdom) but that requires whales to cede as well, so i guess they'll have to stick with the Formerly United Kingdom(FUK)

 

[EnglishEdward]

Are you saying that countries that use anothers currency have the "surrendered the essential thing about sovereignty."

I think that is true to a certain extent.

Did countries whose currency was pegged to gold surrender there sovereignty.

Not in my opinion.

The EU has stated Spain will have a veto in the negotiations regarding Gibraltar.
I am not sure what to make of this as my understanding is that each individual EU27 member has to approve the result of the negotiations.
Has Spain just Trolled the UK by getting this statement of the obvious added to the EU response.

I am inclined to agree with you.


But if the UK properly breaks up, I have no doubt that the Falkland Islands,
Gibraltar and the British Indian Ocean Territory will have quite different futures.

 

[Kozmos]

YUK?

In the same way brother Serbs yell Kosovo je Srbija! I can see English brethren yelling Wales is England! in the not too far future

 

[Broken_Erika]

Cede them to Jamaica, or Iceland. All glory to the New Icelandic Empire!

 

[Arakhor]

Anglican refers to the Church of England, not to England itself. Besides, Quasi-United would work better if Wales was still part of the Union (not that there is any realistic chance of that not happening).

Michael Howard has recently made waves by comparing May to Thatcher and Spain to Argentina, because he apparently has no idea of what not to say in any company, least of all polite ones.

 

[Broken_Erika]

I know, but QUEK just doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[uppi]

The EU has stated Spain will have a veto in the negotiations regarding Gibraltar.
I am not sure what to make of this as my understanding is that each individual EU27 member has to approve the result of the negotiations.
Has Spain just Trolled the UK by getting this statement of the obvious added to the EU response.

The way I understand it, the approval of the members will have to be given after the negotiators have finished and proposed an agreement. The members can then approve or reject the whole package. If this would be a good deal for the EU and the other 26 members approve, they would have little patience for silly territorial disputes between Spain and the UK (QUEK? FUK?) and pressure Spain to accept it, despite possible misgivings about the status of Gibraltar. But with this statement, the EU negotiators cannot make any concessions on the status of Gibraltar without explicit approval from Spain. That means Spain can avoid any objectionable language becoming part of the deal and does not have to make the (possibly empty) threat of a veto on the whole deal.

 

[Kyriakos]

How about "South Britain"? (ie England and Wales - and Cornwall and any microstate islands there).
SB, S for south or small :/

Imo the best thing would be for Scotland to stay, but be now given federal republic status so as to veto stuff.

 

[Lillefix]

The way I understand it, the approval of the members will have to be given after the negotiators have finished and proposed an agreement. The members can then approve or reject the whole package. If this would be a good deal for the EU and the other 26 members approve, they would have little patience for silly territorial disputes between Spain and the UK (QUEK? FUK?) and pressure Spain to accept it, despite possible misgivings about the status of Gibraltar. But with this statement, the EU negotiators cannot make any concessions on the status of Gibraltar without explicit approval from Spain. That means Spain can avoid any objectionable language becoming part of the deal and does not have to make the (possibly empty) threat of a veto on the whole deal.

And in return Spain will be more lenient on Scotland...

 

[innonimatu]

Hm. Alt facts seem to get really popular these days.

You should know it: you are one of the main posters of "alt facts" (I prefer the proper word: lies) in this website. And for an example:

Having higher GDP debt is illegal per the EU's own body of legislation

Do you want the list of EU states that are "illegal" per the EU's own "legislation"? I want you, it is quite long.

A list containing 0 numbers is not 'long'.

Because you probably are unable to understand long texts, here is a nice picture for you:



For reference: the original "Growth and Stability Pact", which brought signatories neither growth nor stability, imposed a 60% ceiling for public debt (what FriendlyFire referred to) and a 3% budget deficit limit, which were repeatedly broken by most states and finally declared "stupid" by a former european tin-pot dictator. The current set of treaties are so complex (and still stupid) that I'm sure you are unable to understand them even were I to spend hours explaining. The same limits were maintained but with an ever-growing list of caveat, selectively applied or not, depending on whether it is France or Germany violating them, or whether it is Greece or Malta. As another of the would-be tin-pot european dictators dictators stated recently: "la France, c'est la France"... and Germany can beet a trade surplus above 6%, violating another agreement, the EC doesn't care.

 

[Colon]

The EU has stated Spain will have a veto in the negotiations regarding Gibraltar.
I am not sure what to make of this as my understanding is that each individual EU27 member has to approve the result of the negotiations.
Has Spain just Trolled the UK by getting this statement of the obvious added to the EU response.

You need a qualified majority in the Council of the European Union, ie: 55% of the members representing 65% of the population. A majority in the European Parliament is also needed.