I'm fairly certain that saying the Treaty of Rome has been one of the greatest vehicles of peace in Europe for 60 years is not remotely the same as saying that WW III will start if we leave the EU.
Britain is leaving the EU
- Thread starter Cheetah
- Start date
Broken_Erika
Play with me.
Wars have started for far dumber reasons than that.
The UK is not going to have the EU's backing if it does those things though. The opposite probably, which is just another reason why Brexit is such a thoughtless thing to do. When both the UK and Spain were members, the rest of the EU was in the middle when it came to Gibraltar. Now that the UK is leaving, they're naturally going to take the side of the country that stays a member. The same may happen with Ireland concerning Northern Ireland.
The War of Jenkin's Ear would be a notable example.
HAND
Armchair Philosopher
The treaty of Rome is only partially responsible for peace in Europe in my view. US military dominance/occupation of Western Europe, NATO, the Marshall Plan, the partition of Germany and a completely new German constitution are elephants in the room which should probably be getting more credit in my opinion.
HAND
Armchair Philosopher
If Gibraltar has another referendum and decides to join with Spain, the UK would respect it, though nearly 99% of the voters rejected the shared sovereignty premise in the 2002 referendum, so I'm doubtful of any real change on that front. Assuming the EU backs Spain's claim in a future referendum on sovereignty, then the EU could risk looking obsessively expansionist in the face of a democratic vote. I think the only plausible change in Gibraltar would be independence from the UK and then maybe EU membership that way, but no merging with Spain.. but Spain could always threaten to block Gibraltar's EU entry unless they surrender sovereignty to Spain, so Gibraltar might inevitably lose that way.
Again, if there was a referendum in Northern Ireland to merge with the Republic of Ireland the result would be respected by the UK, but the result must also be respected by the EU if it doesn't go the way they want it to.
Edit:
With regards to Catalonia:
"Lord Tebbit proposes to bring Catalan independence to the UN"
http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2017/04/03/catalunya/1491209762_160422.html
Whether anything becomes of the suggestion is another question.
Last edited:
UN Charter - Article 2 (7) said:
unless the good Lord Tebbit believes that the Catalonian issue is a threat for world peace, the UN is the wrong venue.
If Spain persists in what exactly?
But yet Gibraltar's vote to stay in the EU is being ignored.
This is the text in the negotiating position of the European Council regarding Gibraltar.
It is only stating the obvious that all countries have a veto on any post Brexit trade deal and that Gibraltar isn't automatically included in any negotiations anymore than the Isle of Mann, Channel Islands, Cayman Islands, British Virgin Islands, Bermuda etc.
Cheetah
Deity
I think HAND has had the unfortunate experience of getting this news event through British papers, which have really distorted the story.
A Spanish position that the issue of Gibraltar's position vis-a-vis the EU must be negotiated properly for the Brexit treaty, is being replied to -- first from a member of the House of Lords, and then by the Defense Secretary -- with suggestions that the UK will go to war like it did with Argentina to defend Gibraltar's sovereignty!
Yes, it's factually correct, and nobody disputes their right to do so -- but no one at all has talked about taking armed action against Gibraltar!
It would be funny, if it wasn't so ludicrously aggressive and ignorant.
A Spanish position that the issue of Gibraltar's position vis-a-vis the EU must be negotiated properly for the Brexit treaty, is being replied to -- first from a member of the House of Lords, and then by the Defense Secretary -- with suggestions that the UK will go to war like it did with Argentina to defend Gibraltar's sovereignty!
Yes, it's factually correct, and nobody disputes their right to do so -- but no one at all has talked about taking armed action against Gibraltar!
It would be funny, if it wasn't so ludicrously aggressive and ignorant.
Pretty much all the UK's complaints about how it's being badly treated by the EU after the referendum is the EU saying "by the way this thing you took for granted that we were lenient about because you were in the union, maybe don't take it for granted anymore" and the UK completely overreacting
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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HAND
Armchair Philosopher
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...rajoy-as-gibraltar-tensions-grow-8749684.html
This was back in 2013, long before anyone had heard about Brexit. All the talk was about Grexit at the time.
Obviously, the Gibraltar situation is a convenient drum to beat to distract the masses in Spain, when accusations of corruption are flying around in Madrid, but there is also the desire for "reunification" in Spain. It's reasonable to assume there will be another attempt by Spain to gain sovereignty over Gibraltar over the next few years.
Well there could some kind of elaborate arrangement for Gibraltar in future, who knows? Does one referendum trump another? Only time will tell what will become of it all.
I'm not talking about the absurd possibility of war at all, which is just some old Tory mischief making by Michael Howard. He doesn't even believe it. It probably sells a few papers over here though.
Cheetah
Deity
Spain might try to peacefully convince Gibraltar of some form of joint sovereignty again, I guess. Probably won't happen though. While Gibraltar voted overwhelmingly in favour of remaining, they've also voted overwhelmingly in favour of staying in the UK in the past.
Though if the UK gets a really bad post-Brexit deal, I suppose things would change a bit... My money would still be on them staying out of the EU in favour of the UK though.
All the war rhetoric from the UK isn't gaining them anything however. Their best hope is that most of the EU negotiators and member governments don't notice it much, as it's mostly being drummed up in the British press.
Though if the UK gets a really bad post-Brexit deal, I suppose things would change a bit... My money would still be on them staying out of the EU in favour of the UK though.
All the war rhetoric from the UK isn't gaining them anything however. Their best hope is that most of the EU negotiators and member governments don't notice it much, as it's mostly being drummed up in the British press.
EnglishEdward
Deity
The British government (led by Theresa May) has been very civil throughout.
I always thought that it was David Cameron demanding special concessions,
that were a distraction and largely beside the point, that lacked civility.
The press here are very good at provoking aging politicains into headline comments.
Such ad hoc one liners should not be misconstrued as the UK gvernment position.
The question is does the EU or, for that matter, this forum believe in:
Verbose
Deity
Historically it's FAR from just the Euro — if monetary unions are supposed to be the Death Of National Sovereignty. Most of us only really were sovereign for the period following WWI, when all nations rushed to close their borders and try to distance themselves from everyone else.
EnglishEdward
Deity
You did not just miss the point. You missed posting it in the appropriate threat. I assume that you were a little busy.
But not wars that had the potential to end human civilization. I swear, if I have to live in a Fallout/Book of Eli post-apocalyptic wasteland because Europeans couldn't play nice, I'm going to be very upset.
