British Politics - Lib Dem Leader

[simonnomis]

Simon Hughes running a homophobic campaign ("the straight choice") against openly gay Labour candidate Peter Tatchell.

Chris Huhne using his personal fortune to place a huge bet against Ming to undermine his campaign.

Oaten pretending to be a family man while being gay.

Yeah, but that isnt really the old Tory/Labour battlecry of 'flip-flopping' on political issues is it? Labour flip-flopped back in the mid-nineties, the Lib Dems did not so long ago on taxes, and the Tories are at it right now.

The sad truth is that all three parties are so alike, especially now Cameron is in at Tory HQ, that its hard to distinguish between them. Besides party ethos, which I would argue is as strong as ever in all three parties, in practical terms differences of opinion seem to be the only dividing line these days. Well, that and the personalities of the respective shadow teams and leaders.

 

[happy_Alex]

No differences between the major parties? Are you insane? There's a large proportion of Tories would dearly love to see Health privatised, as well as private schooling vastly extended, at the expense of low income families and people.



The benefits that Labour have fought and won such as national health, welfare security and comprehensive education must be continuously fought for and protected.

labour changed in the 90s in two main ways. Firstly it changed its style and semantics, though this was to counter the the unfair reporting of the Tory press. I think the clause 4 change was part of this.

Secondly it moved to a moneterist style of economy, away from full employment and collective bargaining to control inflation to using a pool of unemployed to control wages.

Labour remains a movement commited to social justice and equality of outcome, despite the right leanings of the current leadership

 

[Suppersalmon]

No differences between the major parties? Are you insane? There's a large proportion of Tories would dearly love to see Health privatised, as well as private schooling vastly extended, at the expense of low income families and people.

The benefits that Labour have fought and won such as national health, welfare security and comprehensive education must be continuously fought for and protected.

labour changed in the 90s in two main ways. Firstly it changed its style and semantics, though this was to counter the the unfair reporting of the Tory press. I think the clause 4 change was part of this.

Secondly it moved to a moneterist style of economy, away from full employment and collective bargaining to control inflation to using a pool of unemployed to control wages.

Labour remains a movement commited to social justice and equality of outcome, despite the right leanings of the current leadership

At the moment The Labour Party and The Conservatives are mergeing into one what with Cameroon and Blair basically being the same person and enacting the same policies

comprehensive education must be continuously fought for and protected.

Why is it then that the Labour parties new education bill looks like its heading for a more accademic selection system then

but back On the topic

as a lib dem i was greatley saddend that Sir Ming got eleected i voted for chris huhne because he was the right man for the job. Were as IMO the only reason that Sir Ming had so much backing by Mp's is because the young mps no hes not going to last long in the job and they will be able to take over.

 

[happy_Alex]

as a lib dem i was greatley saddend that Sir Ming got eleected i voted for chris huhne because he was the right man for the job. Were as IMO the only reason that Sir Ming had so much backing by Mp's is because the young mps no hes not going to last long in the job and they will be able to take over.

...Crafty...

 

[simonnomis]

No differences between the major parties? Are you insane? There's a large proportion of Tories would dearly love to see Health privatised, as well as private schooling vastly extended, at the expense of low income families and people.

Yes, I am saying there is consensus on the substance of most political concepts in the UK now, especially economic ones, with differences mostly in the style of public policy execution. Though Im no fan of their party, the Tories would not like to see the NHS privatised, and anyway Labour with its nonsensical Foundation hospital proposals is no better. Similarly, Labour's Trust School proposals hardly shine when compared to Tory school plans, but then the difference is so slight that the Tories will vote for them anyway.

The benefits that Labour have fought and won such as national health, welfare security and comprehensive education must be continuously fought for and protected.

Many people feel Labour has already done its best to undermine these tenets of the Welfare State since 1994 with its revisionist, flip-floppery economic policies, and reliance on focus-groups and soundbites in lieu of substance. In essense they have rather passively continued the programme begun by the Tories in the early 80s in order to hang on to the centrist post-Thatcherite so-called consensus that now dominates British poltics. The enormous sums pumped into, for instance, the NHS do not mask their failure to reorganise and better manage it, or undo a lot of the damage caused in the 80s by the Tories.

Labour remains a movement commited to social justice and equality of outcome, despite the right leanings of the current leadership

How commited? If more of the party voted with their conscience on matters of freedom of speech and over ID cards, terrorism etc then I might believe it. On this issue the parties do still diverge, but there is nevertheless still a sense of blandness in politics these days.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

No differences between the major parties? Are you insane? There's a large proportion of Tories would dearly love to see Health privatised, as well as private schooling vastly extended, at the expense of low income families and people.



The benefits that Labour have fought and won such as national health, welfare security and comprehensive education must be continuously fought for and protected.

labour changed in the 90s in two main ways. Firstly it changed its style and semantics, though this was to counter the the unfair reporting of the Tory press. I think the clause 4 change was part of this.

Secondly it moved to a moneterist style of economy, away from full employment and collective bargaining to control inflation to using a pool of unemployed to control wages.

Labour remains a movement commited to social justice and equality of outcome, despite the right leanings of the current leadership

I'd almost completely agree with you as a committed social democrat, but so long as Labour pursue the most authoritarian policies of any government in living memory my vote will remain safely Lib Dem.

 

[Xenocrates]

I'd support any leader that can put the politics back into politics.

For me that's a more important issue than whether I like the policies.

Let's hope Ming can do that, but I am not hopeful.

 

[GinandTonic]

To misquote someone, I cant vote for Blair he sold magna carter down the river, I cant vote Lib Dem because they knit their own muslie and I cant vote Tory because Im not that much of a c%£t.

When Howard was made Tory leader I wasnt sure if it was ok to feel as happy as I did. He was responsible for the Poll Tac, the CJA 1994 and a proposed assylum policy they would have stoped his own parents frem escaping the nazi's, but at least he was totally unelectable. A touch of the night about him? Vlad's less charismatic younger brother. But now we have to worry that if we reject tony's neo-con crap we might get the nasty party with a bunny-ear hair band...

 

[ComradeDavo]

Simon Hughes running a homophobic campaign ("the straight choice") against openly gay Labour candidate Peter Tatchell.

Chris Huhne using his personal fortune to place a huge bet against Ming to undermine his campaign.

Oaten pretending to be a family man while being gay.

Firstly, Peter Tatchell himself has said that all is forgiven between him and Simon and that he actually mostly blames the media and Lbaour colleagues.

Huhne - Labour and Conservative MP's do stuff like that all the time.

As for your Oaten comment, I thought you said you weren't homophobic? Clearly he made a mistake, but it's his life to make a mistake with, and it's not as if Labour and Tory miniters haven't been embroiled in similar situations!

And what about my point that Labour have abandonded Socialism, despite being founded as a Socialist party?

 

[ComradeDavo]

I'd almost completely agree with you as a committed social democrat, but so long as Labour pursue the most authoritarian policies of any government in living memory my vote will remain safely Lib Dem.

I think that goes for a lot of people, Labour's drive towards a police state is alienating many.

And I think that the general public as a whole will soon realise this when they get made to pay for an ID card.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

I think that goes for a lot of people, Labour's drive towards a police state is alienating many.

And I think that the general public as a whole will soon realise this when they get made to pay for an ID card.

I think that's a good point. When people are told they will have to own a ID card, (I don't believe it will be compulsory to carry them straight away), no one really cares. Tell people they are going to need to buy the card, everyone is up in arms.

 

[happy_Alex]

As for your Oaten comment, I thought you said you weren't homophobic? Clearly he made a mistake, but it's his life to make a mistake with, and it's not as if Labour and Tory miniters haven't been embroiled in similar situations!

And what about my point that Labour have abandonded Socialism, despite being founded as a Socialist party?

RE Oaten, I'm not homophobic and just talking about homosexuality does not make me a homophobe anymore than talking about race makes me a racist. My problem is that he was not honest with the public. Perhaps he felt he would be less electable as an open homosexual (which is not true as Labour have gay MPs).

I don't agree with your point about Labour being founded as a socialist party. Socialism was a part of the origins of Labour, but not the main origin. Labour was the political wing of the Unions, who represted, and still do, working people.

 

[happy_Alex]

I think that goes for a lot of people, Labour's drive towards a police state is alienating many.

And I think that the general public as a whole will soon realise this when they get made to pay for an ID card.

You don't frighten me the words 'police state'. A friend of mine recently attacked while comming out of a restaurant and hospitalised.

So what about ID cards? many nations have them. If it help stops benefit fraud then thats a good thing in my eyes.

 

[Sophie 378]

I've never fully understood the main divisions between tory/labour/lib-dem. When I was really little, I knew that the Tories were on the right wing, but I thought Labour were supposed to be the centre party. Then, up until the last few years, I thought that they were supposed to be the most left-wing party. Now I'm getting even more confused with their increasingly right-wing policies. What order are they supposed to be in? For confusion I've voted Green and Independent so far.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

I've never fully understood the main divisions between tory/labour/lib-dem. When I was really little, I knew that the Tories were on the right wing, but I thought Labour were supposed to be the centre party. Then, up until the last few years, I thought that they were supposed to be the most left-wing party. Now I'm getting even more confused with their increasingly right-wing policies. What order are they supposed to be in? For confusion I've voted Green and Independent so far.

Green? You want to go back to the bone age? Keep your vegetable scraps and wear extra jumpers rather than have a nice wood fire Nice.

 

[Sophie 378]

No, I want solar panels on my roof, good insulation, more recycling points, more efficient machinery, less wastage, and less overconsumption.

EDIT. Money for research into "reduce, reuse, recycle", possibly from taxing wasteful things. More to be done to help the environment. Patch all the leaks in the water system for one thing - Tuesday's The Independent mentioned leakage on England & Wales of 3608 million litres per day for 2004-2005 (sourced from OFWAT - Security of Supply, Leakage and Efficient Use of Water report pdf)

 

[GinandTonic]

Re id cards. First lets kill the myth that they will ever be optional. Since they will be linked to Passports, Drivers Licences and benefits how many people will this exclude? A person who is not retired and does not have kids (the two most common benefits) has a job but no car and never leaves the country. This is such a small number of people that it will be strange and suspicious to belong to this minority.

So compulsion is a red herring.

So do we need them to fight terrorism? Well everyone involved in the July bombings and sept 11th was using their real identities. MI6 has said it would be of the most marginal benefit to them. Certainly the cash could be spent far, far, far more productivly.

So benifit fraud. Well total benifit fraud dwarfed by the cost of the project, so we wont recover more than a couple of percent of the cost. Most benifit fraud is false incapacity benifit, this will have no relivance whatsoever to that. The next most common is failure to declare cash-in-hand work which this will also have no impact on. Multiple identity scams are the headline grabbers but represent a fraction of the total.

So no significant impact on benefit fraud.

The cost of the card will be £90. The London School of Economics estimates the cost of a card to be £300. Blair says not to worry since you wont have to pay this. Pay this when you get a new card that is, since obviously as a tax payer the 300 is what you will pay. HMG has rejected a motion calling for the project to be costed? So either they know and regard this as a secret that cannot be released, or they have no idea what it will cost. Im really not sure what is worse...

If you want to spend my cash, you need a good arguement as to what that cash will achive. If you want to limit my freedoms you need a (dam good) justification as to the benifit of such an action.

Sorry your friend got done over, but what relivance does that have to id cards?


Re Oaten - Strange how we get to ask if politicos are bisexual. Dont get to ask any other sexual proclivities. (Gin refrains from the list of obscene questions we dont ask, but giggles thinking about it)

 

[ComradeDavo]

RE Oaten, I'm not homophobic and just talking about homosexuality does not make me a homophobe anymore than talking about race makes me a racist. My problem is that he was not honest with the public. Perhaps he felt he would be less electable as an open homosexual (which is not true as Labour have gay MPs).

I don't agree with your point about Labour being founded as a socialist party. Socialism was a part of the origins of Labour, but not the main origin. Labour was the political wing of the Unions, who represted, and still do, working people.

Oaten - Ok, your not homophobic, so don't act like it by attacking the fact that he has slept with a man. I myself have cheated in the past so I know that it is not something that is resting easy on his mind, and he obvisouly knows he made a mistake and it's private life.

As fo Labour, they were founded as a Socialist party for the working class designed at retristubution of wealth. You have just walked into a trap by mentioning the unions as we all know Blair has done his best to distance himself from them!

You don't frighten me the words 'police state'. A friend of mine recently attacked while comming out of a restaurant and hospitalised.

So what about ID cards? many nations have them. If it help stops benefit fraud then thats a good thing in my eyes.

I don't see how having paid for an ID card would have helped your friend Of course I want to see an end to violence such as that but not if it means that I losoe my freedom of speach and my every move is tracked. There are better ways to combat crime, such as putting more money into police forces, better rehab for criminals once in jail and building up community relations and co-operation. Polce force yes, police state no thanks.

 

[GinandTonic]

Of course I want to see an end to violence such as that but not if it means that I losoe my freedom of speach and my every move is tracked.

You are falling into the trap of defending the freedoms OVER people being done over in the street. The people being done over in the street will not be helped whatsoever by ID cards. Its a case of spin, the gov trying to put it that if you object to ID cards you must want to see grannies raped by aids infected illegial imigrants who want their pension to buy semtex, when they havnt proved any need or benifit.

 

[happy_Alex]

Oaten - Ok, your not homophobic, so don't act like it by attacking the fact that he has slept with a man. I myself have cheated in the past so I know that it is not something that is resting easy on his mind, and he obvisouly knows he made a mistake and it's private life.

Ok, no offence, but you are beginning to cheese me right off. Im not acting like a homophobe, im simply saying if one is in public life one should act in an honest way. This does not make me a homophobe, stop slandering me.