[BtS] Saxony / Saggsn (modular)
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cool3a2
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Thanks for the sources, they look valuable. I'd say that the units on the pictures are between rifleman and musketman (in terms of civ4), so one could base either a late musketman or an early rifleman on this. As I already requested a rifleman from Bakuel based on this:
... I'd say your pictures could be a base for a late musketman here. Unfortunately, I don't want to annoy Bakuel again. He's certainly the Ekmek of unit modding, and I was laways lucky with his units, but I already rquested a at from him. Enough for the moment, I guess. But I'd take volunteers for this.
Actually, I already looked for units I could put in for a medieval unit set. I was thinking about a germanic unit set I found in the file db. Currently it's 'reddish' - I would have tried to change the colours to green. If you already have a knight and believe that you could make the rest of the units easily, then I'd say give it a go! These are the units I could need:
- longbowman
- maceman (with mace plase, not with sword
)- pikeman
- crossbowman
(- knight - already done)
So in short: the complete medieval set. I just listed these here as some may consider swordman and co. also as medieval, but as I am using ambrox germanic units for that purpose and feel satisfied with them, I really don't see an urgent need for new units of the aerly eras.Anyways, I'd accept your offer about the medieval units, thanks! Just keep in mind that the meaning of the word 'Saxonian' is sometimes not clear. Originally, Saxons were a germanic people from north western Germany (I suppose there is the connection to the Anglo-Saxons, too), but nowadays an eastern german 'people' is considered to be Saxons and the latter are what this is about. Don't confuse them, please.
@kochman: I'm afraid, your assumptions are wrong. The UB replaces the theatre. The colloseum can be built pretty early in the game and those early eras, these didn't exist as an own people actually. Hence replacing the theatre felt more natural to me. But you are right, that info was missing in the first post so far - I've corrected this now.
Now, my problem was that the trait creative boosts the building speed of theatre and therefore that of baroque opeas, too. Of course, I could have removed this feature by editing the operas stats, but I didn't want to as then creative would lose an important property. Also, I don't exclude that I'll add another leader some day and then I'd really want that August would have some influence on this building. Not to mention that this meets the rel Augusts behaviour pretty well, I'd say. In short: I didn't want to remove that creative speeds up the building time of the opera, so I only limited the speedup. Still, I thought this needs to be considered when thinking about the UBs stats.
But anyways, to me it looks like you still miss the point: I'm absolutely okay with making the UB better, the question is simply how I'll improve on the UBs stats. If you now take a look at the other theatre replacing UBs, there already should be one that raises culture output by 25%. Well, I haven't looked this up again, so I'm not 100% sure here yet, but at least I think there is such a UB. +25% culture is exactly what you suggested and that's why I said the UB wouldn't be unique then. Also, I'm pretty sure that the leader(s) of the civs that can build those theatre replacing UBs, aren't creative. Again, I didn't look this up before writing this, but I'd wonder if it would be otherwise. I hope that I made it clear this time, why I decided to have the stats this ways. And again: I have no problem with altering the stats. I was even awaiting these statements before I even uploaded this mod.
I can say for sure, that till the weekend, there will be no update for this mod anyways. Simply because I don't have time to finish it and because at the moment there are no changes. Nitram didn't say anything about updating August the way I suggested after his last post here, so there is nothing new about this topic. I haven't thought about what could be the new stats of the UB yet. Hence no changes. As I would wait with a new version for The Capos units anyways, this would give us enough time to discuss new UB stats. But please stop criticizing it as too weak - this problem is well known now. Please make suggestions for new stats instead.
EDIT: I didn't saw the preview of your knight. Seems like you got the right Saxons
I like it, but I would try to give it a sword to fight with (I like these knights better then those with lances). If you want, I might try to do so by my own via bone transplantation. But of course, I'd need the nif then. 
kochman
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No need to get snippy here, nor to take this personal... it's just constructive criticism aimed to make your mod better. There is nothing personal about it. Simply discussion.
I didn't miss the point at all. I was making wild guesses on assumptions because you asked for specifics on how to fix your creation which your were not specific about to begin with. Bad data in, bad data out.
So, now that I know it replaces the Theatre, which makes more sense, I can give you a more specific answer as to how to make it better:
1) Instead of adding a
% modifier, you should simply modify the actual /turn bonus. So, instead of +10% , make it +5 or +6/turn. Hypothetically, +10% could be LESS than the natural +3/turn the theatre naturally gets in a city unless it is generating at least 30+/turn already. This makes it substantially weaker UB, even weaker than if it was +10% added to a coliseum, for example.2) Instead of replacing dye with wines, why not make wine help in addition to dye?
Those are the two changes I would make, based on it replacing the theatre... It makes sense logically, because costumes/make up/etc are still used extensively in the opera, in addition to the people having drinks between acts.
3) I agree that you should not reduce the improved building speed for CRE leaders... except I don't think you should reduce it at all... you have reduced it from double speed to +10% speed... That is a pretty large reduction, and again makes it weaker than the building it replaces.
These are the specific changes I would make. As is, this UB is potentially worse in several ways than the building it replaces.
No rush on a newer version. I will wait to DL it until you have made whatever corrections you end up making.
cool3a2
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I didn't want to sound snippy. I'm sorry if I did. All I wanted was getting the focus of this discussion away from whether the UB is too weak to what can be done against it. That's why I said you missed the point as it sounded to me that you still try to prove me that the UB is too weak, which I didn't doubt. Also, I didn't want to offend you because you thought that the UB replaces the colossum - that was in-deed my fault and and I didn't want to blame it on you that your conclusions (based on my own fault) were wrong.
Your suggestions make sense. I'll summarize them here:
- +5-6
/ turn- +1
from wine and dyeI could raise the amount of how much the LH boosts building speed of the UB to 20 or maybe even 50%, but not more I'd say. I can remember discussions in other mods threads about the same problem - there would sincerly be other users that would complain about that. Well, if the whole world or at least the whole forum wants me to take back the changes on boosting the building speed, I'd be convinced. In other words: I'm interested in more opinions.
Thanks for your suggestions!
I have an idea!
10%
5 / turn
-1
/ turn (but maybe it is too negative)
1 / turn in the city where it's built
15% boost for
in the city! 
This between you cool3a2, and between kochman starts going to be like between me and The Capo!
10%
5
/ turn-1
/ turn (but maybe it is too negative)1
/ turn in the city where it's built15% boost for
in the city! This between you cool3a2, and between kochman starts going to be like between me and The Capo!
The Capo
godless Heathen
I don't have any issues with Nitram, and I am aware most of the "dust-ups" are miscommunication.
Anyway, I understand this civ is supposed to be Saxony, not the Saxons. So I'm not going to make any Saxon units. I could definitely make some units for Saxony though, you'd just have to give me a little time, I have been pretty busy with RL and after I get my mod's next playtest out I could probably whip those units up in a day or two.
As for the units I posted, I could easily make those as well, they aren't too difficult.
Anyway, I understand this civ is supposed to be Saxony, not the Saxons. So I'm not going to make any Saxon units. I could definitely make some units for Saxony though, you'd just have to give me a little time, I have been pretty busy with RL and after I get my mod's next playtest out I could probably whip those units up in a day or two.
As for the units I posted, I could easily make those as well, they aren't too difficult.
cool3a2
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Just take as much time as you need, The Capo. Also, I'd be happy if you would make one of those units you've suggested for a unique musketman. I believe the Grenadier would look best considering that the following should be the cuirassier:
(cuirassier is already on Bakuels agenda)
If the Grenadier looks too of for a musketman, one could think about using it as UU replacing the musketman. This would explain why it looks off compared to other musketman. Then, we would even have some kind of unique name for the UU: Leibgardist. The cuirassier from above would be great as unique art of the cuirassier, too, I think. Well, I leave this decision to you guys.
(cuirassier is already on Bakuels agenda)
If the Grenadier looks too of for a musketman, one could think about using it as UU replacing the musketman. This would explain why it looks off compared to other musketman. Then, we would even have some kind of unique name for the UU: Leibgardist. The cuirassier from above would be great as unique art of the cuirassier, too, I think. Well, I leave this decision to you guys.
AbsintheRed
Deity
UB:
Cool, you remember wrong in some cases.
Many UBs have double production speed (DPS) with a trait, and often a leader for the civ which has that UB has that trait.
For example, Zulu's Ikhanda (Barracks) has DPS for Agressive leaders, and Shaka is that. In mods other leaders for Zulu (Cetshwayo for example) are Agressive too.
So I don't consider that a problem at all if Augustus has Creative trait and the Opera UB here has DPS for Creative leaders. Every UB has more or less similar strength bonuses, and every trait supposed to be balanced as much as possible. So, if the trait bonus and the UB bonus is for the same building, that's not an issue for me, it just means that the players get's those two bonuses at the same time. Of course it's an advantage, but a very little one
You were thinking of that, actually there are 2 UBs with +25% culture bonus, the Stele (Monument) for Ethiopia and the Pavilion (Theatre) for China, so some other bonus would be good.
I have to admit though, I did not read all the comments in the last page about the suggestions for UB bonuses.
I would definitely keep the DPS for Creative, add some bonus (at about 10%) to culture rate.
But I won't add additional culture, the base 3 is enough what theatre adds. I would try to find a more unique bonus.
EDIT: Nitram's idea sounds good to me for that unique part. +10% GPPs or something like that.
So I would keep all the bonuses theatres have (+3 culture, +1happy/10% culture, +2 artist slots, +1 happy from dyes, DPS for Creative), and add +10% culture and +10% GPP points.
Maybe change the happiness from dyes to happiness from another resource.
This is based on the previous good ideas, and sounds well balanced to me
Cool, you remember wrong in some cases.
Many UBs have double production speed (DPS) with a trait, and often a leader for the civ which has that UB has that trait.
For example, Zulu's Ikhanda (Barracks) has DPS for Agressive leaders, and Shaka is that. In mods other leaders for Zulu (Cetshwayo for example) are Agressive too.
So I don't consider that a problem at all if Augustus has Creative trait and the Opera UB here has DPS for Creative leaders. Every UB has more or less similar strength bonuses, and every trait supposed to be balanced as much as possible. So, if the trait bonus and the UB bonus is for the same building, that's not an issue for me, it just means that the players get's those two bonuses at the same time. Of course it's an advantage, but a very little one
You were thinking of that, actually there are 2 UBs with +25% culture bonus, the Stele (Monument) for Ethiopia and the Pavilion (Theatre) for China, so some other bonus would be good.
I have to admit though, I did not read all the comments in the last page about the suggestions for UB bonuses.
I would definitely keep the DPS for Creative, add some bonus (at about 10%) to culture rate.
But I won't add additional culture, the base 3 is enough what theatre adds. I would try to find a more unique bonus.
EDIT: Nitram's idea sounds good to me for that unique part. +10% GPPs or something like that.
So I would keep all the bonuses theatres have (+3 culture, +1happy/10% culture, +2 artist slots, +1 happy from dyes, DPS for Creative), and add +10% culture and +10% GPP points.
Maybe change the happiness from dyes to happiness from another resource.
This is based on the previous good ideas, and sounds well balanced to me
cool3a2
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Okay, then the production boost of the trait will keep the default value. For me, nitrams second suggestion from his last post sounds best, but that's almost what I've done, besides of the great people advantage. Well, maybe we could add a moral bonus from both, dye and wine, as kochman suggested.
BTW: Nitram, did you gave that neck part a go? You might try it with that of your Columbus, that looks nice, too. Also, you might try to give it a similar 'effect' as you lionheart has where the clothes under the armor can be seen around he neck. But keep Augusts armor, only reshape its 'edge line' near the neck a little.
BTW: Nitram, did you gave that neck part a go? You might try it with that of your Columbus, that looks nice, too. Also, you might try to give it a similar 'effect' as you lionheart has where the clothes under the armor can be seen around he neck. But keep Augusts armor, only reshape its 'edge line' near the neck a little.
cool3a2
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Well, it only looks like that. Take a look at the files I provided you. Include them into civ4 and look at it in the civilopedia. You'll see that the neck part flies around. At the moment, this is inacceptable. Seriously, take a look at it and you'll see what I mean. In a way, you are still right: If the neck part is rigged properly, it might work. But rigging is something I really can't do. I simply don't know what vertex weights to give. So, if you'd rig it properly, the LH would be fine for me as well.
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