C2C Balance Thread

[Acularius]

Maybe a modifier so that the AI stops declaring war on an entity on the other side of the world.
I would rather more wars be sparked by neighbours, even of the same religion. It might induce blobbing, but when playing on the world map I see Asoka declare war on Ghengis (Mongolia) or Atilla (Ukraine), when the Cholas (South India) or Tibet (Tibet. ) would be more viable, and in the Cholas case, more lucrative targets.

At least until the rennaisance-esque technologies when global warfare (Imperialism ho!) is more viable. [Or at least possible, although it will still take a while to do)
I think the furthest most armies would travel away from their nations was the crusades for the longest time, past that, it wasn't viable to invade from England to China. :/
Unless I'm horribly mistaken, but I would like to see the distance from capital maintenance modifier increased by quite a bit. [Maybe certain technologies could decrease this over time?]

Basically I would like border tensions to be on par with the religion thing, or worse, and the way to circumvent would to be actively improving the relations with your neighbour.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Repeating my concern from the units thread (since I'm pretty sure this is actually the right place):

The Organ Gun and Ribauldequin have the same cost, unlocks (Metallurgy, Sulphur and Iron), upgrade tree, movement, % mods against most unit types and even Civilopedia entry. The Organ Gun has 1 First Strike. The Ribauldequin has 5 more power (in the early renaissance/late medieval), 20 vs 15, and 25% more boost vs melee.

The Ribauldequin is potentially available before the Arquebusier, but has 5 more power, a 25% bonus against gunpowder units, and much, much larger bonuses against other unit types. While it doesn't receive defensive bonuses and costs a bit more, its much greater power makes it better in most situations - 25 vs 15 when attacking, 25 vs 15 when defending in open, 25 vs 18.75 when defending in hills, 25 vs 22.5 when defending in forest, 25 vs 26.25 when defending in forested hills. And that's in a Arq vs Rib matchup, the Ribauldequin is even better against mounted, melee and archery units, all of which are very much relevant when it becomes available.

The Organ Gun seems balanced for its era (it beats Arquebusiers in the open field but nowhere else, and rips up mounted, melee and archery units but not invincibly). Why not give the Ribauldequin a First Strike and a second prereq tech - (Naval Cannon? Replaceable Parts?) - so it consistently comes after Arquebusiers and acts relative to the Musketman how the Organ Gun does to the Arquebusier? If its name is a problem, make it a "Field Gun" or a Mitrailleuse, a later version even cited in its Civilopedia entry.

This way there would be a balanced field artillery piece for each gunpowder era and a smoother upgrade chain to the Gatling Gun (which is what these units both upgrade to): Organ Gun (or Ribauldequin, I think these are just two names for the same thing) at 15 and 1 First Strike, matches against Arquebusier at 15 and 1, Mitrailleuse at 20 and 1 vs Musketman at 20, Gatling Gun at 25 and 2 vs Rifleman at 26.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@MoogleEmpMog

Organ Gun and Ribauldequin have diffrent values now.

Organ Gun = 250
Ribauldequin = 260
Gating Gun = 270
Machine Gun = 280

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

@MoogleEmpMog

Organ Gun and Ribauldequin have diffrent values now.

10 more hammers isn't much to pay for the difference between fighting at a mild disadvantage in most situations at being completely dominant for the era.

I don't understand why you want to keep these two at the same tech level. The real-world differences between them are mild (and the Organ Gun is, I believe, the better of the two historically, firing slightly faster - although neither type ended up being especially useful), there's a gap in the field artillery between them and Gatling Guns, and the Ribauldequin is massively more powerful than any non-hero unit that shares its time period.

Even leaving aside its bonuses vs. every non-siege unit available at the time, it's 20 power vs 15 power when compared to an organ gun or arquebusier (33% more power) but even at 260 hammers to 185 hammers (28% more hammers), and in late medieval/early renaissance. It does have tons of bonuses, though, and they push it up to the point where it might as well be a hero unit... except that it's spammable. I generally find I can get at least as much XP on a siege unit as on a gunpowder unit, so it isn't losing out in that respect.

Even at 260 it's also considerably cheaper than a musketman, despite musketmen coming much later and the ribauldequin fighting more than evenly against them in quite a few circumstances (any time it's an attacker, the fight is in the open, or going up against mounted units, for instance).

It just seems really strange to me to have this (historically not all that effective) artillery piece be the main combat unit for a renaissance army, and at Metallurgy that's what it amounts to. In every other era, siege units are primarily city defense lowering/collateral damage causing units and infantry (melee and then gunpowder) serve as the main combat unit, but the ribauldequin completely trumps one generation of infantry and competes favorably with the next.

About the only reason I've found not to make them the mainstay of an army is that their promotions will spend time on a defense-only Machine Gun if the game makes it to late Industrial/early Modern.

Looking at those costs, the gatling gun also seems bizarrely cheap. Unless all of these are supposed to be "Can Only Defend," like the Machine Gun?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@MoogleEmpMog

See the unit thread for a new update I just posted.

 

[zeinul]

can someone make chivalry to be able to flank all siege units instead of some specific ones. most of them have canon flanking, but ai almost never builds canons. and this bonus becomes useless.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

@MoogleEmpMog

See the unit thread for a new update I just posted.

Cool.

The new Ribauldequin is probably overcosted if it Can Only Defend, but I understand why you went that way when this tree upgrades to the Machine Gun. The later ones are fine, though. In any case, I think that probably reflects their actual battlefield role (and the fact that role was relatively small) much better, too.

Even nerfed and with Can Only Defend, they serve a very important purpose - they're the trigger to start building Arquebusiers. Until I noticed the old power 20 Ribauldequin, I tended to keep building melee units until Musketmen and sometimes even longer to leverage the melee units' better XP and free promotions. But those units will hit even a power 15 Ribauldequin and get slaughtered by its +75% vs Melee - it encourages the use of actual renaissance infantry. The old one encouraged the use of Ribauldequins.

This change may act as a stealth buff to Intolerant because the Fanatic is the best non-national, non-religion-specific melee unit. While still at a disadvantage against the power 15 Ribauldequin, it's not at a hopeless disadvantage, whereas it was against the power 20 version (which could attack besides). I tend to think Intolerant is weak, so this is a good side effect.

can someone make chivalry to be able to flank all siege units instead of some specific ones. most of them have canon flanking, but ai almost never builds canons. and this bonus becomes useless.

I wouldn't say ALL siege units, because the Machine Gun is a siege unit and the way it ends the battlefield utility of the mounted unit type is both historically accurate and a good gameplay mechanic.

It would be nice to see mounted units, especially Curassiers and Cavalry, able to flank the Ribauldequin line and the light artillery like the Falconet, though. In particular, I like the interaction of the Ribauldequin line, with their +50% against mounted and good strength, being flanked and thus taking damage/being destroyed, but inflicting grievous casualties in the process. It makes the decision to attack them with cavalry costly but effective.

 

[Sgtslick]

@MoogleEmpMog good feedback mate

 

[Hydromancerx]

With the new Civics I actually had to lower the science slider. I have not done that in awhile. Great job in dealing with the over abundance of gold!

 

[ls612]

With the new Civics I actually had to lower the science slider. I have not done that in awhile. Great job in dealing with the over abundance of gold!

Man, I can't wait to see what JosEPh thinks of the new civics then.

 

[Vokarya]

With the new Civics I actually had to lower the science slider. I have not done that in awhile. Great job in dealing with the over abundance of gold!

Me too. The Mercenaries civic really takes a chunk out of gold, but +6 XP per new unit is extremely tempting. Of course, I like to run 4 garrison units/city plus 30+ field armies, so I wind up with huge numbers of troops in the field.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Man, I can't wait to see what JosEPh thinks of the new civics then.

How's this for short and not so sweet? It suxs.

The "Too Much Gold Crowd" slipped one in and sucker punched the mod.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

How's this for short and not so sweet? It suxs.

The "Too Much Gold Crowd" slipped one in and sucker punched the mod.

JosEPh

Don't look at me.

 

[BlueGenie]

How's this for short and not so sweet? It suxs.

The "Too Much Gold Crowd" slipped one in and sucker punched the mod.

JosEPh

Weird. In my try with them I'm getting more gold than usual, not less.
TBH I'm running Barter still in the start of Classic Era but that's due to limiting myself to No Foreign Trade Routes (to limit my own progress) which also means No Inflation.
That should not account for all of the increased income I have.

Prehistory and Ancient until getting Mining and all the techs giving small + buildings did cut back a bit in my gold income though not all that much. After Mining and Metals currency (and Currency and Coinage currency) gold has not really been an issue.
I currently have 3450 in costs every turn but am making in excess of 4200 per turn, and that's not by doing all I can to get gold flowing. Several cities have not even started on going for gold production yet.

The AI seems to think the same. I have disabled the limit on Cities because I like to run Monarchy and I have 31 cities spread over a decently large area (with Forbidden Palace in a strategic position to reduce maintenance). The two AI see with most cities have 64 (69 before I took 5 of them) and 57 cities, with 2x and 3x the army I have, and are still teching high.

So if I'm part of that "Too Much Gold Crowd" then I respectfully both disagree and also point out that it was not "us" that got the new civics into the game.

Cheers

 

[ls612]

How's this for short and not so sweet? It suxs.

The "Too Much Gold Crowd" slipped one in and sucker punched the mod.

JosEPh

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate what the 'good' civics are.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@ls612,

You know you bait me in with statements like

Man, I can't wait to see what JosEPh thinks of the new civics then.

.

And then when I comment I get *itchslapped for even saying anything.

@BG,
I don't recall mentioning your name???

My game was started Before the New Civics was put in and it was 2100BC Classical Era when they got added. I went from -4 Gold/turn to -279 gold/turn. And this was with Hydro and other's advice to build the Harbor/river/tradepost lines cause having "high" crime gives you more gold! (NOT!) And now bldgs that never gave -x/food are giving just that. is now rampant and every city has 1 to 4 citizens . Yup! It's Loverly! And I only have 11 cities. And have not even met a AI yet too boot. Well except for the pesky Barb on the next Island that hit my outpost city with a SoD that had 40 units in it. Crushed my 3 pop city with 6 defenders.

So all in all I can tough this one out or start a new one.

Oh and Because I added in all the +5 Crime giving buildings like Barracks, River Port, Trading post, etc., I Most Definately Can Not afford to build any of the research bldg lines. SoS, Library, Math Acad., ets are No Goes. Unless of course if I want to have all my cities go On Strile and lose every worker and Mil unit. But that won't cover the Now Expanded city Maintenance and Civic Upkeep costs either.

Yes sirree! It's Fun time in the Empire tonight, Burn baby Burn!

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

@ls612,

You know you bait me in with statements like .

And then when I comment I get *itchslapped for even saying anything.

I just can't help myself. In all seriousness though, I at least appreciate your input on these issues. What Civics are you using in your current game? What changes to those civics killed the gold situation for you? Have you checked out any other civic options, particularily the new ones? I think that these new civics mean that peoples' strategies need to adjust, so as hard as it is, change may be in for your optimal civic setup.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The new civics have stopped me playing with Slavery on all the time. I have only noticed a small decrease in gold and I do build all the research line of buildings. I don't build the military ones anywhere except in my military city where you need high crime so you can build them.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>

Have you checked out any other civic options, particularily the new ones? I think that these new civics mean that peoples' strategies need to adjust, so as hard as it is, change may be in for your optimal civic setup.

If I started the game with the Old Civic set, and then at 2100BC thru the SVN get switched to the New Civic Set, and The Game does the initial switch for you, Why would I Not check out all the new ones? Of course I did.

...so as hard as it is, change may be in for your optimal civic setup.

They're ALL new! So How can I know what is Optimal? That takes play time.

What I'd really like to know is Who decided and Why they decided that ever point of pop is now generating +1 :Yuck: There are not enough +health bldgs available up thru the Classical Era from Preh era to counter it. It's heavy handed.

And the Welfare Civics: Charity is now -2% Gold, Church is now -4% Gold, etc, etc... Crimenitly!

Dancing Hoskuld wrote: The new civics have stopped me playing with Slavery on all the time.

What about everyone else that loves that Horrible Civic?

Maintenance, Civics, and Inflation costs have been increased too. (see screenie)

Also the Treasury and gold/turn in the top left corner of the main screen is screwed up. I'm running -177 gold/turn at 25% Research. Yet my Treasury keeps increasing???

Turns are now taking 51 seconds to process at Classical Era 510BC on Epic with Only 7AI but Barb World is On. And I have not even met an AI neighbor yet. (Island Map with extra Islands and many tiny islands, low sea level)

So much for balance.

I'll keep plugging along till it breaks, cause I seriously think it's going to.

And I have not started to use Viewports yet either.

JosEPh

 

[T C]

Hmmmm, these new civics sound interesting. I haven't had a chance to play much recently (the wife is, how can I say, not the biggest fan of civ ), but I hope I can sneak in a game tomorrow.