C2C Balance Thread

[ls612]

@JosEPh:

I am confused as heck as to why you are the only one having an incredibly hard time with gold. I have a feeling that it has to do with gamespeed, but I've been playing a game on Epic for a while and I'm in the Medieval era with few gold issues myself. I did however lose a lot of gold when I recalculated with the new civics, but I was still a bit in the green, so I figured that was good. Do you have the Forbidden Palace built by any chance?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

@JosEPh:

I am confused as heck as to why you are the only one having an incredibly hard time with gold. I have a feeling that it has to do with gamespeed, but I've been playing a game on Epic for a while and I'm in the Medieval era with few gold issues myself. I did however lose a lot of gold when I recalculated with the new civics, but I was still a bit in the green, so I figured that was good. Do you have the Forbidden Palace built by any chance?

Isn't it a # of cities issue? How many did you have?

With the new build queues I'm going to try a mega-expansive game next time. I'm confused as heck how JosEPh could STAND to eXpand the way he did without that. O_o It seems like every turn would take hours. Hopefully I'll be able to chip in a very similar experience.

@JosEPh: I'd really like to try to duplicate your settings. IIRC from reading other threads you play on Huge maps, Epic speed, Noble difficulty, 9 AIs? What mapscript?

 

[ls612]

Isn't it a # of cities issue? How many did you have?

With the new build queues I'm going to try a mega-expansive game next time. I'm confused as heck how JosEPh could STAND to eXpand the way he did without that. O_o It seems like every turn would take hours. Hopefully I'll be able to chip in a very similar experience.

@JosEPh: I'd really like to try to duplicate your settings. IIRC from reading other threads you play on Huge maps, Epic speed, Noble difficulty, 9 AIs? What mapscript?

He has city limits and REV off, so that wouldn't be as big of an issue. His inflation is through the roof, but I can't find a good explanation for that looking at the code, and my inflation situation has been much more managable on a similar game. IIRC JosEPh plays on Archipeligo maps.

 

[Koshling]

He has city limits and REV off, so that wouldn't be as big of an issue. His inflation is through the roof, but I can't find a good explanation for that looking at the code, and my inflation situation has been much more managable on a similar game. IIRC JosEPh plays on Archipeligo maps.

It could still be a major issue - city maintenance costs from #cities is not a REV feature.

 

[ls612]

It could still be a major issue - city maintenance costs from #cities is not a REV feature.

Maybe having the City Limits option off should reduce city maintenence. What function handles that, it might be something I could do? I still think though that the primary function of JosEPh's Gold problems are Inflation.

@JosEPh:

Do you hurry many buildings/units generally in your playstyle?

 

[Koshling]

Maybe having the City Limits option off should reduce city maintenence. What function handles that, it might be something I could do? I still think though that the primary function of JosEPh's Gold problems are Inflation.

@JosEPh:

Do you hurry many buildings/units generally in your playstyle?

No, definately not. That would be revising original BtS rules (which does have maintenance from city count, and no city limits). If anything that would be a seperate option.

 

[ls612]

No, definately not. That would be revising original BtS rules (which does have maintenance from city count, and no city limits). If anything that would be a seperate option.

OK, that's fine. I do think though that the Inflation from hurrying things should be removed, it is counter-intuitive and it's effects won't kill you until well after you do it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I don't hurry build unless I'm about have a city overrun by an invading force and then it would either be a defensive boosting building or a mil unit.

Iirc in the previous screen shot it shows I had 11 cities at that time.

And because of the time frame Classical Era on this type map I have not met another AI yet except the Barbs. So the only Trade I have is intra Empire.

This game is on a Huge Islands Map (extra islands, many tiny islands and low sea level), 7 or 8 AI, Noble level and is either on Epic or Normal speed. I've posted this all before. The only thing I did different this time was to turn On Barb World to give SO some input on it.

If I use the Re calc (Ctrl/Shift/T) it gets even weirder. Some of the most recent changes to calculations for trade, city maint., Civics upkeep, Inflation, and other things have really turned things upside down and inside out. After that screen shot I updated to SVN v 3415. Upon reloading the game and doing the recalc after the prompt the -179 gold went to -547 gold/turn.

This new screen shot shows the current finance screen. And I'm up to 17 cities, 20% research and losing -340+gold/turn.

And while all this is going on sometimes my treasury Increases even with a -xxx/turn. I actually at one point between these 2 screen shots had a treasury of 7500+. As you can see now it's back down to 3500+. And the - gold levels ranged from a low of -200 to a level of -800 when I boosted research level to 70% to finish Iron working.

Switching to the New Civics during a game in Classical Era has proven to be disastrous. Just like the game I had when Crime was introduced. But I'll keep playing until the AI shows up with a massive army and wipes me out.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

I don't hurry build unless I'm about have a city overrun by an invading force and then it would either be a defensive boosting building or a mil unit.

Iirc in the previous screen shot it shows I had 11 cities at that time.

And because of the time frame Classical Era on this type map I have not met another AI yet except the Barbs. So the only Trade I have is intra Empire.

This game is on a Huge Islands Map (extra islands, many tiny islands and low sea level), 7 or 8 AI, Noble level and is either on Epic or Normal speed. I've posted this all before. The only thing I did different this time was to turn On Barb World to give SO some input on it.

If I use the Re calc (Ctrl/Shift/T) it gets even weirder. Some of the most recent changes to calculations for trade, city maint., Civics upkeep, Inflation, and other things have really turned things upside down and inside out. After that screen shot I updated to SVN v 3415. Upon reloading the game and doing the recalc after the prompt the -179 gold went to -547 gold/turn.

This new screen shot shows the current finance screen. And I'm up to 17 cities, 20% research and losing -340+gold/turn.

And while all this is going on sometimes my treasury Increases even with a -xxx/turn. I actually at one point between these 2 screen shots had a treasury of 7500+. As you can see now it's back down to 3500+. And the - gold levels ranged from a low of -200 to a level of -800 when I boosted research level to 70% to finish Iron working.

Switching to the New Civics during a game in Classical Era has proven to be disastrous. Just like the game I had when Crime was introduced. But I'll keep playing until the AI shows up with a massive army and wipes me out.

JosEPh

Well, Hurrying things more than once in a great while will cause lots of inflation in the long run (looks like what you have to a certain extent). I think that that should be removed, and know which three lines of C++ would need to be deleted for that to happen, but I'll wait and see what objections (if any) come up to that plan. That won't help your game, which I think got screwed due to the new civics.

 

[Koshling]

Well, Hurrying things more than once in a great while will cause lots of inflation in the long run (looks like what you have to a certain extent). I think that that should be removed, and know which three lines of C++ would need to be deleted for that to happen, but I'll wait and see what objections (if any) come up to that plan. That won't help your game, which I think got screwed due to the new civics.

I disagree. The inflation mechanic should be fixed though, so it doesn't screw you forever (I'm still sticking to my proposal for the two moving avergaes approach in the inflation thread)

 

[ls612]

I disagree. The inflation mechanic should be fixed though, so it doesn't screw you forever (I'm still sticking to my proposal for the two moving avergaes approach in the inflation thread)

OK, in the mean time I changed it so that hurrying doesn't affect inflation, until you implement a more complete fix.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well, Hurrying things more than once in a great while will cause lots of inflation in the long run (looks like what you have to a certain extent). I think that that should be removed, and know which three lines of C++ would need to be deleted for that to happen, but I'll wait and see what objections (if any) come up to that plan. That won't help your game, which I think got screwed due to the new civics.

Actually ls612 the only time I've used a hurry in this game was when the 40+ Barb SoD destroyed my outpost city on it's island. But yes, changing to the New Civics has wreaked it's havoc on my game. But I'm still gonna play it till it crashes. And I'm almost there. even at 0% for research I'm losing 200+gold/turn and there are no new gold producing Bldgs left in most of my cities. I'm trying to research techs that will help in that dept. But it's taking longer and longer to research them. A 2500+ gold treasury losing 200+ gold/turn doesn't give me much leeway. Another 12-15 turns and I'll be bankrupt. And inflation is now up to 900+ and City Maint is 800+. Civic upkeep 576/turn. All 3 are too high. But then all the uber Deity and above level players love this kind of stuff. So who am I to complain.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Build Shinto Temples they reduce maintenance.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Too late I can't get Shinto.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well, Hurrying things more than once in a great while will cause lots of inflation in the long run (looks like what you have to a certain extent). I think that that should be removed, and know which three lines of C++ would need to be deleted for that to happen, but I'll wait and see what objections (if any) come up to that plan. That won't help your game, which I think got screwed due to the new civics.

Rather than deleting said lines, I'd suggest commenting them out so that we can still see how the old method was established.

 

[ls612]

Rather than deleting said lines, I'd suggest commenting them out so that we can still see how the old method was established.

Sure, I can go and do that.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@ls612,
Be Warned! I'm an official retiree today!

So my input in this thread "may" go up as I have a bit more time than before.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

@ls612,
Be Warned! I'm an official retiree today!

So my input in this thread "may" go up as I have a bit more time than before.

JosEPh

Good for you.

Since you have the time, could you try something please? Could you take your last savegame before the civic changes (if you still have it), and turn off the TREAT_NEGATIVE_GOLD_AS_MAINTENENCE option in the GlobalDefines, then do a modifier recalc?

Also, I would recommend using that save and trying out several combinations of civics to see what they do to your situation, then reloading. Normally that could be considered an exploit, but given the vast changes to the civics I think it makes sense to experiment a bit to find the most optimal combination.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@ls612,
Be Warned! I'm an official retiree today!

So my input in this thread "may" go up as I have a bit more time than before.

JosEPh

It doesn't happen that way, retiree's have less time than workers to play Civ. I am thinking of getting a job so I can play more. The lack of time gets worse as your friends and family retire also, tehy think you have nothing better to do than talk to them all day.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Good for you.

Since you have the time, could you try something please? Could you take your last savegame before the civic changes (if you still have it), and turn off the TREAT_NEGATIVE_GOLD_AS_MAINTENENCE option in the GlobalDefines, then do a modifier recalc?

Also, I would recommend using that save and trying out several combinations of civics to see what they do to your situation, then reloading. Normally that could be considered an exploit, but given the vast changes to the civics I think it makes sense to experiment a bit to find the most optimal combination.

I just have not had the time yet to do this. The wife's Father passed away Thursday night and Funeral preparations are exhausting. I'll see what I can dig up after mid week when everything starts to calm down.

JosEPh