C2C Balance Thread

[DRJ]

Once my alter ego is finished compiling a list of differences across these three settings I'll post something more about it. Don't hold your breaths though, he's very lazy and might never get around to it.

Now that's the spirit!

I agree to your conclusions and think they point out the way to go in regards of balancing.

 

[Koshling]

Basically to hold Crime done. Otherwise I'd be building them all the time like I did before Crime was introduced. I don't want another game where by 1300AD my Crime level is causing Wild fluctuations in my gold/turn.

Current Civics: Republic, Patrician, Prolet, Guilds, Banditry, Stae Ch., Church, Landfills, Open Borders, Religiuos Trng., Interpreter, Ag Guilds. These add up to 799 Gold per turn and as I posted earlier 1 is No upkeep, 5 are low and 6 are Medium. I would like to use Bureaucracy but it is High Upkeep.

@AIAndy, I'll post the save game this evening.

JosEPh

You're over-reacting to their crime then. I have buil them everywhere (along with just town watch, and courthouse as anti-crime) and by late midle ages the net benefits far outweighed the problems the crime caused me. Crime at levels up to 200-250 ish is entirely manageable by the looks of things - for sure it has some bad effects, but not enough to render buildings like these a net bad investment.

One issue (that I don't think is directly addressable, but may cause peopel to perceive things from a very short-term perspective) is that the hover texts for buildings only gives their immediate direct impacts, not their eventual indirect (via crime change) impacts. Thus the anti-crime buildings tend to look really bad in the hover text (lots of negative gold etc.), whereas in reality they can have quite the opposite effect, though it may take a while for them to build up their positive impact as they progressively act to reduce crime. Also, the actual effect obviously depnds on the context of the city they are built into (i.e. - its crime rate and trend)

 

[Hanny]

In Eternity at Monarch Lvl, 325 turns ingmame i have lost 4 clubmen, 2 stonethrower, 1 slinger, ( have 3 clubman and a slinger left) while inflicting 2 neanderthal and 37 Animal losses.

Is this a similar number to what your seeing on Gem/random maps?. With the changes from V21 to V22, i was intrested in unit density in game as a result from the changes.

Have you changed the number of units you like to have early game, because of the changes?.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You're over-reacting to their crime then. I have buil them everywhere (along with just town watch, and courthouse as anti-crime) and by late midle ages the net benefits far outweighed the problems the crime caused me. Crime at levels up to 200-250 ish is entirely manageable by the looks of things - for sure it has some bad effects, but not enough to render buildings like these a net bad investment.

One issue (that I don't think is directly addressable, but may cause peopel to perceive things from a very short-term perspective) is that the hover texts for buildings only gives their immediate direct impacts, not their eventual indirect (via crime change) impacts. Thus the anti-crime buildings tend to look really bad in the hover text (lots of negative gold etc.), whereas in reality they can have quite the opposite effect, though it may take a while for them to build up their positive impact as they progressively act to reduce crime. Also, the actual effect obviously depnds on the context of the city they are built into (i.e. - its crime rate and trend)

Overreacting? Meh? Cautious? Yes. I build Town Watches and Courthouses in every city. I don't build Crosses or Gallows....yet. But the payoff is small from what I'm seeing for these Anti crime bldgs. Even moreso in the light of all the crime that is added by building again for ex. the Harbor/river chains.

Why is it necessary for a Library that may only give 5 beakers cost 11+ gold? What was the determining factor in deciding that for every beaker of research gained from a building (in the Research and associated chains) should have a cost ratio of More than 2 to 1? I feel this is too steep a price. There are other chains that have similar bad ratios, artesian well for ex. 3 food for 4 gold, too high a maintenance cost for me.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Playing with Rev on I am getting revolutions from crime before I can even build the first anti crime building Chief's Hut! I will see if I still have a save game to illustrate.

 

[Koshling]

Playing with Rev on I am getting revolutions from crime before I can even build the first anti crime building Chief's Hut! I will see if I still have a save game to illustrate.

That makes no sense because REV doesn't LOOK at crime! If crime is to blame it must be via some intermediary quantity on a crime-generated building...

 

[Koshling]

Overreacting? Meh? Cautious? Yes. I build Town Watches and Courthouses in every city. I don't build Crosses or Gallows....yet. But the payoff is small from what I'm seeing for these Anti crime bldgs. Even moreso in the light of all the crime that is added by building again for ex. the Harbor/river chains.

Why is it necessary for a Library that may only give 5 beakers cost 11+ gold? What was the determining factor in deciding that for every beaker of research gained from a building (in the Research and associated chains) should have a cost ratio of More than 2 to 1? I feel this is too steep a price. There are other chains that have similar bad ratios, artesian well for ex. 3 food for 4 gold, too high a maintenance cost for me.

JosEPh

Libraries (and most research buildings) have a 1-1 ratio of cost to research. The ACTUALs dispalyed are the net effect with any modifiers, so building libraries in cities with a lot of gold modifiers has a net effect that isn't useful (in most cases - it's not that the libraries COST you more than -5 per turn, it's that the lost opportunity cost of having 5 base income taken off before modifiers results in a larger net effect in cities with high gold multipliers). You probably need to specialize your cities more than you have in the past, so that you keep commerce centers (for gold) clear of research buildings, and concentrate your research centers elsewhere.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

That makes no sense because REV doesn't LOOK at crime! If crime is to blame it must be via some intermediary quantity on a crime-generated building...

It is the amount of unhappiness and loss of income caused by crime buildings that affect rev.

 

[ls612]

@Joseph: I don't think my changes were supposed to rescue your old savegame, any inflation that was already there will remain unfortunately.

To try my new numbers, you'll need to start a new game.

 

[Koshling]

It is the amount of unhappiness and loss of income caused by crime buildings that affect rev.

How did you manage to generate any signficant level of crime so early on? Did you build a big crime producing building away from your palace? Even not building anything I have found crime to be entirely managable until the middle ages so far (but I didn't build the early elective build crime buodings except in my caopital where the palace counteracts them). Level up to about 150 or so seem fairly readily copeable with, and I haven't found levels going higher than that in the early game persoanlly.

 

[strategyonly]

I have built every single building in every city i have, and my highest crime in one of the cities is on 170, i have just reached the Classical Era?? Plus i have alot of stuff checked ON, ie: Rev On, Raging Barbs On, Flexi Diff On, Barb Civs On, etc etc. . ..

Only problem i am having is i have to keep my slider to 0 or alittle in the green for , only if i have Lesser Wealth in each and every city on also??

 

[ls612]

I have built every single building in every city i have, and my highest crime in one of the cities is on 170, i have just reached the Classical Era?? Plus i have alot of stuff checked ON, ie: Rev On, Raging Barbs On, Flexi Diff On, Barb Civs On, etc etc. . ..

Only problem i am having is i have to keep my slider to 0 or alittle in the green for , only if i have Lesser Wealth in each and every city on also??

Are you playing Epic? If so, try starting a new game with the new, more reasonable inflation. That should help the horrendous Gold situation on Epic gamespeed.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Libraries (and most research buildings) have a 1-1 ratio of cost to research. The ACTUALs dispalyed are the net effect with any modifiers, so building libraries in cities with a lot of gold modifiers has a net effect that isn't useful (in most cases - it's not that the libraries COST you more than -5 per turn, it's that the lost opportunity cost of having 5 base income taken off before modifiers results in a larger net effect in cities with high gold multipliers). You probably need to specialize your cities more than you have in the past, so that you keep commerce centers (for gold) clear of research buildings, and concentrate your research centers elsewhere.

I don't play that way. I do not specifically specialize any of my cities. I've stated this before. I build in each city what I deem it needs at that time. I don't want to be forced into specialization. No more than I want to be forced to play on Snail or slower. Or to play with Rev On.

Why does everyone have to play the same way? This is why I protest so much.

@AIAndy,
Per request save of 1750AD attached.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Joseph: I don't think my changes were supposed to rescue your old savegame, any inflation that was already there will remain unfortunately.

To try my new numbers, you'll need to start a new game.

10-4. I'll start a new one. <sigh>

Just another decent game down the tubes again is all. It takes days and weeks to get a game to 1700 AD even on Epic.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

Are you playing Epic? If so, try starting a new game with the new, more reasonable inflation. That should help the horrendous Gold situation on Epic gamespeed.

Nope Snail

 

[Koshling]

I have built every single building in every city i have, and my highest crime in one of the cities is on 170, i have just reached the Classical Era?? Plus i have alot of stuff checked ON, ie: Rev On, Raging Barbs On, Flexi Diff On, Barb Civs On, etc etc. . ..

Only problem i am having is i have to keep my slider to 0 or alittle in the green for , only if i have Lesser Wealth in each and every city on also??

Your point being it seems ok, or it doesn't seem ok? The telling phrase here is 'I have built every single building in every city i have'. Don't. Spamming everything regardless of the conditions of the city doesn't work.

 

[Hanny]

In Eternity at Monarch Lvl, 325 turns ingmame i have lost 4 clubmen, 2 stonethrower, 1 slinger, ( have 3 clubman and a slinger left) while inflicting 2 neanderthal and 37 Animal losses.

Is this a similar number to what your seeing on Gem/random maps?. With the changes from V21 to V22, i was intrested in unit density in game as a result from the changes.

Have you changed the number of units you like to have early game, because of the changes?.

Eternity speed Monarch Difficulty, clubman in V21 took 17 turns to produce, in v22 with same resources, its 24 turns, difference is a 40% increase to Human unit costs, while AI unit cost stayed the same.

 

[Hydromancerx]

No more than I want to be forced to play on Snail or slower.

The game is better balanced on Snail. Why don't you want to play on snail speed?

Would it help if we renamed it "Super Awesome Speed"?

 

[BlueGenie]

Eternity speed Monarch Difficulty, clubman in V21 took 17 turns to produce, in v22 with same resources, its 24 turns, difference is a 40% increase to Human unit costs, while AI unit cost stayed the same.

Wait, what?
As far as I know ls612 changed the underlying modifiers for the game speed but did not tinker with the handicap parts of it.

Old line in speed info:
<iTrainPercent>275</iTrainPercent>
New line in speed info:
<iTrainPercent>475</iTrainPercent>
This makes it take longer to build units, for everyone, including the AI.

Old Handicap player and AI modifiers for units:
Player: <iUnitCostPercent>110</iUnitCostPercent>
AI: <iAITrainPercent>90</iAITrainPercent>
New Handicap player and AI modifiers for units:
Player: <iUnitCostPercent>110</iUnitCostPercent>
AI: <iAITrainPercent>90</iAITrainPercent>
No change for the difficulty you're at. In fact no changes to the difficulty settings for building or training at all.

Cheers

 

[ls612]

The game is better balanced on Snail. Why don't you want to play on snail speed?

Would it help if we renamed it "Super Awesome Speed"?

One of my goals for V23 is to balance Epic and Marathon, similar to how I balanced Snail and Eternity last version, for those who like shorter games. I think my inflation changes helped it somewhat, but I'll wait for Joseph's feedback and see.