C2C Balance Thread

[Hydromancerx]

@JosEPh_II

Go into civpedia or even the in game tech tree. That's what I have to do when planning out new techs. I do not have some "magic tool" that you don't. If you want it changed do the work and write out what you want changed so it can be reviewed/considered.

How do you think we did all the non-RoM/AND techs? They all had to be planned out before the code was even written up. And most of the techs are added by strategyonly, not me. Which means any new techs that get added have to be planned out and written up for strategyonly in advance (and then double checked once in game).

I have to either sort though the civpedia or make a new dummy game and sort thought the tech tree to see what highlights when I click on a tech. Prehistoric and Galactic were hell to do for both me and strategyonly.

The tech tree I have in my signature is so I can look up the locations of the techs quickly (X and Y) so I can accurately tell strategyonly where to put the tech on the tree. All connections are done in game to figure out what tech requires what tech.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Thank you for the info. I was beginning to figure out there is no Master worksheet. I will bother you no more on the subject.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

@Koshling: Assuming it's not too much work, would you be willing to add the 'start with an extra settler' gameoption that JosePH requested to the SVN? I think that it is great for those of us (which sometimes includes myself) who get tired of the repetition in the Prehistoric era and like to rush.

Absolutely. Soon as I am out of the current development hole with phase 2 of the pathing engine (a few days)

 

[AIAndy]

How would that work with Divine Prophets, Limited Religions, and Choose Religion options?

Cheers

My idea was that you build a prophet unit that gathers the spirituality and then founds the religion of your choice at the city of your choice (for which you have the tech). So it is related to Divine Prophets but not compatible. Limited Religions would work with that as it would just restrict the amount you can found.

 

[Koshling]

How would that work with Divine Prophets, Limited Religions, and Choose Religion options?

Cheers

It would be a (game option) alternative to divine prophets and probably also preclude limitted religions (i.e. - an alternative to). I don't see a problem visa vi choose religions - I think it works fine with 'choose religions' - basically with this in force, once your spirituality reaches the necessary level you get to choose from those you have the tech for that have not yet been founded. Without it you get one of the eligible ones randomly.

Personally I think AIAndy's suggestion is a much neater way to solve the same issues that most of these game options were added for AND the tech clustering issue all at once. We could also give religions a <preReqProperty> tag so that different religions could require different amounts of spirtuality too (that way (with choose religions on) you can choose to found a 'cheap' religion earlier or try to save up for a more advanced one, which adds another twist).

 

[strategyonly]

It would be a (game option) alternative to divine prophets and probably also preclude limited religions (i.e. - an alternative to). I don't see a problem visa vi choose religions - I think it works fine with 'choose religions' - basically with this in force, once your spirituality reaches the necessary level you get to choose from those you have the tech for that have not yet been founded. Without it you get one of the eligible ones randomly.

Personally I think AIAndy's suggestion is a much neater way to solve the same issues that most of these game options were added for AND the tech clustering issue all at once. We could also give religions a <preReqProperty> tag so that different religions could require different amounts of spirituality too (that way (with choose religions on) you can choose to found a 'cheap' religion earlier or try to save up for a more advanced one, which adds another twist).

I like these ideas also, but also is there a way that the (Thunderbrd) Divine Prophets, could work better or even take it and make it a part of a combined Limited Religions/Choose Religions realm? For me i used to use DP but it just gave way too many G.Prophets when you used it, rather than earning them.

If i had my choice i'd rather see DP gone???

 

[Koshling]

I like these ideas also, but also is there a way that the (Thunderbrd) Divine Prophets, could work better or even take it and make it a part of a combined Limited Religions/Choose Religions realm? For me i used to use DP but it just gave way too many G.Prophets when you used it, rather than earning them.

If i had my choice i'd rather see DP gone???

I agree, that this would be a better replacement for DP, and solve a lot of the issues. However, I don't think we should just eliminate DP (as a game option) until AFTER this has been implemented and play tested, and people have provided feedback (especially those that currently use DP)

 

[BlueGenie]

The only reason DP was of any use, for me anyway, was that one got to chose where you wanted the Holy City. With a Spirituality Property that might be arranged anyway so DP would become obsolete.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

I used it and still do from time to time. But I wouldn't be hurt or upset to see it changed and/or eliminated. I prefer the Multiple Religion Option. In it you have to build Culture to get your GPs, which is more inline with original CIV IV game play.

I thought DP was DH's baby? It's really T-Bird's?

Being able to choose the location of a Holy city no matter what religion Option used would be super good in may way of thinking. If at all possible.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

Being able to choose the location of a Holy city no matter what religion Option used would be super good in may way of thinking. If at all possible.

Agree with this statement 100%

 

[Koshling]

Agree with this statement 100%

As a game option maybe. But personally I think it's a bit o/p - you'd never see religious centers anywhere but in the really safe home areas (so they wouldn't be there to fight over in peripheral regions), and they'd tend to get stacked into one city except where prevented by limitted religions or something, which makes for an over-powerful city too easily obtained.

Perosnally I like Blue Genie's property-based idea, whereby you can INDIRECTLY influence the positioning by arranging for more spirituality in certain cities. It then get placed (still randomly) weighted by each city's spirituality, so its more LIKELY to arise in a high spirituality city. Placement of a holy shrine in this way then drains an amount of spirituality available in that city (kinda like GP points). Might be that this implies two slightl separte uses of the property - sourced by buildings to attach to the city, with a diffusion to the owning player. The player total is what determines whetehr you can found the religion in question (and is drained by doing so by that religions spirituality value). The city total is what weights the placement decision, and is drained by placement.

 

[ls612]

As a game option maybe. But personally I think it's a bit o/p - you'd never see religious centers anywhere but in the really safe home areas (so they wouldn't be there to fight over in peripheral regions), and they'd tend to get stacked into one city except where prevented by limitted religions or something, which makes for an over-powerful city too easily obtained.

Perosnally I like Blue Genie's property-based idea, whereby you can INDIRECTLY influence the positioning by arranging for more spirituality in certain cities. It then get placed (still randomly) weighted by each city's spirituality, so its more LIKELY to arise in a high spirituality city. Placement of a holy shrine in this way then drains an amount of spirituality available in that city (kinda like GP points). Might be that this implies two slightl separte uses of the property - sourced by buildings to attach to the city, with a diffusion to the owning player. The player total is what determines whetehr you can found the religion in question (and is drained by doing so by that religions spirituality value). The city total is what weights the placement decision, and is drained by placement.

And, the property could be used for other religious things, such as religious building happiness, Inqusitions, and a whole range of other things.

That would be a lot of work though, probably more than Crime was.

 

[BlueGenie]

As an addition to that, to not take away but reduce the chance of multiple religions and Holy Cities the property is influenced negatively by the presence of a Holy City, Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals, Religious Wonders, Civics like Intolerant. Of course with Civics like Free Religion affecting it positively and possibly other things too. Moving your Great Prophet to a location where your base/first religion isn't as strong increases the Spiritual Property more there than the old Holy City. In the long run this will also mean that in effect Limited Religions is active as sooner or later all your religious buildings will reduce the Spirituality Property there to nothing.

Adding an Event that on gaining a second religion can place a second and possibly even a third Holy City in the same city instead of where the Spiritual Property is drained from can mean you do get multiple Holy Cities in a city, though only a slight chance for the Event, of course.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

If this means Limited religions becomes the main course of using Religions then I'm not for it. And I'll take where ever the game wants to place my Holy Cities vs this proposed outcome.

@Koshling, I disagree that you would see only well protected cities used. In my case they would be used where I could spread my Culture Borders out further. That's sort of what happens in the game now. You get a new/young city, generally, used by the game as the New founding/ Holy City city for a New religion founded. So you send troops to protect and you send workers to improve. I personally don't like it when the game places a 2nd Holy city in one of your original cities that already has a Holy City for the reason I just stated.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

If this means Limited religions becomes the main course of using Religions then I'm not for it. And I'll take where ever the game wants to place my Holy Cities vs this proposed outcome.

@Koshling, I disagree that you would see only well protected cities used. In my case they would be used where I could spread my Culture Borders out further. That's sort of what happens in the game now. You get a new/young city, generally, used by the game as the New founding/ Holy City city for a New religion founded. So you send troops to protect and you send workers to improve. I personally don't like it when the game places a 2nd Holy city in one of your original cities that already has a Holy City for the reason I just stated.

JosEPh

I don't think that Koshling's proposal would limit religions, he's not saying that you need a certain amount of 'spirit' to found a religion. He and BlueGenie are saying that you would still found the religion, but the location would be determined probabilistically by Faith (which is what I think we should call it) levels in the city. One way or another you would still found the religion if you research the tech first.

 

[BlueGenie]

With "Limited" I meant that it would get progressively harder after each religion you found. That way religions would be more "spaced out" among the civilizations and the tech leader/leaders would not be getting all the religions due to either the old tech-pathing and massive build of Spirituality. A few perhaps but then others get their chance to get Religions too before it's the "leader/leaders" again.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Btw what has changed between C2C and BtS/AND that now religions are founded in old safe cities? It used to be that religions would be founded in small border cities in vanilla BtS and even AND.

Secondly, Sevo's "Faces of God" mod for vanilla Civ IV may be a better way to go. A fare bit of work to do the conversion to C2C but could be done in a version or two. Basically, it reduces the overall effects of the "Holy City" by adding in a special building that you can build for your state religion from a long list that lets you personalise the religion to your game play tastes.

Or go even further by getting rid of the "named" religions completely for generic ones that you build up like you do cultures. A great deal of work since all the religion based buildings would need to change also.

Shouldn't this discussion religions be in the religion discussion thread?

 

[Koshling]

I don't think that Koshling's proposal would limit religions, he's not saying that you need a certain amount of 'spirit' to found a religion. He and BlueGenie are saying that you would still found the religion, but the location would be determined probabilistically by Faith (which is what I think we should call it) levels in the city. One way or another you would still found the religion if you research the tech first.

Actually I DID mean that you'd need a certain amount of spirituality to found a religion (but aggregate as a player not in any particular city), which would replenish from your cities over time (so like GP points in many ways) and woudl ahve the 'cost' of the religion subtracted from it at founding tim. The goal of this mechanic is to prevent someone who reaches techs that activate a cluster of religions close togther in the tech tree would not get to found them all due to their spirituality pool (usually) beign insuffcient to do so in a short space of time. The amount in each city would influence WHERE, the aggregate on the player would control WHETHER.

I have no problem with the WHETHER part of the mechanic beign a game option though.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Okay I can understand that.

But what happens "if" the religions tech pathing clusters were eliminated? Would you still want that type of system?

I'd like to see the clusters broke up 1st. And if the problem then still exists, I could use this new system.

@DH,
Yes it should but this thread was created as a kind of catch all, and guess what it caught!

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Okay I can understand that.

But what happens "if" the religions tech pathing clusters were eliminated? Would you still want that type of system?

I'd like to see the clusters broke up 1st. And if the problem then still exists, I could use this new system.

@DH,
Yes it should but this thread was created as a kind of catch all, and guess what it caught!

JosEPh

Not sure. The discussion mostly got underway as a way to avoid the problems of clustering, but I agree that it probably isn't needed if the clsutering can be eliminated. It may well be that a property-based system would be richer and give us future interesting expansion options, but I certainly agree that the priority would be way lower if the could get rid of ther clustering in the tech tree.