C2C Balance Thread

The game is better balanced on Snail. Why don't you want to play on snail speed?

Would it help if we renamed it "Super Awesome Speed"?

No, sorry it wouldn't. Epic's 3000 turns is plenty long enough for me. An Epic game can literally take me weeks to finish. How much longer would a Snail game take me? I've tried Marathon and I can play it but it takes me almost a month to play on that level. And I Hate clicking the turn button turn after turn doing next to nothing each time. Each turn must have game relevancy for me, something that needs attention to. And by playing on Epic I feel that I actually contribute to the Mod being better balanced for All players than just those that use the slowest speeds.

If you a modder do not try to use other speeds then how can you say the Mod is better balanced? The Mod should be seeking balance on all speeds imho, not just a Modder's favorite one And why "limit' the playability of it too?

@Modding Team,
Strategy Posted this in the SVN thread:
Changed and Added techs


- Agriculture = Sedentary Lifestyle AND Slash and Burn
- Fermentation = Orchards AND Pottery
- Megalith Construction = Mysticism AND Slavery
- Polytheism = Dualism AND Masonry AND Sacrifice Cult
- Sailing = Boat Fishing AND Trade
- Sedentary Lifestyle = Chiefdom AND Livestock Domestication AND Megalith Construction

The red highlighted line is adding to the religion founding Pathing problem. You've clustered 3 religions in the same path allowing the lead research player to found 3 Religions in a relatively short span. Remember SO this is why we broke up the Poly/Mono/Buddhism pathing from vanilla BtS. The Religion paths really can not have another religion as a prereq to a religion giving tech. The reasoning for founding each religion must be based on Other factors to avoid this clustering effect that causes either player or AI to be the Major religion founder in the game.

This is The Main Reason imo, ppl complain about too many Religions in game, or someone getting too many religions. So they have voiced multiple times that religions should be "Limited" for All (which I stand opposed to) Or reduced in game (which I believe would be counter productive for the Mod). If the Pathing is separated so that one religion does not immediately (within 6-10 techs) gives another religion we would not have this perceived problem.

Sorry SO but this change has added to the religion founding problems. I understand your thinking that Kemetism and Ngaiism (sp?) both have more than one god and should naturally lead to Poly which is supposed to represent a pantheon of gods. And Hinduism from Poly does have a host of gods, major and minor iirc. But it's not a good design for this mod and getting a religion.

Religions must be spaced better in the tech tree and Not have another as it's preq. Otherwise imho, we will never fix this problem of religions not getting spread around.

JosEPh
 
Strategy Posted this in the SVN thread:
Changed and Added techs


- Agriculture = Sedentary Lifestyle AND Slash and Burn
- Fermentation = Orchards AND Pottery
- Megalith Construction = Mysticism AND Slavery
- Polytheism = Dualism AND Masonry AND Sacrifice Cult
- Sailing = Boat Fishing AND Trade
- Sedentary Lifestyle = Chiefdom AND Livestock Domestication AND Megalith Construction

The red highlighted line is adding to the religion founding Pathing problem. You've clustered 3 religions in the same path allowing the lead research player to found 3 Religions in a relatively short span. Remember SO this is why we broke up the Poly/Mono/Buddhism pathing from vanilla BtS. The Religion paths really can not have another religion as a prereq to a religion giving tech. The reasoning for founding each religion must be based on Other factors to avoid this clustering effect that causes either player or AI to be the Major religion founder in the game.

This is The Main Reason imo, ppl complain about too many Religions in game, or someone getting too many religions. So they have voiced multiple times that religions should be "Limited" for All (which I stand opposed to) Or reduced in game (which I believe would be counter productive for the Mod). If the Pathing is separated so that one religion does not immediately (within 6-10 techs) gives another religion we would not have this perceived problem.

Sorry SO but this change has added to the religion founding problems. I understand your thinking that Kemetism and Ngaiism (sp?) both have more than one god and should naturally lead to Poly which is supposed to represent a pantheon of gods. And Hinduism from Poly does have a host of gods, major and minor iirc. But it's not a good design for this mod and getting a religion.

Religions must be spaced better in the tech tree and Not have another as it's preq. Otherwise imho, we will never fix this problem of religions not getting spread around.

JosEPh

Have to agree with this part. Keeping religions apart in the tech tree is definately an important goal.
 
Another idea for players who play Huge and above maps and are eXpansionists like Epona and myself: Give us the Option of having 2 settlers and 3 or 4 stonethrowers at game start (AI of course would get the same).

This would help mitigate the Artificial barrier that Tribalism imposes And allow a better base to work from till we do get Tribes. Couple this with removing the :yuck: from the early gathering food builds would help mitigate the claustrophobic condition we are suffering from now.

Or place tribalism closer to the beginning of the tech tree, within the 1st 10 techs. Currently tribalism is at # 26 but might be further back now with SO's tech tree changes.

Oh and for the uninformed I play Every game of C2C on Noble and see no need to change as I Want a level playing field with the AI for testing/play.

JosEPh

JosEPh
 
Another idea for players who play Huge and above maps and are eXpansionists like Epona and myself: Give us the Option of having 2 settlers and 3 or 4 stonethrowers at game start (AI of course would get the same).

This would help mitigate the Artificial barrier that Tribalism imposes And allow a better base to work from till we do get Tribes. Couple this with removing the :yuck: from the early gathering food builds would help mitigate the claustrophobic condition we are suffering from now.

Or place tribalism closer to the beginning of the tech tree, within the 1st 10 techs. Currently tribalism is at # 26 but might be further back now with SO's tech tree changes.

Oh and for the uninformed I play Every game of C2C on Noble and see no need to change as I Want a level playing field with the AI for testing/play.

JosEPh

JosEPh

That sounds like an excellent idea (ability to set number of settlers to start with I mean)
 
Thanks Koshling.

But how do I get the rest of the team to act on it?

JosEPh
 
I can't see why anyone would object - it doesnt effect gameplay unless you choose to use it whatsoever.

I don't object either, but it is a DLL thing (I think), so only Koshling or AIAndy can change it.

@Joseph: How are you doing with the new Inflation settings on Epic. I'm going to try to make it more balanced, as even though I prefer Snail I think it's important to accomodate others who want a faster game. Do you have any other suggestions on what would make things more balanced?
 
The problem is how to separate them? What other tech would fit to split them up? I have not heard any good solutions, only pointing out the problem over and over.

Well I'm sure we can brainstorm some new techs in for that purpose in specific cases. Does anyone (Joseph??) have a list of the ones that are currently a bit over-clustered?
 
@Koshling: Assuming it's not too much work, would you be willing to add the 'start with an extra settler' gameoption that JosePH requested to the SVN? I think that it is great for those of us (which sometimes includes myself:mischief:) who get tired of the repetition in the Prehistoric era and like to rush.
 
@Koshling: Assuming it's not too much work, would you be willing to add the 'start with an extra settler' gameoption that JosePH requested to the SVN? I think that it is great for those of us (which sometimes includes myself:mischief:) who get tired of the repetition in the Prehistoric era and like to rush.

There is a way to do that in the HandicapInfo already??

Spoiler :
Code:
<iStartingDefenseUnits>0</iStartingDefenseUnits>
			<iStartingWorkerUnits>0</iStartingWorkerUnits>
			<iStartingExploreUnits>0</iStartingExploreUnits>
			<iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>0</iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>
			<iAIStartingDefenseUnits>0</iAIStartingDefenseUnits>
			<iAIStartingWorkerUnits>0</iAIStartingWorkerUnits>
			<iAIStartingExploreUnits>0</iAIStartingExploreUnits>

HUH i dont see settler, HUH???

http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php/Civ4HandicapInfo
 
Not for settlers, only for Explorers, Workers, and Defensive units. At any rate, I wanted it to be optional, as not everyone would like it.

But isnt that what Advance Start is for?
 
Except that;

1. You can't buy settlers until you have Tribalism, which is prohibitively far into the Tech Tree.

2. The AI would not use it in the same way, and that would lead to other problems.

I have never played with AS doesnt it have it where you can buy an additional city?, would that suffice as an settler?
 
Going to test AS on C2C just to be able to tell you guys. brb.

Cheers

Right. Back. In checking Prehistoric Advanced Start:
You CAN set more cities but they cost a fair bit of Advanced Points to place. 1170 each on Eternity Speed/Small Map and ~half of that for +1 pop.
Marathon Speed/Std Map gets a city down to 390p, again ~half for +1pop.

It might need some love too. Without buying a tech that grants a Unit Type you can only place Stone Throwers in your cities. Early techs are very cheap compared to placing a city though as they cost the research beakers needed to research it in Adv Points cost, maybe too cheap even, so doing so and getting to better units works nicely. Units might be a bit cheap too though, costing roughly 75% of tehir hammer cost in Adv Points cost.
What might be a problem is that to see any resources you need to buy a minimum of 2 techs. Not a problem, cheap like I said, BUT you need a city to do so so you can't ever set your Capital with any inkling of resources in the area. In fact you have to place a city to be able to buy anything else.

All early buildings except Storage Pit, Cave Dwelling (which should be blocked), Hunting Instructions, and Basketweaver's Hut, are blocked from Advanced Start too. No bushes, tide pools or anything else. I *pause* "only" *pause* checked 5 deep into the tech tree though (including Herbalism, Shelter Building, and Tool Making, three steps where a bunch of buildings come available usually) but shouldn't really be able to get that far into the tree on Advanced Start, imo. Buildings are also really cheap, costing 75% of their hammer cost to place.

Placing Improvements seems to work well once one has bought the required technologies. A bug though is that Harvest Kelp, Young Forest, and Lighthouse improvements are open for buying from start, except you can't place them anywhere so they are just a display bug.
They also seem to be aligned in cost in the vicinity of placing cities and getting pop increase.

Buying up Culture level is priced along City and Pop costs, and works with the Realistic Spread too. First level is dead cheap, second level costs approx what setting a new city costs.

-So, to sum it up there are two camps, those that are dead cheap, and those that are expensive. Either the cheap need costing more with increased Adv starting Points or the expensive need reducing in cost to make any Adv Start balanced.
Expensive are Cities, Culture, Population, Improvement.
Cheap are Technologies, Units, Buildings.
-A bunch of buildings need adding to being available with Adv Starting too.
-Some way to allow seeing at least the Gathering Tech revealed resources before setting the Capitol.

Cheers
 
Well I'm sure we can brainstorm some new techs in for that purpose in specific cases. Does anyone (Joseph??) have a list of the ones that are currently a bit over-clustered?
Personally I vote for adding a new property, something like "Spirituality" that is added by population and some buildings and then if you have enough you can found a religion (if you have the tech needed). That way the tech alone is not enough and you won't found all religions only because you are the tech leader.
 
Another idea for players who play Huge and above maps and are eXpansionists like Epona and myself: Give us the Option of having 2 settlers and 3 or 4 stonethrowers at game start (AI of course would get the same).

This would help mitigate the Artificial barrier that Tribalism imposes And allow a better base to work from till we do get Tribes. Couple this with removing the :yuck: from the early gathering food builds would help mitigate the claustrophobic condition we are suffering from now.

Or place tribalism closer to the beginning of the tech tree, within the 1st 10 techs. Currently tribalism is at # 26 but might be further back now with SO's tech tree changes.

Oh and for the uninformed I play Every game of C2C on Noble and see no need to change as I Want a level playing field with the AI for testing/play.

JosEPh

JosEPh

I would welcome this, sometimes when I start up a game I will go straight into Worldbuilder, locate all the starting civs, and give every civ (including myself) a couple of extra tribes and military units - the disadvantage of this of course is that in Worldbuilder you get to see all the terrain, resources, and the starting locations of each AI civ, so it's a case of try not to pay too much attention and do the equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and singing "la la la I can't hear you" whilst doing it!

Weird thing is that I'm not sure AI has an expansive enough mentality to cope with this, I once (in v21 iirc) gave another Civ 3 extra tribe units and they just sat in his only city, unused, for nigh on 50,000 years until I got fed up with their ingratitude and wiped them out :( Wish I'd saved that game so that I could post it up so the AI could be analysed on that, I do think the AI plays a very conservative game at the best of times! Alas I no longer have a copy.
 
Personally I vote for adding a new property, something like "Spirituality" that is added by population and some buildings and then if you have enough you can found a religion (if you have the tech needed). That way the tech alone is not enough and you won't found all religions only because you are the tech leader.

How would that work with Divine Prophets, Limited Religions, and Choose Religion options?

Cheers
 
The problem is how to separate them? What other tech would fit to split them up? I have not heard any good solutions, only pointing out the problem over and over.

That's why I asked for the tech tree. I d/l'd what you have in your sig line. But does not show preqs or And/Or or Pathing. So it's taking me a non modder some time to put it together and figure things out. I still work 40+ hrs a week and only play evenings and parts of the weekend. I'm not skilled in xml or anything like that so I'm fumbling around a bunch which also eats up what time i can devote to it.

I know your pissed at me but I have Not attacked you. Only pointed out how I see certain things. Which I believe is called feedback, something you've asked for. Do I post with drama, sure, I get fired up about things too.

As I posted in the other thread were you gashed me, I can stop with the feedback. If it's what you really want. I'm sorry your not taking criticism well right now. Forgive me for being passionate about this Mod.

Have a good day Hydro.

JosEPh
 
Top Bottom