C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[EldrinFal]

Anything that will make DC more attractive is good for me.

Pushed to SVN...

Divine Cult adjustments

• +10% Building Production in Cities with State
• +10% Unit Production in Cities with State
• +2 (total) in Cities with State (increased from +1 )

 

[climat]

Do you think Intolerant should be adjusted also?
-25% is the problem, I think. It makes sense but a serious turn-off.

 

[EldrinFal]

Do you think Intolerant should be adjusted also?
-25% is the problem, I think. It makes sense but a serious turn-off.

Intolerant, State Church, and Divine Cult are very similar I think. Yes there are some core differences, but so close I think in the long run one will have to go.

It could use some tweaks though.

 

[EldrinFal]

Revised Slavery (all values)...


Slavery

• Low Upkeep (down from Medium)
• +1 from Plantation, Winery, Silk Farm, Apple Orchard
• -10% Great Person Birth Rate
• Remove: -10% Inflation
• Remove: +10% Commerce in All Cities
• +5% in All Cities
• -10% in All Cities
• +5% in All Cities
• +10% in All Cities
• +1 from Mine, Shaft Mine, Modern Mine, Quarry
• +50% faster construction of Servant Quarters
• Boost to all other Civs without Slavery Civic
• +2 in All Cities (up from +1 )
• +25% required for Growth (down from +50%)
• +2 in All Cities (up from +1 )
• -10% in All Cities
• +25% Maintenance for City Distance
• +25% Maintenance for City Overseas
• -10% Maintenance for Corporations
• Remove: -15% Maintenance for City Numbers
• +100% Worker Unit Production
• Unlimited Slaves
• Can Sacrifice Population to Rush Production
• Worker's Build Improvement Rate +25% (down from +50%)
• War Weariness -5% (to reflect slaves used in battle / slaves tending to domestic needs while citizens at war)

 

[EldrinFal]

@AIAndy or @Koshling

In the Civics tags there is currently this:

iBaseFreeUnits = Free number of units
iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits = Free number of military units

I think a value that scales to city number makes more sense. Would it be possible to get a new one? Something where the Value = number of additional free units per city? Default = 0.

 

[Koshling]

@AIAndy or @Koshling

In the Civics tags there is currently this:

iBaseFreeUnits = Free number of units
iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits = Free number of military units

I think a value that scales to city number makes more sense. Would it be possible to get a new one? Something where the Value = number of additional free units per city? Default = 0.

It would, but I'm not sure I agree. Scaling with city count would be another positive feedback thing that meant the bigger you got the easier it was to get bigger still. I think this SHOULD (auto) scale with world size (which it currently doesn't) but not sure about with city count...

 

[EldrinFal]

It would, but I'm not sure I agree. Scaling with city count would be another positive feedback thing that meant the bigger you got the easier it was to get bigger still. I think this SHOULD (auto) scale with world size (which it currently doesn't) but not sure about with city count...

Oh. Well I guess I just thought of those starting free units as ones to defend your cities with: one free per city. An arbitrary number doesn't seem right which some of these civics have as is. I suppose a better value would be 1 free per city, but only free so long as it stays in the city.

 

[Koshling]

Oh. Well I guess I just thought of those starting free units as ones to defend your cities with: one free per city. An arbitrary number doesn't seem right which some of these civics have as is. I suppose a better value would be 1 free per city, but only free so long as it stays in the city.

You shouldn't think of them as 'starting units' , but as 'units you can run with no support costs' I think - no presumption of defence.

 

[EldrinFal]

You shouldn't think of them as 'starting units' , but as 'units you can run with no support costs' I think - no presumption of defence.

Ok, then perhaps changing basefreeunits and basefreemilitaryunits so they scale to map size will be enough. Or scale in reverse according to difficulty level is another option.

 

[BlueGenie]

They do "scale" by difficulty already but not with map size. I up them by +6 across the board in my own games anyway. This doesn't really change anything in the middle and late game (6 more when unit costs are in the hundreds) in the game but enables a few more animals saved up in the early game.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

Revised Slavery (all values)...


Slavery

• Low Upkeep (down from Medium)
• +1 from Plantation, Winery, Silk Farm, Apple Orchard
• -10% Great Person Birth Rate
• +1 Trade Route per City
• +10 trade income with Civs using same Civic (Slavery)
• Remove: -10% Inflation
• Remove: +10% Commerce in All Cities
• +5% in All Cities
• -10% in All Cities
• +5% in All Cities
• +10% in All Cities
• +1 from Mine, Shaft Mine, Modern Mine, Quarry, Servant Quarters
• Boost to all other Civs without Slavery Civic
• +2 in All Cities (up from +1 )
• +25% required for Growth (down from +50%)
• +2 in All Cities (up from +1 )
• -10% in All Cities
• +25% Maintenance for City Distance
• +25% Maintenance for City Overseas
• -10% Maintenance for Corporations
• Remove: -15% Maintenance for City Numbers
• +100% Worker Unit Production
• Unlimited Slaves
• Can Sacrifice Population to Rush Production
• Worker's Build Improvement Rate +25% (down from +50%)
• War Weariness -10% (to reflect slaves used in battle / slaves tending to domestic needs while citizens at war)

This is still to OP and the AI will use it till the cows come home.

• Low Upkeep (down from Medium). Needs to be High Upkeep
• +10 trade income with Civs using same Civic (Slavery). Another reason all the AI will use it
• Remove: -10% Inflation. Should have been increased to +10 inflation
• -10% Maintenance for Corporations. Unnecessary could delete entirely
  This one is the Real killer:
• +100% Worker Unit Production. This will be The Main Cause for the AI to stick with this Civic forever.
• Unlimited Slaves. Why is this even needed?
• Worker's Build Improvement Rate +25% (down from +50%), Should have been eliminated. Another reason AI will continue to use this civic when it should've moved on.
• War Weariness -10% (to reflect slaves used in battle / slaves tending to domestic needs while citizens at war).
  WW should have been Increased by 10% or more.

(Slaves were only used in war/battles when the only Option given to them was Fight or Die, and that was rare in history. Most of the time the slaves turned on their Captors because the Opposing nation(s)/Armies would grant them freedom.)

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

• Unlimited Slaves. Why is this even needed?

JosEPh

Because if it is not there you can't have slaves as specialists in your cities.

 

[ls612]

This is still to OP and the AI will use it till the cows come home.

• Low Upkeep (down from Medium). Needs to be High Upkeep
• +10 trade income with Civs using same Civic (Slavery). Another reason all the AI will use it
• Remove: -10% Inflation. Should have been increased to +10 inflation
• -10% Maintenance for Corporations. Unnecessary could delete entirely
  This one is the Real killer:
• +100% Worker Unit Production. This will be The Main Cause for the AI to stick with this Civic forever.
• Unlimited Slaves. Why is this even needed?
• Worker's Build Improvement Rate +25% (down from +50%), Should have been eliminated. Another reason AI will continue to use this civic when it should've moved on.
• War Weariness -10% (to reflect slaves used in battle / slaves tending to domestic needs while citizens at war).
  WW should have been Increased by 10% or more.

(Slaves were only used in war/battles when the only Option given to them was Fight or Die, and that was rare in history. Most of the time the slaves turned on their Captors because the Opposing nation(s)/Armies would grant them freedom.)

JosEPh

Actually, many nations throughout history were used in armies. The Mongols used prisoners of war and slaves as ballista fodder when attacking cities. They were far from the only nomadic culture to use them this way. Another great (but not as well known) use of slaves in armies was the Turkish Janissaries, who were not just slaves from a young age, but one of the elite units in Europe at the time.

I think that we should just change slavery to provide a MUCH higher relations penalty after the Rennaisance (Don't know what the exact tech/civic should be) and add a corresponding AIweight penalty. That should limit slavery to it's (very broad) historical usage.

 

[Koshling]

Actually, many nations throughout history were used in armies. The Mongols used prisoners of war and slaves as ballista fodder when attacking cities. They were far from the only nomadic culture to use them this way. Another great (but not as well known) use of slaves in armies was the Turkish Janissaries, who were not just slaves from a young age, but one of the elite units in Europe at the time.

I think that we should just change slavery to provide a MUCH higher relations penalty after the Rennaisance (Don't know what the exact tech/civic should be) and add a corresponding AIweight penalty. That should limit slavery to it's (very broad) historical usage.

I don't think the is any way to add an aiweight that only takes effect after a certain tech or era. Anyway, I would strongly prefer we keep away from aiweights until options are exhausted. The ai civic evaluation should be able to take account of however you add relation modifiers to the civic.

 

[ls612]

That's fine, I was mostly referring to Joseph's complaint about it being OP.

It should be sorta better than the alternatives economically, as that is how it was historically. Only the Enlightenment and a Civil War ended it in Europe and America. Those should be covered by civic unhappiness and relations penalties, and REV.

Can you set the civic unhappiness to get worse with techs? I'm not that familiar with civics tags.

 

[JosEPh_II]

That's fine, I was mostly referring to Joseph's complaint about it being OP.

It should be sorta better than the alternatives economically, as that is how it was historically. Only the Enlightenment and a Civil War ended it in Europe and America. Those should be covered by civic unhappiness and relations penalties, and REV.

Can you set the civic unhappiness to get worse with techs? I'm not that familiar with civics tags.

Actually you didn't address my complaint about Slavery being OP. You added info about slaves used in war. Nor was WW addressed.

The point is Slavery Civic even in this form is Too Strong of a Civic for the AI to Ever Want to use any other civic in Slavery's category. So you lose Diversity for the AI and are locking it into a Set Pattern. Now the AI becomes predictable and the Cry goes up "the AI is weak/to easy to defeat/dumb/etc, etc, etc.".

Even the point about it being the better economic alternative for it's time is debatable but to do so (debate it) is Not gonna improve the AI. It's not what we want for "Our (player) Civics" but what will help the AI be diverse and challenging. This will lock the AI in to 1 economic Civic as it has done so in the past.

JosEPh

 

[EldrinFal]

Actually you didn't address my complaint about Slavery being OP. You added info about slaves used in war. Nor was WW addressed.

The point is Slavery Civic even in this form is Too Strong of a Civic for the AI to Ever Want to use any other civic in Slavery's category. So you lose Diversity for the AI and are locking it into a Set Pattern. Now the AI becomes predictable and the Cry goes up "the AI is weak/to easy to defeat/dumb/etc, etc, etc.".

Even the point about it being the better economic alternative for it's time is debatable but to do so (debate it) is Not gonna improve the AI. It's not what we want for "Our (player) Civics" but what will help the AI be diverse and challenging. This will lock the AI in to 1 economic Civic as it has done so in the past.

JosEPh

This is not true. I've seen the AI use other Civics. Additionally, I'm trying to keep Civics as realistic as possible while keeping balance in mind, but not simply weigh it down with arbitrary penalties.

As I and others mentioned, the War Weariness comes from how Slaves affected a civilization during times of war. In some cases they were used on the battlefield, such as the Janissaries, in other cases, such as in Roman Empire, they fulfilled duties and tasks left empty when citizen soldiers went to war. I see both of those as factors that would lower WW.

The trade elements I thought made sense because Slave trade was a huge business. But perhaps the +1 route AND +10 income are overboard, so I can tone that down.

I'll also point out that the biggest drawback for Slavery is essentially a moral one. And it is a big part of human history that STILL exists in some places today because of the "value" of it. So it does make sense to be a very attractive Civic.

The Worker Production I HAD toned down to 50%, but brought it back to what the original setting was because it just seems to make so much sense for Workers to be readily and cheaply available. And with little regard for their happiness or health, it is easy to drive them to work harder, even if they die in the process.

Upkeep at High.. Why? Why would the government be paying more for the existence of slavery in the nation? I look at Upkeep in that way and again aim for realism as my top priority. Same goes for Inflation.

 

[AIAndy]

Even the point about it being the better economic alternative for it's time is debatable but to do so (debate it) is Not gonna improve the AI. It's not what we want for "Our (player) Civics" but what will help the AI be diverse and challenging. This will lock the AI in to 1 economic Civic as it has done so in the past.

JosEPh

Really, JosEPh, we have full control over the AI decision procedure. If we see it using a civic too often, then we can just change that procedure at its core by changing the value the AI assigns to the different civic modifiers and not by changing the balance of the civic.

So ask yourself (and give feedback based on that):
If you were a player trying for the optimal choice of civic, would you always choose that civic?
If the answer is yes, then we have a balance problem and the right action is changing the civic.
If no (you would choose different civics in different situations), then no change of the civic is needed. But in this case we get to the second question.
Does the AI always or at least far too often choose that civic?
If yes, then it seems like the AI overvalues the civic (as the answer to question 1 was that a player would choose varied options). The correct action is to find out why the AI overvalues the civic and change the decision procedure accordingly.

 

[EldrinFal]

I think it's also important to point out that not everyone changes Civics constantly. Personally, with my style of play, I build up my Civics as they become available, evaluating new ones against the one I currently use, but once the "best" ones are available-- and I mean "best" in MY opinion of them-- I typically just sit on those for most or all of the game. I usually change a Civic only if it's very weighted to either war or anti-war, and I need to swing the other way, either short or long term.

But just because I prefer 1 or 2 Civics, doesn't mean they are OP. It just means I value them above others. And Civics *I* use may not even be the same ones other players use.

 

[Koshling]

I think it's also important to point out that not everyone changes Civics constantly. Personally, with my style of play, I build up my Civics as they become available, evaluating new ones against the one I currently use, but once the "best" ones are available-- and I mean "best" in MY opinion of them-- I typically just sit on those for most or all of the game. I usually change a Civic only if it's very weighted to either war or anti-war, and I need to swing the other way, either short or long term.

But just because I prefer 1 or 2 Civics, doesn't mean they are OP. It just means I value them above others. And Civics *I* use may not even be the same ones other players use.

Maybe we should get some stats on what people do tend to like. Personally I like GP and science modifiers a lot, so I tend to use pacifism and free church for example. I pretty much never use slavery (hate negative growth modifiers).