C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[EldrinFal]

I'll be pushing the Divine Cult change soon (likely tonight) based on climat's suggestions with some adjustments.

In the meantime, looking at some of the Economy Civics (Slavery mainly but part of that is evaluating other Civics too) and thinking of the following changes:

Communalism (just changes listed)

• No Inflation (to match the Barter Civic)
• -1 Trade Route
• +2 in All Cities (to reflect the effect of sharing all possessions)
• Remove: -20% in All Cities

Barter (just changes listed)

• +25% from Trade Routes (down from +50%)
• -25% Commerce from Trade Routes (up from -50%)
• +1 in All Cities (reflect swapping of goods)
• Remove: -10% in All Cities

Slavery (just changes listed)

• Low Upkeep (down from Medium)
• -10% Great Person Birth Rate
• +1 Trade Route per City
• Remove: -10% Inflation
• Remove: +10% Commerce in All Cities
• +10% in All Cities
• -10% in All Cities
• +5% in All Cities
• +2 in All Cities (up from +1 )
• +25% required for Growth (down from +50%)
• +2 in All Cities (up from +1 )
• -5% in All Cities
• +10% Maintenance for City Distance (down from 25%)
• +10% Maintenance for City Overseas
• -10% Maintenance for Corporations
• Remove: -15% Maintenance for City Numbers
• +50% Worker Unit Production (down from +100%)
• Worker's Build Improvement Rate +25% (down from +50%)
• War Weariness -10% (to reflect slaves used in battle)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Not sure I agree with the increased from slavery, but then I don't think slavery belongs in the economy civic. Also the idea of giving slaves arms and letting them fight in wars seems a bit dangerous, better to keep those that can fight in the arena and locked up the rest of the time.

 

[EldrinFal]

Not sure I agree with the increased from slavery, but then I don't think slavery belongs in the economy civic. Also the idea of giving slaves arms and letting them fight in wars seems a bit dangerous, better to keep those that can fight in the arena and locked up the rest of the time.

It doesn't really. These are just short term fixes to address immediate problems mentioned by some people. Treatment of slaves ranges across nation and individuals, but since most slaves are prisoners of war and marched with little care from the battlefield, they tend not to be too healthy. And then there are the slaves whipped to a lather when put to work.

Regarding slaves in armies, here is a Wiki quote:

Spoiler :

In the middle of the 14th century, Murad I built his own personal slave army called the Kapıkulu. The new force was based on the sultan's right to a fifth of the war booty, which he interpreted to include captives taken in battle. The captive slaves were converted to Islam and trained in the sultan's personal service. In the devşirme (Turkish for 'gathering'), young Christian boys from the Balkans were taken away from their homes and families, converted to Islam and enlisted into special soldier classes of the Ottoman army or the civil service. These soldier classes were named Janissaries, the most famous branch of the Kapıkulu. The Janissaries eventually became a decisive factor in the Ottoman invasions of Europe. Most of the military commanders of the Ottoman forces, imperial administrators and de facto rulers of the Ottoman Empire, such as Pargalı İbrahim Pasha and Sokollu Mehmet Paşa, were recruited in this way

Nothing is set in stone of course. I post these for the very purpose of getting input.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I don't think slavery should have +5% either. If anything the slaves are loosing their culture when they become slaves.

 

[robomani]

You could take a look to this tread, not directly applicable, but can give ideas.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=283862

 

[Necratoid]

Concider the Roman Empire... it tended to get its cultural advancements directly from the slaves or their concured Civs in general. Look at how Voodoo resulted from lots of slaves blending cultures. Look at the Janisaries and how they became one of the driving forces in the Empire.

Slave culture mutates not disolve... often new cultural bits spwan derectly from slavery... it just usually not the masters that are generating the culture... it the slaves adapting to their new culture.

 

[EldrinFal]

You could take a look to this tread, not directly applicable, but can give ideas.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=283862

That Culture category is one I was pondering for the future. Thanks for the link.

Concider the Roman Empire... it tended to get its cultural advancements directly from the slaves or their concured Civs in general. Look at how Voodoo resulted from lots of slaves blending cultures. Look at the Janisaries and how they became one of the driving forces in the Empire.

Slave culture mutates not disolve... often new cultural bits spwan derectly from slavery... it just usually not the masters that are generating the culture... it the slaves adapting to their new culture.

That was my thinking. That Wiki article talked about the Janisaries more after that quote I posted and their growing prominence in society.

Overall I thought Slaves would bring in some of their culture and looking at slavery from different societies throughout history, there are different ways they have influenced the culture.

 

[robomani]

I thought about a new category of civic that could be interesting, it is just a base and I don’t know how much work it would need but it could inspire you.

First we would have to change some things:
-Change slaves for prisoners
-When taking a prisoner he keep track of its native civ
-If possible the prisoner should keep track of the unit he originally was (if it can’t he just have the possibility to be upgraded to a normal unit)
-Prisoners can be traded (not only to their native civ)
-When a prisoner is controlled by its native civ he can be integrated in a city for a small food boost and a medium decrease of WW or be reequipped (upgraded) to the unit he was (keep XP and prom)
-Units without combat strength are automatically taken prisoner (if possible)
-Prisoner can cause war wariness each turn for their native civ each turn
-Units can sometime be converted on combat victory (like in this mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169738)

Prisoner civic: How your civ treat war prisoners.

-No prisoner: All enemies are killed, you don’t take prisoners.
No chance of prisoner or conversion
+X% strength for all your units (They don’t care for the enemies will and attack at sight)
+National stability (no prisoner talk to make your citizen doubt the evilness of your enemies)

-Slavery: If enemies can be subdued or surrender, you take them as cheap expendable goods otherwise known as slave.
Medium chance of capturing prisoners
No chance of conversion (all enemies are treated as slave and you don’t let them the chance to freely joint your army)
Prisoner cause some WW (All but the family of the prisoners treat them as dead if captured by your civ)
Prisoners have the normal uses of slaves.

-Information gathering: If enemies can be subdued or surrender, you take them to get as much info as possible of them.
Medium chance of capturing prisoners
Small chance of converting defeated enemies (They could want to work for you to keep their freedom and their lives)
Prisoner cause medium WW (Seeing that you can sometime set prisoner free or trade them the prisoners’ native civ haven’t given up on them)
Prisoners you own can randomly be convinced to work as spy for you if you return them to their civ (randomly give a hidden promo to prisoner you own.*)
Prisoners can be interrogated to give a boost in espionage /science
Bonus espionage / science for combat victories

-War Hostage: You take as much of your enemies as possible prisoner to use them against their native civ.
High chance of capturing prisoners
Really small chance of converting defeated enemies (They could want to work for you to keep their freedom and their lives, but seeing as badly you treat them they often hate you)
Prisoner cause high WW (You treat your prisoners badly mainly to annoy your rival and don’t hesitate to execute them or trade them back if the prisoners’ native civ can pay your price)
You can publicly execute a prisoner to give a huge WW hit to its native civ (and probably a long term diplomatic penalty).
-X% strength for all your units (They go out of their way to try to capture your enemies)

-Prisoner rights: You treat your prisoners with care
Medium chance of capturing prisoners
Medium chance of converting defeated enemies (Seeing as you bested them spared their lives and treated them better than they would have hoped some could think that working for you is better for them than returning)
Prisoner cause medium WW (The families of your prisoners know that their loved one are safe but want to have them at home)
Each prisoner have a upkeep of 1 gold per turn (Food, medical treatment, decent confinement and all your other care cost more than tying your prisoner in a hole with old bread and a little water).
A small diplomatic bonus with all civs and medium for civs you are at war with.

-Converting: Your way is the best your enemies just don’t see it but you intend to have them go to the right path… Yours
Medium chance of capturing prisoners
High chance of converting defeated enemies (You take all mean necessary to make your enemies see tings your way)
Prisoner cause medium WW (The families of your prisoners know that their loved one are somewhat safe but want to have them at home)
Each prisoner have a upkeep of 2 gold per turn but each turn your prisoners have a small chance to joint you** (You try to convert your prisoners with all you have)
-X% strength for all your units (They go out of their way to try to capture your enemies)

*The hidden promo has a small chance each turn to disappear. As long as it has this promo you can see what the unit see even if the unit leave your control. If the prisoner is settled in a city when it still has the promo you gain a medium one time boost of espionage vs this civ.

**Converted prisoner act as if they were prisoner that was taken from your civ.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@robomani

Interesting civic. What techs do you invision them to be enabled at? Also what kind of upkeep?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I thought about a new category of civic that could be interesting, it is just a base and I don’t know how much work it would need but it could inspire you.

First we would have to change some things:
-Change slaves for prisoners
-When taking a prisoner he keep track of its native civ
-If possible the prisoner should keep track of the unit he originally was (if it can’t he just have the possibility to be upgraded to a normal unit)
-Prisoners can be traded (not only to their native civ)
-When a prisoner is controlled by its native civ he can be integrated in a city for a small food boost and a medium decrease of WW or be reequipped (upgraded) to the unit he was (keep XP and prom)
-Units without combat strength are automatically taken prisoner (if possible)
-Prisoner can cause war wariness each turn for their native civ each turn
-Units can sometime be converted on combat victory (like in this mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169738)

Prisoner civic: How your civ treat war prisoners.

-No prisoner: All enemies are killed, you don’t take prisoners.
No chance of prisoner or conversion
+X% strength for all your units (They don’t care for the enemies will and attack at sight)
+National stability (no prisoner talk to make your citizen doubt the evilness of your enemies)

-Slavery: If enemies can be subdued or surrender, you take them as cheap expendable goods otherwise known as slave.
Medium chance of capturing prisoners
No chance of conversion (all enemies are treated as slave and you don’t let them the chance to freely joint your army)
Prisoner cause some WW (All but the family of the prisoners treat them as dead if captured by your civ)
Prisoners have the normal uses of slaves.

-Information gathering: If enemies can be subdued or surrender, you take them to get as much info as possible of them.
Medium chance of capturing prisoners
Small chance of converting defeated enemies (They could want to work for you to keep their freedom and their lives)
Prisoner cause medium WW (Seeing that you can sometime set prisoner free or trade them the prisoners’ native civ haven’t given up on them)
Prisoners you own can randomly be convinced to work as spy for you if you return them to their civ (randomly give a hidden promo to prisoner you own.*)
Prisoners can be interrogated to give a boost in espionage /science
Bonus espionage / science for combat victories

-War Hostage: You take as much of your enemies as possible prisoner to use them against their native civ.
High chance of capturing prisoners
Really small chance of converting defeated enemies (They could want to work for you to keep their freedom and their lives, but seeing as badly you treat them they often hate you)
Prisoner cause high WW (You treat your prisoners badly mainly to annoy your rival and don’t hesitate to execute them or trade them back if the prisoners’ native civ can pay your price)
You can publicly execute a prisoner to give a huge WW hit to its native civ (and probably a long term diplomatic penalty).
-X% strength for all your units (They go out of their way to try to capture your enemies)

-Prisoner rights: You treat your prisoners with care
Medium chance of capturing prisoners
Medium chance of converting defeated enemies (Seeing as you bested them spared their lives and treated them better than they would have hoped some could think that working for you is better for them than returning)
Prisoner cause medium WW (The families of your prisoners know that their loved one are safe but want to have them at home)
Each prisoner have a upkeep of 1 gold per turn (Food, medical treatment, decent confinement and all your other care cost more than tying your prisoner in a hole with old bread and a little water).

-Converting: Your way is the best your enemies just don’t see it but you intend to have them go to the right path… Yours
Medium chance of capturing prisoners
High chance of converting defeated enemies (You take all mean necessary to make your enemies see tings your way)
Prisoner cause medium WW (The families of your prisoners know that their loved one are somewhat safe but want to have them at home)
Each prisoner have a upkeep of 2 gold per turn but each turn your prisoners have a small chance to joint you** (You try to convert your prisoners with all you have)
-X% strength for all your units (They go out of their way to try to capture your enemies)

*The hidden promo has a small chance each turn to disappear. As long as it has this promo you can see what the unit see even if the unit leave your control. If the prisoner is settled in a city when it still has the promo you gain a medium one time boost of espionage vs this civ.

**Converted prisoner act as if they were prisoner that was taken from your civ.

We need to get WLBO working to support this.

• Slaves
• Hostages (Feudal idea)
• Ransom (give prisoners back for money)
• Prisoners of War
  • Just more criminals (pre criminal rights)
  • Prisoner of war camps & work camps (Napeolionic era)
  • Ginevia convention on prisoners of war
• terrorists

 

[Necratoid]

Bit of a revision of that new civic idea... make it the new Civic 'Warfare Methodology'.

The idea is how your culture handles the ethics of warfair:

1) What it does with the guys units: Kill them all? POWs? Kill the men, claim the women? Disarm and release? Forced decimation (Meaning you have the prisoners beat one tenth of their own number to death)?, etc...

2) How does the property of the opposing Civ fare? Steal everything including the nails? Let the troops take a percent? 'Put it back now' response to looting?

3) How does infrastructor fair? Salt the fields? Burn the cottages/villiges? Only take out their factories? Disable to hamper the war machine, but don't destroy it outright?

4) How do the buildings get treated on conquest? Burnination? Scrap them for cash? Damage only the fortifications?

Basically, it starts off with smash and grab... and eventally gets to the expensive liberate and return model. For some examples:

-Smash and grab: the standard of warfare
-Extermination: The point is to make sure they never can trouble you again.
-Total War: the point is to raise WW to the point the other Civ can't function effectively and continue the war.
-Liberation: We don't want your land... we want your government removed. You don't take cities you give them to a favored splinter group of the same Civ. Though you'll have to guard their cities until they get things together.

Also needs one that emphesizes getting as much out of the other guy as possible and another option for ... or at least this is what it should do.

The main issue is to do it right your going to need to make it so raiding is better/existant. In other words you need the early versions heavy on if they attack the city and kill a unit or withdrawl more benifits in terms of /./. That and kidnapping population (a unit that exist just to move population from one city to another, should come up.) Taking the city is a goal that shouldn't be possible until at least warfare is researched.

 

[robomani]

@Hydromancerx

For the tech and upkeep I don't really know, maybe:
-No prisoner/Starting civic (No upkeep)
-Slavery/Slavery (no or low)
-Information gathering/Alphabet (same time as spy) (low)
-War Hostage/ For that one I don't really know maybe slavery or trade (low)
-Prisoner rights/Code of Laws (medium)
-Converting/Probably Vassalage or a middle age religious tech (medium or high)

One thing I tried to do was letting each civic equally useful in different areas so that even the start civic have some appeal late game.

 

[EldrinFal]

I thought about a new category of civic that could be interesting, it is just a base and I don’t know how much work it would need but it could inspire you.

First we would have to change some things:
-Change slaves for prisoners
-When taking a prisoner he keep track of its native civ
-If possible the prisoner should keep track of the unit he originally was (if it can’t he just have the possibility to be upgraded to a normal unit)
-Prisoners can be traded (not only to their native civ)
-When a prisoner is controlled by its native civ he can be integrated in a city for a small food boost and a medium decrease of WW or be reequipped (upgraded) to the unit he was (keep XP and prom)
-Units without combat strength are automatically taken prisoner (if possible)
-Prisoner can cause war wariness each turn for their native civ each turn
-Units can sometime be converted on combat victory (like in this mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169738)


*The hidden promo has a small chance each turn to disappear. As long as it has this promo you can see what the unit see even if the unit leave your control. If the prisoner is settled in a city when it still has the promo you gain a medium one time boost of espionage vs this civ.

**Converted prisoner act as if they were prisoner that was taken from your civ.

Those are some neat ideas robomani. Regarding the prisoner concept, are you suggesting a new specialist type? I think DH was working on making more available so it may be possible soon. Have we ever had a function to change one specialist to another?

Prisoner causing war weariness to their nation is a new concept too. Not unwarranted mind you. But will needed to be handled with care, otherwise it could devastate the home nation. And for how long if your pows are being bought/sold like cattle across AI nations?

Or instead of a specialist, were you thinking a normal unit? Something that has it's own "class" and could be referenced in Civics to cause extra WW and other effects?

 

[EldrinFal]

I disagree about "No non-state religion spread" part. Civilizations that had DC-kind of system didn't persecute or reject other religions that much as far as I know, and I think it makes people avoid using DC even more since multiple religions are generally more beneficial. I even thought Intolerant should not exclude spread of other religions. Not sure about inquisition, though. Having earlier inquisition civic may be good for revolution players.

EDIT: and 1 per non-state religion. It was not listed. I disagree about this also.

DC is where the people think of their leaders as gods. Why would "gods" leading a nation allow other religions to spread and proliferate in their realm? Anyone who dared practice any other religion would be persecuted, if caught, or otherwise be unhappy because they aren't allowed to practice their religion openly.

DC highly favors a single religion nation. And being an early Civic, it is geared more towards people with 1 or 2 religions. Single religion vs multiple religion SHOULD be a strategy/choice. If we assume multiple religions is always good and gear Civics that way, then it WILL be the defacto strategy.

Also, North Korea is one of the cited exampled of a DC today and is notorious for human rights violations across the board, including religious persecution (the other ones setup there are believed to be state sponsored so as to APPEAR as though they aren't persecuting).

Edit: Climat, what do you think about a slight production increase in cities with the State religion to make it a bit more attractive? Also, I can bump up in cities with State Religion to +2 to offset unhappiness for 1 extra religion, but more than that should cause . What do you think?

 

[robomani]

I was thinking of a normal unit like the slave you can take with the slavery civic or maybe just take the unit with a prisoner promotion that give you his control and drop his strength to 0 (so that they are captured automatically if you attack them). And different civic give different action to prisoner (interrogate, execute, etc...) I don't know if we can do that with a promotion (to keep units the same if converted/rearmed) if not a new unit type would certainly work.

For war weariness even high would be like 30% of a normal defeat per turn so 3 prisoners make almost as if you lost one unit per turn but only one civic give high prisoner WW. Also when you return one of the prisoner from your civ to one of your city you can let them return home for a good decrease in WW.

For trading prisoner to other nation it is wanted, you want your prisoner back trade them for other prisoner, gold, tech or go at war. And you can use it too, you have bad relation with civ X? buy/capture some of their prisoners and give them back (or trade them back).

 

[Necratoid]

Basicaly your thinking of a 'subdued' X unit subtype.... the easiest way to do that would be to make a promotion, 'POW Civ X' then they rest of the normal unit description. This promotion makes them the capturing nations unit, gives a negative 1000% to strength or something, and WW to the nation of origin... can a prommotion be removed from a unit?

The main issue is that I'm not sure that what happens if you can't... getting a level 10 unit with 5-8 special promotions back at a fraction of its strength would make me question if I couldn't/shouldn't just assassinate the unit to negate the WW negative.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydromancerx

For the tech and upkeep I don't really know, maybe:
-No prisoner/Starting civic (No upkeep)
-Slavery/Slavery (no or low)
-Information gathering/Alphabet (same time as spy) (low)
-War Hostage/ For that one I don't really know maybe slavery or trade (low)
-Prisoner rights/Code of Laws (medium)
-Converting/Probably Vassalage or a middle age religious tech (medium or high)

One thing I tried to do was letting each civic equally useful in different areas so that even the start civic have some appeal late game.

Those don't look too bad. Though I think maybe War Hostages should be enabled at "Warfare" tech. Thus the order they llist could be ...

- No Prisoner
- War Hostage
- Slavery
- Info Gathering
- Prisoner's Rights
- Converting

Since that would be the tech chronology order.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Those don't look too bad. Though I think maybe War Hostages should be enabled at "Warfare" tech. Thus the order they llist could be ...

- No Prisoner
- War Hostage
- Slavery
- Info Gathering
- Prisoner's Rights
- Converting

Since that would be the tech chronology order.

Since it is only the rich that will be ransomed with the poor being enslaved or left in prison to rot. I think the first, second and third need adjustment.

• no prisoner - captured units can be merged into your population on a 3 captured units = 1 population.
• all slaves - any captured unit is yours to do with as you see fit.
• slaves and hostages - you can ransom back important people and make slaves of the rest. Requires "code of war"
• prisoners and hostages - rich/important individuals and bulk poor may be ransomed back or sold as slaves
• prisoners - requires "articles of war" treated similarly to criminals may be freed at end of war
• prisoners of war - allows trade of prisoners at end of war.
• Genevia convention on prisoners of war.

Note with any of these you can interrogate prisoners for information or convert them to your civ... Interrogation for information should come in somewhere in the latter classic era and conversion a bit latter.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Not sure I agree with the increased from slavery, but then I don't think slavery belongs in the economy civic. Also the idea of giving slaves arms and letting them fight in wars seems a bit dangerous, better to keep those that can fight in the arena and locked up the rest of the time.

I agreee with the increased as slaves on the whole over history were not accorded decent housing or sanitation.

I do agree with point #2. I wouldn't give arms to slaves unless I wanted to fight 2 fronts instead of 1.

JosEPh

 

[climat]

Edit: Climat, what do you think about a slight production increase in cities with the State religion to make it a bit more attractive? Also, I can bump up in cities with State Religion to +2 to offset unhappiness for 1 extra religion, but more than that should cause . What do you think?

Anything that will make DC more attractive is good for me.