C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[JosEPh_II]

I think you need to reread the Slavery Civic again Taxman.

That's +1 Gold from plantations, olive farms, silk farms, wineries
+1 Hammer from mines, shaft mines, modern mines, quarries, lumbermills, workshops
+1 Food from farms

Which makes it a +3 for AI never leaving it.

JosEPh

 

[Taxman66]

I was talking about Hydros suggestion. Doubling the amount of food it takes to grow is a huge penalty. Slavery has been the du jour form of labor for (give or take) 6 thousand years of our history across the majority of real civilizations and particularly for those that were the dominate ones of their eras.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I don't agree with this suggestion at all. The penalties for Slavery & Serfdom are so high, I wouldn't move off survivalism. Doubling the food needed to grow is a massive penalty. Unhealthiness for every cottage/hamlet etc... isn't quite as bad, but add on the additional 10% growth penalty it is not worth it for the little bit of extra gold.

Like I said thse were for RoM/AND so we would need to tweak it for C2C. Perhaps the Survivalism could have really bad stats. The exact stats are less important, the main point of this is that there is a Labor Civc category and we could have civics such as these.

 

[Il Principe]

I like the idea of a new "labour" category.

Apart from that: Could civics get boni from techs like some buildings do?
I came to that thought when working myself towards "divine right".. monarchy should get something from the concept of a king " by gods grace".
Just like closed borders would benefit fro mthe concept of nationalism.
Of course negative effects also make sense, but I would stay away from those for balancing, just adding positives to some of the "old" , early game civics to make them more competititve.

 

[ls612]

@Hydro:

I'm fine with moving around civics and tweaking them, but I'd like to refrain from adding new ones before V27 is released, as that could potentially cause large balance issues. The Slavery changes seem OK at first glance, that 100% Growth penalty should counter it's benefits.

@JosEPh:

Is your main concern about the Slavery the actual balance of it, the AI's valuation and constant use of it, or both?

@Koshling:

Will the AI correctly take into account the 100% increase in food needed to grow on a civic?

 

[strategyonly]

@Hydro:

I'm fine with moving around civics and tweaking them, but I'd like to refrain from adding new ones before V27 is released, as that could potentially cause large balance issues. The Slavery changes seem OK at first glance, that 100% Growth penalty should counter it's benefits.

@JosEPh:

Is your main concern about the Slavery the actual balance of it, the AI's valuation and constant use of it, or both?

@Koshling:

Will the AI correctly take into account the 100% increase in food needed to grow on a civic?

1. I agree with the non-adding of civics (for now).
2. I believe CivPlayer8 is making a good selection on the Slavery Civic, he's working on now.

 

[ls612]

2. I believe CivPlayer8 is making a good selection on the Slavery Civic, he's working on now.

I personally would prefer to have it the Labor civic category instead of the Slavery civic category, as issues of where Labor comes from have always been part of governments in history.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro:
I'm fine with moving around civics and tweaking them, but I'd like to refrain from adding new ones before V27 is released, as that could potentially cause large balance issues. The Slavery changes seem OK at first glance, that 100% Growth penalty should counter it's benefits.

Yeah the new civic category would be something after the freeze. I also would like to add possibly a Housing and Electricity civic which has been on the Afforess list for quite some time. These would all be stuff to add for v28.

 

[JosEPh_II]

ls612 wrote:Is your main concern about the Slavery the actual balance of it, the AI's valuation and constant use of it, or both?

I guess both. If the AI will not leave that Civic for supposedly better ones as the game progresses then it must have too strong of an attraction for the AI to ever leave. As is the case in the past and still today. And if the AI will not move off it then it must be the optimum Economy Civic.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I strongly agree with Joe's point there.

BUT, I also believe that Slavery was ever dominant throughout history to the point that it was only put a stop to here in the States a mere century or so ago. Therefore, it must've been a fairly good system for the society as a whole if not for the individuals that had to suffer through it. If I'm not mistaken the original Utopia proposition was based almost entirely on a system of slavery holding up the rest of society. In a sense, we'll have it again when we have cloning and mass automation (slavery of machines so to speak).

However, it really has needed to get off of the current economic civic line and onto a labor line. And that should happen ASAP imo because the fact that it does not potentially co-exist with the rest of the economic line is VERY irrational.

The proposition here does suffer somewhat from a lack of balance though, and I think could be easily rectified by making the base civic -50% growth (would help our early game to slow a bit too.)

I didn't look much at alternative benefits but taking such a major plunge from -100% growth at the next stage IS an effectively attractive offer even if you do start losing your slave capture capabilities. If I'm correct in assuming that DH completed his slave specialist redefinitions, I think it will make it all the more a valid option to move on from slavery for much enhanced growth. But keep in mind that slaves eat less food so even with the -100% growth factor, you won't gain quite as much as it seems to speed up growth in the next step and you won't lose quite as much growth to pick up slavery as it may seem at first either.

 

[crazyewok]

In my studies I noticed (in my opinion) one of the foremost reasons slavery is implemeneted is to prop up powers with small popluations. For example in the Romen Empire few had full roman citzenship and its small number of citizens was proped up by a large slave labour force. Same with the colonies of europe. Black slavery wasnt just Europe saying "hey we hate blacks" it was spurred by the need for quick cheap labour in the sparsly populated coloinies. Infact it was such a need for quick labour in the colonies brition even sent alot of non-blacks over to the Americas, west indies and later Australlia in the form of indentured servents. So is there a way to make it so that slavery and slavery like civics like serfdom are only really profitable in nations that have light populations or sparsly populated?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Someone just recently complained that the AI was using Oral Tradition instead of moving on the Written. There's a good reason for that. I too like the AI used to go to Written as soon as it became available thinking wow that extra 5% research is really going to make a difference. It doesn't. The added Maintenance cost for Written negates the research gain and you still have extra maintenance to overcome. I rarely use Written anymore and am better off as is the AI.

There are several Civics that are like the Oral /Written problem. In many of the categories the initial Civic is generally better than the next one, not all but quite a few. Or you need to get the 3rd or 4th Civic because the 2nd or 3rd is not as good as the Initial. And it's generally the one that add or swap maintenance costs or add an outright -Gold% for using the Civic. Survival and Charity come to mind right away on this one.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have to agree with Joseph, there are a number of civics I never bother with because the basic one is the best for my game style.

On Slavery. It needs probably needs to be removed completely and moddled totally differently. Instead each civic has an affect on the slaves you have. This seems to be a better model given the slavery that exists today in countries that are supposed to be running "emancipation".

 

[Taxman66]

Some of the civics are sneaky, in that they themselves are not that much better or even worse than the ones before them and their contemporaries... BUT, the building(s) that are specific to what appear to be a bad civic make them good. For example the Villa from Burgious (too lazy to look up the correct spelling)

 

[strategyonly]

Some of the civics are sneaky, in that they themselves are not that much better or even worse than the ones before them and their contemporaries... BUT, the building(s) that are specific to what appear to be a bad civic make them good. For example the Villa from Burgious (too lazy to look up the correct spelling)

Good point, i believe ?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Some of the civics are sneaky, in that they themselves are not that much better or even worse than the ones before them and their contemporaries... BUT, the building(s) that are specific to what appear to be a bad civic make them good. For example the Villa from Burgious (too lazy to look up the correct spelling)

I've been frustrated with that since ROM/AND! It always seems, too, like the 'link' to get you to the civopedia definition of those buildings never work.

 

[Il Principe]

Some of the civics are sneaky, in that they themselves are not that much better or even worse than the ones before them and their contemporaries... BUT, the building(s) that are specific to what appear to be a bad civic make them good. For example the Villa from Burgious (too lazy to look up the correct spelling)

Indeed. And unlike Joseph I use charity quite often, because althoug hthe gold cost hurts, the plus in health and consequently city growth soon trumps that. Depending on the situation it might take some time, but in the end bigger cities mean more gold

What I never use , although the AI seems quite fond of it, is matriarchy. I just like the addional hammers for partriarchy way too much.

And I already suggested making some earlier civics more viable later on when their replacements came ( as they are as of right now) through tech boni.
This is mainly agoernment/power problem I think. maybe society.

And I will try to convince you time and tiem again to make civics interact more
A nationalist strongarm junta dictator shouldget a penalty for open borders.

Since Iamat it: Coul open borders be changed? I just don´t see the reason for it to affect rev stability negativly ( debatable of course dependent on other civic choices). I could imagine a bonus to enemy spies though.

 

[strategyonly]

Indeed. And unlike Joseph I use charity quite often, because althoug hthe gold cost hurts, the plus in health and consequently city growth soon trumps that. Depending on the situation it might take some time, but in the end bigger cities mean more gold .

The main reason i use Charity from the Medieval Era especially is to get Militia, but you have to have a minimum of at least 15 workers for it to work correctly, then you start getting those FREE units.

 

[Il Principe]

The main reason i use Charity from the Medieval Era especially is to get Militia, but you have to have a minimum of at least 15 workers for it to work correctly, then you start getting those FREE units.

I never noticed
That´s what I love aobut this mod.. you can play on and on and still discover things you never noticed. Complexity for is great

 

[JosEPh_II]

Indeed. And unlike Joseph I use charity quite often, because althoug hthe gold cost hurts, the plus in health and consequently city growth soon trumps that. Depending on the situation it might take some time, but in the end bigger cities mean more gold

What I never use , although the AI seems quite fond of it, is matriarchy. I just like the addional hammers for partriarchy way too much.

And I already suggested making some earlier civics more viable later on when their replacements came ( as they are as of right now) through tech boni.
This is mainly agoernment/power problem I think. maybe society.

And I will try to convince you time and tiem again to make civics interact more
A nationalist strongarm junta dictator shouldget a penalty for open borders.

Since Iamat it: Coul open borders be changed? I just don´t see the reason for it to affect rev stability negativly ( debatable of course dependent on other civic choices). I could imagine a bonus to enemy spies though.

I still use charity sometimes, but since I've yet to get a v26 game to the point where I can unlock or discover the tech that gives militia (which I didn't know about, thnx SO) then it was for the most part a step down not up.

And since this New Civic system is really only 1 version old there is still some balancing/tweaking that will come about (at least I hope so).

JosEPh