C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[JosEPh_II]

@CIVPLayer8,

Please think about this post. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12231120&postcount=11

Yes it's mine but it's how I feel about the Mod's Civics in general. Maybe you are trying to go in this direction. I hope so.

JosEPh

 

[Il Principe]

In reply to your linked post:
I disagree, civics should interact MORE.
Give them set boni so to speak. ( Which might have the added benefit of making some of the more repressive early civics worthwhile in the late game)

As to your example: Militray civics including is strange, sure. But and crime make sense. Banditry and Mercenaries are not exactley military civics you connect with well disciplined troops, that don´t go searching for plunder among the civilian population

 

[GT Ranma]

@JosEPh:

I agree with part of your assessment.

I would like each 'part' of the Civics tree to do something specific, but have a lot of... leeway? for the player. For example, as I brought up before, a "Commerce" path, a "Military" path and a "Production" path. (With leeway to replace certain one in certain categories with say, a culture one, a health one, ect ect)

But I would mostly like the categories better defined (I am always arguing this, and will continue to argue this) and more transparency brought to the system. So first time players won't be so confused as to not use it at all (My roommate refuses to try to figure it out, and just picks the newest one when it is unlocked because it is all to confusing at first glance.)

Also, as an aside, we still need to work on 'normalizing' the civics, you guys have been doing great so far, but there is still a lot of work that can be done. @Civ: Did you fix the huge 100%+ maintenance shift for moving from one coinage to the other? We talked about it before.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

But I would mostly like the categories better defined (I am always arguing this, and will continue to argue this) and more transparency brought to the system. So first time players won't be so confused as to not use it at all (My roommate refuses to try to figure it out, and just picks the newest one when it is unlocked because it is all to confusing at first glance.)

I admit to playing similarly to you room mate - I just go with what the name of the civic means to me. Except I never change from the basic Borders civic and I never go with Waste to Sea as Waste Anywhere always turns out better.

 

[Koshling]

I admit to playing similarly to you room mate - I just go with what the name of the civic means to me. Except I never change from the basic Borders civic and I never go with Waste to Sea as Waste Anywhere always turns out better.

Interesting. Once I get Open Borders I usually keep it the entire game, but I tend to play a fairly trade-centric style.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I wait till I can get Open Borders and don't change from it. I still don't like the +1 attached to it.

Waste Anywhere till Landfills, never use Waste to Sea, too big a hit.

JosEPh

 

[GT Ranma]

I wait till I can get Open Borders and don't change from it. I still don't like the +1 attached to it.

Waste Anywhere till Landfills, never use Waste to Sea, too big a hit.

JosEPh

Exactly. +1 Internet for you.

Hmm, on this note, DH, is there something we could to to make it so people like you and my roomy would find the Civics system a little less, hard to follow?

 

[CIVPlayer8]

Updates:
-Changed Democracy, Totalitarianism, and Technocracy
-Fixed Borders now exclusive to Closed Borders, Skilled Workers Only, and Secure Borders

I have been busy, but I have been loosely following along. I apologize for my absence. I'll post more on my thoughts tomorrow morning, hopefully. I'll get around to adding Meritocracy soon. Since we are done with the Government civics, what shall we get around to next?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@CIVPlayer8

I did the following ...

- Added Burn Trash Civic.
- Tweaked other Garbage civics, especially Waste to Sea.
- Fixed the decimal error. Changed from 0.1 to 1. It can be altered later if you want a new value. I just wanted to get it working. See this post for details on the error.

I guess it was a good thing I was already working on these changes when the error occurred from your update. However it was a bit frustrating to have you update out of the blue right when I was about to commit my new Garbage stuff. Especially when you had been MIA for so many days.

Anywho glad your back. And I hope you like my civic changes.

EDIT: Thanks to AI Andy I added some properties to civics.

- Added -10 Air Pollution and -5 Water Pollution per turn in each city for Green [Economy] Civic.
- Added -5 Air Pollution and -10 Water Pollution per turn in each city for Green Agriculture [Agriculture] Civic.
- Added +5 Air Pollution and +10 Water Pollution per turn in each city for Corporate Agriculture [Agriculture] Civic.

EDIT2: Some More ....

- Added +10 Disease per turn in each city for Garbage Anywhere [Garbage] Civic.
- Added +10 Air Pollution per turn in each city for Burn Garbage [Garbage] Civic.
- Added +10 Water Pollution per turn in each city for Waste to Sea [Garbage] Civic.

EDIT3

- Added +5 Air Pollution and +5 Water Pollution per turn in each city for Landfill [Garbage] Civic.
- Added +10 Air Pollution and +10 Water Pollution per turn in each city for Waste Importation [Garbage] Civic.
- Added +5 Air Pollution and +5 Water Pollution per turn in each city for Waste to Energy [Garbage] Civic.

EDIT4

- Swapped order of Corporatist and Planned civics since Industrialism comes one column before Communism.
- Swapped order of Unmanned Warfare and Cloning civics since Military Robotics comes before Gene Enhancement.
- Swapped order of Church and Public Works civics since Meditation comes before City Planning.
- Swapped order of Compulsory Education and Propaganda civics since Compulsory Education comes before Fascism.
- Swapped order of Corporate Agriculture and Privatized Agriculture civics since Corporation comes before Economics.

 

[Flinx]

What is the base for city limit scaling?

Reason for my question is the fact that i'm currently playing a giant map and checking the Civic info against the city limit numbers ingame always gives me the smaller number.

Anarchy in CivicInfo - 3 cities - ingame 2 cities
Chiefdom in CivicInfo - 7 cities - ingame 5 cities
Despotism in CivicInfo - 25 cities - ingame 21 cities
Republic in CivicInfo - 20 cities - ingame 17 cities

I have nothing against city limits and scaling them, but i think the base numbers in the civicInfo should be tied to normal map size. Playing bigger maps should give greater values, not a decrease.

No reply.
Anyone stumbling in the forum with any question gets a quicker response as some people supporting the mod.
No need to be disencouraged, so i asked again:

I hate to quote myself but since i got no answer or an solution via SVn i just ask again:

What is the base for city limit scaling?

Reason for my question is the fact that i'm currently playing a giant map and checking the Civic info against the city limit numbers ingame always gives me the smaller number.

Anarchy in CivicInfo - 3 cities - ingame 2 cities
Chiefdom in CivicInfo - 7 cities - ingame 5 cities
Despotism in CivicInfo - 25 cities - ingame 21 cities
Republic in CivicInfo - 20 cities - ingame 17 cities

I have nothing against city limits and scaling them, but i think the base numbers in the civicInfo should be tied to normal map size. Playing bigger maps should give greater values, not a decrease.

Again i'd like to know: what world size is used as base for the city scaling?

I still play on a giant map and i cannot imagine that gigantic or any bigger world size should be the base for scaling.

I'd like to see the numbers of the city limit attached to world size normal and calculated by the ratio between the world sizes.

This was the reply i got:

I halved the numbers back in V28 development, so they should be now 1/2 of what the quoted numbers are.

Now my answer and my request for clarification:

I know the numbers since i already had a look in the Civic file.

Your quick answer is appreciated but does not refer to my question: which is the base world size and how are the calculations done.

Perhaps you can point me where i can found the underlying math and change it to my liking and understanding, given it is not SDK work.

Thanks in advance.

Since the modder in question is so busy i figured it out myself:
base for city scaling is world size gigantic.
For my taste at least two options to big, i'd prefer normal or huge as base.

If someone could point me to the file where i can alter the settings to my likings i'd be more than pleased.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@CIVPlayer8

Under Military civic you have Vassalage. But it requires Feudalism. Why doesn't it require Vassalage tech?

EDIT: I made a new page on my online C2C Reference Guide and I added all the current civics. Hopefully I got them all correct.

C2C - Civics

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Flinx,
ls612 is only available from 3:30pm to 10pm CST. And since he's in charge of this area of your concern might I suggest PM'ing him? I don't recall him saying which file these parameters live in.

And yes it sure looks like newbies do get more attention it seems than long time supporters.

And looks like Hydro is taking over for CIVPlayer8?

JosEPh

 

[GT Ranma]

And looks like Hydro is taking over for CIVPlayer8?

JosEPh

*shrug* I assume he's adding new 'parameters' onto the civics.

Now, why? I am not sure, it seems to me he made already bad civics into worse civics... Sure, it's more realistic to give them pollution, but that makes their disadvantages outweigh their positives by even more -..-

 

[CIVPlayer8]

Fixed Borders is where Culture has a lesser impact on the sway and moving of borders and military might has more impact. For that reason I don't think it should be under the Border Civics but rather in the Government, Power, and Military Civics and maybe a few in the Religion Civics and Rule Civics.

Civics I think would fit the bill are:
Government: Despotism, Monarchy.
Rule: Vassalage
Power: Sovereignity, Legislature, Divine Right, Single Party
Military: Conscription, Vassalage, Volunteer Army, (not sure of the later ones, what they are or represent)
Religion: Divine Cult, Intolerant

Cheers

Well, the problem with attaching Fixed Borders to this many civics is that every civilization is bound to have one of those. I think I'd like to keep it with the Border Civics, to simplify it a bit.

Same here, i have NO money and i am in the Yellow nearly 3/4 of the time, , then you add in subdue animals you want to keep and POOF you are in the RED, this just does not SEEM right IMO. Thats why i though maybe 1 more city might work, but then it only adds to the problem of But at lest if we increase it by only 1 city it might help out if you dont keep any animals at all??

EDIT: Actually i just also noticed, if you want to be a Warmonger, there is NO WAY you can, you'd have to RAZE each and every city and be left with hardly nothing also??

(Attached) there is so many resources avail, i need that city, but CANT because it would put me in the RED for financial difficulty, now i dont know if it is strictly civics, i kind of doubt it, i am sure its a combination of LH Traits and Civics, but its just not very good gameplay when its like this Besides being bad for other gamers also

(sidenote) i do have alot of animals in a city, but it didnt matter in the PreH Era, i butchered all of them and was still in the Yellow.(pic 2)

I have made it a goal of mine to reduce maintenance costs of civics to below 25%. So they should be dropping. If they are still too high, however, there might be other sources of this high maintenance.

I guess I'm one of the few who likes the maintenance costs high. It makes over-expansion a financial problem (as it should be) as opposed to a civil problem. In my current game, I can barely keep a large empire and large army in ancient without going into the red. Rapid overexpansion becomes a serious issue for both the player and the AI, the tech leaders become the small or medium sized civs as opposed to the giant empires. Rapid expansion is no longer the clear path to victory, but instead the clear path to stagnation and paralysis.

I really feel this is the right direction.

Are you killtech reincarnated, my arch nemesis? The same killtech that talked Afforess into doing just what you are? The same killtech that took the Fun out of AND and started it's near death spiral?

Just askin', cause your proposals and postings sound just like him.

Oh well, maybe if you get this to stick then "maybe" the coding for "City Limits by Civics" Can be stripped out of the code. It's really useless overkill with your set up. Then you can remove the Trait Expansionist from the Leader Traits will you're at it. Won't need that either. But One City Challenges Option will become usefull again.

And will the derogatory term "city spamming" be brought back too for ppl that play the expansionist way? Since we're back to killing it off again.

Oh H*** just do it anyway! We'll adjust!...... or just stop playing. There are always choices, or are there?

JosEPh

I'm starting to think it needs to be an option that you can change in the BUG menu. Maintenance Costs: Lowest -> Low -> Medium -> High -> Extreme.
Would this be a good solution? I know many of us like to play very expansionist games, while some like to slow it down.

@ CIVPlayer8

If you are around there are 2 hings that need to be looked at.

1. Adding the Meritocracy Civic.

2. Making Subsistence [Economy] more appealing. I am not sure why anyone would take it when they could take Barter or Slavery instead. They are just so much better than Subsistence.

I'll start work on them both.

@CIVPLayer8,

Please think about this post. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12231120&postcount=11

Yes it's mine but it's how I feel about the Mod's Civics in general. Maybe you are trying to go in this direction. I hope so.

JosEPh

Yes, I'm trying to go in that direction. I only hope I'll staying that course.

I wait till I can get Open Borders and don't change from it. I still don't like the +1 attached to it.

Waste Anywhere till Landfills, never use Waste to Sea, too big a hit.

JosEPh

Maybe I should change the +1 to +disease, more realistic an effect.

 

[ls612]

@Flinx,
ls612 is only available from 3:30pm to 10pm CST. And since he's in charge of this area of your concern might I suggest PM'ing him? I don't recall him saying which file these parameters live in.

And yes it sure looks like newbies do get more attention it seems than long time supporters.

And looks like Hydro is taking over for CIVPlayer8?

JosEPh

Sorry for ignoring this for a while, I didn't really notice it.

As for the original question, the code lives in the DLL, specifically in CvCivicInfos::getCityLimits. It looks like this.

	//ls612: Option to scale City Limits by Mapsize
	else if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_SCALE_CITY_LIMITS))
	{
		int iCityLimit;

		WorldSizeTypes eSize = GC.getMapINLINE().getWorldSize();

		if ( eSize != NO_WORLDSIZE)
		{
			/*Old Scaling Formula by Koshling
			int iNormalMapArea = GC.getWorldInfo(WORLDSIZE_STANDARD).getGridWidth()*GC.getWorldInfo(WORLDSIZE_STANDARD).getGridHeight();
			int iThisMapArea = GC.getWorldInfo(eSize).getGridWidth()*GC.getWorldInfo(eSize).getGridHeight();
			int iNormalMapDefaultCivs = GC.getWorldInfo(WORLDSIZE_STANDARD).getDefaultPlayers();
			int iThisMapDefaultCivs = GC.getWorldInfo(eSize).getDefaultPlayers();
				Round to the nearest
			iCityLimit = (m_iCityLimit == 0  ? 0 : std::max(1, (2*m_iCityLimit+1)*iThisMapArea*iNormalMapDefaultCivs/(2*iNormalMapArea*iThisMapDefaultCivs)));
			*/
			//ls612: New scaling formula
			int iMapLandArea = GC.getWorldInfo(eSize).getGridHeight() * GC.getWorldInfo(eSize).getGridWidth() * 48;
			iMapLandArea /= 10;
			int iNumCivs = GC.getWorldInfo(eSize).getDefaultPlayers();
			int iCitiesPerCiv = 0;
			if (iNumCivs != 0)
			{
				 //One City per 21 tiles (size of a Fat Cross)
				iCitiesPerCiv = std::max(1, ((iMapLandArea / iNumCivs) / 21));
			}
			//Multiply by 100 and divide by 20 (so multiply by 5)
			int iCityLimitModifierTimes100 = iCitiesPerCiv  * 5;
			//Make sure to only apply this if the civic has no city limit in the first place
			if (m_iCityLimit != 0)
			{
				iCityLimit = std::max(1, ((iCityLimitModifierTimes100 * m_iCityLimit) / 100));
			}
			else
			{
				iCityLimit = 0;
			}
		}
		return iCityLimit;
	}

I can't see anything horribly wrong with it at first glance, but if someone else does please tell me.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

@Hydro

I did the following ...
- Added Burn Trash Civic.
- Tweaked other Garbage civics, especially Waste to Sea.
- Fixed the decimal error. Changed from 0.1 to 1. It can be altered later if you want a new value. I just wanted to get it working. See this post for details on the error.

Cool! The new Garbage Civic is a + in my book. And thanks for fixing that error. But I'm not so sure about adding the "+ Pollution" to the actual civic. The building unlocked by Waste to Sea already gives more pollution, it seems kinda redundant.

I guess it was a good thing I was already working on these changes when the error occurred from your update. However it was a bit frustrating to have you update out of the blue right when I was about to commit my new Garbage stuff. Especially when you had been MIA for so many days.

Did I screw up your work? I'm sorry.

Anywho glad your back. And I hope you like my civic changes.

EDIT: Thanks to AI Andy I added some properties to civics.

Thanks, and they seem pretty good. Not sure about the +water pollution/air pollution, but I do like the +Disease for garbage Anywhere, and the +Air Pollution for Burn Garbage.

 

[Hydromancerx]

And looks like Hydro is taking over for CIVPlayer8?

First of all he was gone for a while so I tried to step in and do some stuff that I had been wanting to do with the civs since before he even came. Which was was adding things like air and water pollution to civics. Remember that I made Garbage, Education, Language, Immigration and Agriculture civics. Plus a few random civics sprinkled throughout the other civics.

He has mainly been focusing on the other civics so I thought it would not bother him too much with stuff I could do myself. Not to mention after Vokarya shuffled around the tech tree it made some civics out of order. So I helped put them in correct tech order when listing them. Something to help CIVPlayer8 out.

@Hydro

Cool! The new Garbage Civic is a + in my book. And thanks for fixing that error. But I'm not so sure about adding the "+ Pollution" to the actual civic. The building unlocked by Waste to Sea already gives more pollution, it seems kinda redundant.

Did I screw up your work? I'm sorry.

Thanks, and they seem pretty good. Not sure about the +water pollution/air pollution, but I do like the +Disease for garbage Anywhere, and the +Air Pollution for Burn Garbage.

1. I can always lower the impact on the building. I want those civics to actually have something to think about when choosing them. You can always not build a building but its harder not to take a civic.

2. No prob. I was just caught off guard. The important thing is you are back!

3. Thanks. I also wanted to add some increased flammability to burn garbage. And the reasoning for Green and Green Agriculture is that they are helping reduce pollution by the action of the people and farmers. Likewise the Corporate Agriculture is doing the opposite.

A similar thing goes for the garbage civics. I would like to have these tested out for this cycle. If they need to be changed in the future we can tweak them. But for now I would like to see them untouched to see if they really work like I imagined them.

 

[Flinx]

Thanks for your inview.
DLL is far out, i'm glad to poke around with some XML.

But what i do not get is why you made the area of an 2-border city as base for calculating.

I for one like and play the city work radius enhancement for the three tiles radius.
Aside from the fact that i cannot DLL or python i feel that this isn't addressed.

Next thing i would have done is to take the numbers given in the Civic file and bound them to the several world size ratios.

You set the standard for the base as world size standard.
I play world size huge.
So the ratio beteween them is 1:2 or 2:1, please take this as an example; i know this is not the real ratio.
So the numbers for my world should be twice the ones for the standard map.

Combine this with a corrector factor for the number of civs (applied as standard by the game per world size) and you get a nice factor for a multiplier of the numbers laid down in the civic file.

But aside from this i already fond a solution for myself, i just put in the numbers i figured out for my preferred world size.

 

[ls612]

Thanks for your inview.
DLL is far out, i'm glad to poke around with some XML.

But what i do not get is why you made the area of an 2-border city as base for calculating.

Because that is how the AI sets how far apart it keeps it's cities, assuming everything else is equal IIRC.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hmm, on this note, DH, is there something we could to to make it so people like you and my roomy would find the Civics system a little less, hard to follow?

Make them easier to understand by having it split into main affects and secondary effects, Not sure how that would be done.

No reply.
Anyone stumbling in the forum with any question gets a quicker response as some people supporting the mod.
No need to be disencouraged, so i asked again:

@Flinx,

And yes it sure looks like newbies do get more attention it seems than long time supporters.

It all depends on the phase of the moon and which quarter the wind is blowing from. Plus of course your girl/boy friend. Your wife/husband should be your girl/boy friend or you are doing it wrong... or French where it is reasonable to have both or two or whatever...

Mostly new people ask very easy questions or ones that have been answered many times over. People who have been round awhile need more considered answers.