C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[JosEPh_II]

I'm glad we are reaching an agreement on something. I was starting to get very discouraged. It seemed that I couldn't/wasn't making my arguments clear enough to be understood. It was beginning to feel like the AND forum and the Maintenance Wars all over again. (you would've had to be there, They wanted to "tar and feather" me because of what I saw as wrong and I voiced it.)

Maybe I should give more detail, but when someone posts a wordy post they usually get ignored.

I'm just trying to get ppl to think and look at more than one side of a subject.

But when I see a game feature that is contrary to the game principles I just have to speak up. It's a fault of mine. I see something not right/wrong I say something.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

I'm glad we are reaching an agreement on something. I was starting to get very discouraged. It seemed that I couldn't/wasn't making my arguments clear enough to be understood. It was beginning to feel like the AND forum and the Maintenance Wars all over again. (you would've had to be there, They wanted to "tar and feather" me because of what I saw as wrong and I voiced it.)

Maybe I should give more detail, but when someone posts a wordy post they usually get ignored.

I'm just trying to get ppl to think and look at more than one side of a subject.

But when I see a game feature that is contrary to the game principles I just have to speak up. It's a fault of mine. I see something not right/wrong I say something.

JosEPh

YOU will definitely NEVER be ignored in these C2C forums threads, buddy. Say what you like and say what you mean, thats all thats to it. The more ideas/suggestions the better, things get done right, even if "we" do not agree, heck i have been wrong around 20 times lately and have been correctly here alot all to the better of the mod, so take it as you may.

 

[EldrinFal]

I'm glad we are reaching an agreement on something. I was starting to get very discouraged. It seemed that I couldn't/wasn't making my arguments clear enough to be understood. It was beginning to feel like the AND forum and the Maintenance Wars all over again. (you would've had to be there, They wanted to "tar and feather" me because of what I saw as wrong and I voiced it.)

Maybe I should give more detail, but when someone posts a wordy post they usually get ignored.

I'm just trying to get ppl to think and look at more than one side of a subject.

But when I see a game feature that is contrary to the game principles I just have to speak up. It's a fault of mine. I see something not right/wrong I say something.

JosEPh

I try to be vocal as well. But I also realize I'm not always right either-- or sometimes it is a matter of preference. It's good to argue your points, but also be open to other ideas too

There will always be differing opinions on how to do things, so we just make adjustments as we go along until we find the best middle-ground we can. The more people who participate, the better choices the modders can make with C2C.

Just keep in mind that modders have a lot going on, so if something isn't changed right away, it doesn't mean you are ignored, it could just mean that they are busy Rest assured though that your input is welcome and changes are being implemented due to YOUR observations.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

One of my main reasons for choosing any civic is what it does to my Great People production. In most games where I get to the modern era, I will have had 4 golden ages from great people and be working on my fifth (five different GP). This is much easier now with the Great Doctor.

I like fixed borders but do not like what happens when I give a city back to a vassal only to have all the forts near the city remain mine. I have to go back and destroy the forts so teh land returns to my vassal.

 

[EldrinFal]

One of my main reasons for choosing any civic is what it does to my Great People production. In most games where I get to the modern era, I will have had 4 golden ages from great people and be working on my fifth (five different GP). This is much easier now with the Great Doctor.

I like fixed borders but do not like what happens when I give a city back to a vassal only to have all the forts near the city remain mine. I have to go back and destroy the forts so teh land returns to my vassal.

I like +GP too, but my reasoning for lowering it with Pacifism is that I didn't feel Pacifism alone meant DOUBLE the rate for generating GP.

I've re-adjusted the proposed values on my earlier post so GP is at +50% now for Pacifism.

 

[climat]

Well, it seems the debate is adjourned?
It's not important info, but Slavery and Pacifism don't trigger FB.

 

[EldrinFal]

Well, it seems the debate is adjourned?
It's not important info, but Slavery and Pacifism don't trigger FB.

Feel free to add any thoughts Climat. We're in a non-bug mod freeze at the moment so it appears I won't be adding the changes until the 13th or so.

 

[Koshling]

Feel free to add any thoughts Climat. We're in a non-bug mod freeze at the moment so it appears I won't be adding the changes until the 13th or so.

I don't have any problem with tuning of existing values in the bug fix period. Just don't want us to be trying to add lots of new buildings or units or worse still mechanisms between now and v18 release. Moving entire civics around would be too risky, but value tweaks should be ok.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>... but Slavery and Pacifism don't trigger FB.

No they don't. They are just additives to the overall problem of the AI sticking with less than ideal Civics and choices.

What I've been trying to point out is that the AI will get "set" in it's ways with these Civics and FB and CL (with this Option turned On)and will not come out of that set even when much better Civics and Non FB options/civics later becomes available to them. When an AI will Hunker down with 6 cities (CL effect) adopt Pacifism and then stick with FB for the entire game and Cultural Victory is Not a victory setting, but Conquest is, then something is terribly wrong. At least it seems that way to me.

Maybe I'm missing something if you all don't see it as a problem? I just really dislike it when every AI in my game converts to Pcfsm and never does anything else. Never attack me never attack each other. They will upon occasion declare war on another AI but they don't Do anything with that declaration because they are unable to "see" past Pcfsm to get a better Civic to aid in their expansion. I truly believe that if my longest v17 game hadn't crashed I could've played the whole game without ever having had to face an invasion. And Conquest is one of the Victory conditions set for that game.

I'll stop now and you all can get on with your business.

JosEPh (Stubborn Missouri born Mule)

 

[climat]

Actually, I entirely agree with you in this matter, and I don't like FB, either.

 

[strategyonly]

Never attack me never attack each other. They will upon occasion declare war on another AI but they don't Do anything with that declaration because they are unable to "see" past Pcfsm to get a better Civic to aid in their expansion. I truly believe that if my longest v17 game hadn't crashed I could've played the whole game without ever having had to face an invasion. And Conquest is one of the Victory conditions set for that game.
JosEPh (Stubborn Missouri born Mule)

Actually THIS is a good point, and it is TRUE.

 

[EldrinFal]

No they don't. They are just additives to the overall problem of the AI sticking with less than ideal Civics and choices.

What I've been trying to point out is that the AI will get "set" in it's ways with these Civics and FB and CL (with this Option turned On)and will not come out of that set even when much better Civics and Non FB options/civics later becomes available to them. When an AI will Hunker down with 6 cities (CL effect) adopt Pacifism and then stick with FB for the entire game and Cultural Victory is Not a victory setting, but Conquest is, then something is terribly wrong. At least it seems that way to me.

Maybe I'm missing something if you all don't see it as a problem? I just really dislike it when every AI in my game converts to Pcfsm and never does anything else. Never attack me never attack each other. They will upon occasion declare war on another AI but they don't Do anything with that declaration because they are unable to "see" past Pcfsm to get a better Civic to aid in their expansion. I truly believe that if my longest v17 game hadn't crashed I could've played the whole game without ever having had to face an invasion. And Conquest is one of the Victory conditions set for that game.

I'll stop now and you all can get on with your business.

JosEPh (Stubborn Missouri born Mule)

I think we all agree that Pacifism and other Civics need tuning. And since Koshling has given his blessing, I will go ahead and do some tweaking with the values and that will get some changes into v18 so you have them in your game Joseph. They will likely still need more tweaking, but at least we're moving forward.

In regards to your post however, in my previous long game, the AI declared war on me on more than one occasion. That isn't to say he was using the best civic available for war, but I did have quite a number of conflicts.

Let's see how the new adjustments turn out. Maybe to save you the download of the whole C2C, if you're interested, I can post the Civics XML.

 

[EldrinFal]

Next two Civics I think may need some changes are Chiefdom and Despotism. Below are the changes I am considering. Please comment if you have thoughts on the matter. Current values are in parenthesis when applicable.

Chiefdom

• +2 in All Cities (+3 in All Cities)
• Remove: +1 per Military Unit in City
• Remove: No in Capital
• +5% required for Growth in each City
• Free Military Units = 10% of Population (20% of Population)

Despotism

• Upkeep Low (Medium)
• No foreign trade
• Foreign corporations have no effect
• -10% Great Person
• +25% Great General
• +5% in Capital
• -5% in All Cities
• -10% in All Cities
• +5% in All Cities
• +2 per Military Unit in a City (+1 )
• +2 in All Cities (+1 in All Cities)
• Remove: +1 for each 10% Foreign Culture in a City
• +10% required in each City to Grow (+30%)
• +10% bonus in Capital (+25%)
• Free Military Units = 20% of Population (10%)
• +25% Military Unit Production (+30%)
• +50% to build Barracks, Garrison, Arena, Fighting Pit, Armourer, Monument of Dictator, Cryogenic Prison, Biological Warfare Lab, Weapon Factory, Military Satellites
• -10% War Weariness (0%)

Civic Philosophies

Chiefdom : Fine for smaller armies and shorter wars, Chief collects some tribute or offerings from his people, but doesn't rule by tyranny (though presence of his soldiers enforces his rule)

Despotism : A better choice for a bit more warmongering, despot rules with an iron fist clamping down on dissent in his nation, especially capital. Despot collects tribute gold: and ) from his subjects, and forces them to work a bit harder at the expense of culture and science growth.

 

[EldrinFal]

Based on Joseph's testing of war weariness, I'm going to lower the later gov't settings a bit.

Despotism -10% from 0%
Monarchy -5% from 0%
Republic +5% from +25%
Democracy +10% from +50%
Federal +10% from +75%
Fascist -25% from -50%

I encourage others to test with these new values and report any noticeable issues. Thanks.

 

[Hydromancerx]

YOU will definitely NEVER be ignored in these C2C forums threads, buddy. Say what you like and say what you mean, thats all thats to it. The more ideas/suggestions the better, things get done right, even if "we" do not agree, heck i have been wrong around 20 times lately and have been correctly here alot all to the better of the mod, so take it as you may.

Indeed we value your wisdom and opinions JosEPh. In fact you not only voice you opinion but typically explain why and how you want it changed. This is exactly what we like to hear. We may not always agree, but that's the point of a forum like this to discuss things and hear others views on topics.

Just keep in mind that modders have a lot going on, so if something isn't changed right away, it doesn't mean you are ignored, it could just mean that they are busy Rest assured though that your input is welcome and changes are being implemented due to YOUR observations.

That is very true. If you were around the AND forum before I learned how to mod, I would beg Afforess to make my stuff. And not only beg but practically lay it all out for him. He got tired of me fast and eventually taught me how to mod so I would stop bothering him with requests. This the best thing he ever did. As the old saying goes, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.". And I have been "fishing" ever since.

 

[Koshling]

Based on Joseph's testing of war weariness, I'm going to lower the later gov't settings a bit.

Despotism -10% from 0%
Monarchy -5% from 0%
Republic +5% from +25%
Democracy +10% from +50%
Federal +10% from +75%
Fascist -25% from -50%

I encourage others to test with these new values and report any noticeable issues. Thanks.

I'm concerned you might be over-egging the WW chnages. Reason being we already chnaged the underlying mechanic to make it far less severe if you're not losing a ton of units (so well fought wars get less WW essentially than they used to), and since Joseph doesn't have the SVN all his experiences are without those changes. The direction of chnage seems right in all cases, I just think you're overdoign the magnitude until we have better experience with the modified WW system (when it may or may not turn out to still be needed)

 

[JosEPh_II]

It's true that I don't have access to the new way of generating WW thru units. And for a Non SVN version those levels that Eldrin posted do allow for War and Overseas War. WW will build but not shut you down unless you are losing badly. It's a slower degree of build up and not a wall hitting you in the face very rapidly.

For SVN version testing I would suggest that you double the New level Except for Fascist. It should not be allowed to have so large a Bonus.

Also in the file I posted there was some unfinished changes for Communism. Their Military and hammer production was unchanged but their Food production was as was the Cost of producing Mil Units, Upped (I grew up hearing and seeing in the news the food shortages that the Russian and Chinese ppl suffered thru while the Iron Curtain still stood. And how these Gov'ts were bankrupting their economies to field their huge Military budgets). So I started to make changes to reflect this. Lenin and Marx's Communistic Society dream Never was realized and in fact could not be sustained. In the Game I feel that Communism should be a War Mongers Gov't that suppresses the pop to field a large military BUT also have a Research bonus, It can't be denied that Russia's Science community was very inventive.

JosEPh

 

[climat]

Wasn't Communism removed? It was Afforess's decision, so C2C doesn't have to follow that, but I agree with him.

 

[EldrinFal]

Wasn't Communism removed? It was Afforess's decision, so C2C doesn't have to follow that, but I agree with him.

I think it was. I believe "Communism" is blocked out in the Civics file. But it could reappear in my overhaul later so Jo's thoughts are welcome.

I'm concerned you might be over-egging the WW chnages. Reason being we already chnaged the underlying mechanic to make it far less severe if you're not losing a ton of units (so well fought wars get less WW essentially than they used to), and since Joseph doesn't have the SVN all his experiences are without those changes. The direction of chnage seems right in all cases, I just think you're overdoign the magnitude until we have better experience with the modified WW system (when it may or may not turn out to still be needed)

I can bring the numbers up if you think they're reduced too much. I'm also wondering if in Joseph's game, if his enemies (or one person in general) had a bunch of the ones that cause other Civ's WW to double or triple.

 

[Koshling]

I think it was. I believe "Communism" is blocked out in the Civics file. But it could reappear in my overhaul later so Jo's thoughts are welcome.



I can bring the numbers up if you think they're reduced too much. I'm also wondering if in Joseph's game, if his enemies (or one person in general) had a bunch of the ones that cause other Civ's WW to double or triple.

That's also possible I guess. Anyway - I'd go for half way between what they were and what you were propoing most recently or V18 and we'll see how that plays and adjust more after if we need to.