C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[ls612]

1. Well Mind control was originally in Education but CIVPlayer8 moved it.

2. I don't think recycling should be limited to a civic. You should be able to recycle independent upon the civic choice.

3a. Green Card is already covered with Skilled Workers.

3b. Refugee camp is already a building.

3c. Wealthy people only? I do not think that is realistic.

4. That seems more like a building or wonder than a civic.

5. How would you ever specify which neighbor?

6. I don't think a world language would ever be possible. However the universal translator is as close as you can get. Which is already a civic.

7. That seems too much like barter or metals.

3c: Sounds like Singapore to me.

 

[Hydromancerx]

3c: Sounds like Singapore to me.

I stand corrected. Nevermind then.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Refugee camps will be a tile improvement when I get more of "White Lies, Black Ops" in game. It will be built by a refugee unit, probably in someones cultural area and will be a source of crime and illness until you send in diplomats, missionaries and healers. At which point some worker and military units may spawn to support you. Ignore them or put your diplomats and spies into ones in another nation and watch rebels, partisans, bandits and the like spawn.

 

[Il Principe]

As to slavery being OP: I neer ever use it. It might benefit my economy somewhat, but the reduced city growth is nasty, so is the 2 in the time it comes around. The 2 are of coure easily compensated for. But then the slave market gives even mroe of that.
And unlike Joseph I play with revolutions, and slavery is not exactely beneficial for your rev index.
With decent other, stabelizing and healthy civics I might consider it.. but by that time there are better economic choices available most of the time.

 

[Yid]

1. Well Mind control was originally in Education but CIVPlayer8 moved it.

- Supercomputer: a Supercomputer manages the state. Decisions are made and laws are creates by complex algorithms. Enables Supercomputer (National Wonder) which acts like another palace; +money, -freedom.

4. That seems more like a building or wonder than a civic.

Well, this is the setting in many science fiction settings, like the Paranoia Roleplaying, or the movie Logans Run.

6. I don't think a world language would ever be possible. However the universal translator is as close as you can get. Which is already a civic.

Maybe in our world a world language seems impossible, but in another world it could. It also would be a lot more low-tech than the universal translator.

Maybe it also means that others just speak your language because so many people do. This could mean that the world language would be more important the more powerful you are. Why am I writing this in English anyway? Because it is the de facto world language in the western hemisphere, and (for me) the language of the internet.

the "Lengua Franca" (French) in the middle ages would be another example. It was at least spoken by the nobility in many European countries.

 

[Il Principe]

Maybe in our world a world language seems impossible, but in another world it could. It also would be a lot more low-tech than the universal translator.

Maybe it also means that others just speak your language because so many people do. This could mean that the world language would be more important the more powerful you are. Why am I writing this in English anyway? Because it is the de facto world language in the western hemisphere, and (for me) the language of the internet.

the "Lengua Franca" (French) in the middle ages would be another example. It was at least spoken by the nobility in many European countries.

Same went for latin for a while. And english is not only dominating the western hemisphere today.
In many a sci-fi scenario ´s Chineese. In Asia Chineese was already what french once was in Europe. And there was the failed try with Esparanto.
BUT I think we don´t need itas a civic, as plausible as it is since we got uiversal translator.

I would be more of anitnerest if we had language as a whole game layer, like diseases or crime maybe, spreading along trade routes, influenced byculture levels and relegion ( not to mention freed clonies, and other vassal states). But then again that is far off, if ever coming.
Would be fun though. To "adopt" a language like a religion, influencing diplomacy, trade and revolutions

 

[Yid]

I would be more of anitnerest if we had language as a whole game layer, like diseases or crime maybe, spreading along trade routes, influenced byculture levels and relegion ( not to mention freed clonies, and other vassal states). But then again that is far off, if ever coming.
Would be fun though. To "adopt" a language like a religion, influencing diplomacy, trade and revolutions

Very true!

To be honest, the Language "Civic" just behaves very different than Power or Education. Language is more a thing that evolves, or mixes, and decays. This makes it more like a religion. Many game mechanics of religions sound very similar: "Missionaries" could be "Language Teachers", "We do speak the same language" sounds a bit like "we believe in the same god", temples are schools, cathedrals==universities (at least the language branches).

I would also agree that a language can be composed of other languages (no, not Esperanto), but say modern English has 40% of Latin, 30% Germanic and 30% Celtic roots. (don't hit me, I'm just making up an example out of guesses), and yes, it has a lot to do with cultures, which just evokes the idea in my mind that the culture wonders could sometimes also create a "Language" thingy (like a "Religion" thingy).

But on the other hand many of the (later) language civics do not handle language itself but how I handle different languages than my own. There is definitively a semantic breach between "native language" and "interpreters". I would say you can have both at the same time.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Same went for latin for a while. And english is not only dominating the western hemisphere today.
In many a sci-fi scenario ´s Chineese. In Asia Chineese was already what french once was in Europe. And there was the failed try with Esparanto.
BUT I think we don´t need itas a civic, as plausible as it is since we got uiversal translator.

I would be more of anitnerest if we had language as a whole game layer, like diseases or crime maybe, spreading along trade routes, influenced byculture levels and relegion ( not to mention freed clonies, and other vassal states). But then again that is far off, if ever coming.
Would be fun though. To "adopt" a language like a religion, influencing diplomacy, trade and revolutions

Well I know in one mod they use Languages like religions. However in doing so it messes up religions. If we could have a separate religion-like part of the game that would be great. But as it is not its kind of weird to pick Language English or Hinduism. Or using Inquisitors to rid your city of Spanish.

 

[Il Principe]

Well I know in one mod they use Languages like religions. However in doing so it messes up religions. If we could have a separate religion-like part of the game that would be great. But as it is not its kind of weird to pick Language English or Hinduism. Or using Inquisitors to rid your city of Spanish.

An inquisitor like unit for getting rid of unwanted languages would be cool though in this context. And not unrealistic. There are enough examples of languages being forbidden by the authorities. First one coming to mind is an area around the German/French border, that changed ownership quite often, where the germans outlawed french when theyhad it, and the frensch outlawed german when they had it.
But I agree, it would neet to be seperate from religions.

 

[CIVPlayer8]

Refugee camps will be a tile improvement when I get more of "White Lies, Black Ops" in game. It will be built by a refugee unit, probably in someones cultural area and will be a source of crime and illness until you send in diplomats, missionaries and healers. At which point some worker and military units may spawn to support you. Ignore them or put your diplomats and spies into ones in another nation and watch rebels, partisans, bandits and the like spawn.

That sounds pretty cool. But what spawns a refugee unit? Destroying an improvement? Capturing a city? Nice concept though!

Well I know in one mod they use Languages like religions. However in doing so it messes up religions. If we could have a separate religion-like part of the game that would be great. But as it is not its kind of weird to pick Language English or Hinduism. Or using Inquisitors to rid your city of Spanish.

How hard would it be to add another layer of "religions", so we can make them languages? That sounds really cool, actually, and maybe we can make the Language civics an actual "choice", instead of just an upgrade. For example, Native Language, Multiple Languages, things like that. Could we do this?

That's an interesting point. We do seem to have somewhat of a big gap in the Ancient-Classical period for those types of economy;

Spoiler :

Communalism: Paleolithic societies, with no concept of transferable property rights, only basic ownership by the individual, family or band of resources or territory. Continued in modern form by the San bushmen of Southern Africa and the inuit.
Barter: Upper Paleolithic societies, where the first form of transferable property occurs between bands and/or tribes. No modern analogues I'm aware of.
Subsistence: Neolithic societies based on Barter but with more of a focus on an autarkic survivalist economy than intergroup cooperation. Still prevalent throughout much of modern rural Africa.
Guilds: High Middle Ages cartel based economy system, which can operate on all scales. Elements of this are still present in certain professions in modern Western countries, particularily highly unionized ones. Some overlap with Labor civics.
Mercantilism: European Renaissance policy emphasizing autarkic economic nationalism. Dominant form of Western economy from the 16th century through to the 1930s.
Free Market: An industrialized capitalist economy unhampered by government intervention beyond basic protection against force and fraud, as well as the enforcement of contracts through government courts. Close analogues exist in the Western Frontier of the 19th century United States and until recently, Hong Kong.
Corporatist: A modern industrialized economy centred around the advancement of large hierarchical firms. Typically functions as a hybrid of Guilds and Mercantilism, though catering to foreign corporations is possible too. Modern day examples include the Russian Federation and Singapore.
Planned: A modern industrialized economy which chooses the "Socialist" side of Ludwig von Mises' Capitalism-Socialism dichotomy, usually influenced heavily by Marxian communism. Historical examples include Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, modern examples are more scant.
Regulated: A modern industrialized economy where large unelected bureaucracies exert control over the operations of private enterprise. In effect, a hybrid of Free Market and Planned elements. Most modern nations have adopted this form of economy.
Green: A futuristic economy based not upon the goal of furthering mankind, but of preserving the ecosystem. Prototypical forms can be found in Bolivia, Germany and some of the Scandinavian nations.

That leaves a rather large gap for the sophisticated economies of the Chalcolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages, which frequently included Subsistence and Guild elements at their early and late period. Trade feels like too simple a name, though, and gives off the impression of an export consumer goods economy akin to modern China rather than a potentially autarkic domestic industries economy.

I want "Trade" to represent the beginning of long distance trade, across empires, and even continents. Somehow, I'd like this to help Large civilizations a lot more than smaller ones. I was hung up on the name though. What would you suggest?

If you notice Slavery is going, going, almost gone as a civic as we get the effects of having slaves being reflected in buildings and civics. It does not even exist in the CIVPlayer8's latest list, so what is the point in complaining about something being OP when it will be gone

Dancing Hoskuld is right, Joseph. Slavery won't even exist as a civic, as of the update after next. Don't worry too much about it

 

[JosEPh_II]

Dancing Hoskuld is right, Joseph. Slavery won't even exist as a civic, as of the update after next. Don't worry too much about it

No problem then. I'll just stay out of the way.

JosEPh

 

[bill2505]

That sounds pretty cool. But what spawns a refugee unit? Destroying an improvement? Capturing a city? Nice concept though!


How hard would it be to add another layer of "religions", so we can make them languages? That sounds really cool, actually, and maybe we can make the Language civics an actual "choice", instead of just an upgrade. For example, Native Language, Multiple Languages, things like that. Could we do this?


I want "Trade" to represent the beginning of long distance trade, across empires, and even continents. Somehow, I'd like this to help Large civilizations a lot more than smaller ones. I was hung up on the name though. What would you suggest?


Dancing Hoskuld is right, Joseph. Slavery won't even exist as a civic, as of the update after next. Don't worry too much about it

if you make another religion like layer why not make it about political ideology

 

[CIVPlayer8]

if you make another religion like layer why not make it about political ideology

Eh, I'd prefer not. The only place this really makes sense is the back and forth struggle of Capitalism and Communism in the 20th century.
The new Economy civics have been updated. They are a lot more simple, get straight to the point more, IMO. What do you guys think of them? BTW, next update, Slavery will be gone.

 

[strategyonly]

BTW, next update, Slavery will be gone.

How soon will you be updating, because the freeze will be coming in a few weeks (now depending on primeOver's current mishap, dont know for sure)??

 

[Hydromancerx]

@CIVPlayer8

Shouldn't this say "Labor" and not "Politics"?

Spoiler :

EDIT: Also it should read "Organized Labor" not just "Organized".

EDIT2: Some other stuff I think you should change ...

1. Community Labor to req Cooperation tech.

2. Professional Labor to req Currency tech.

3. I still think there should be a Caste Labor at Caste System tech.

4. You should put Post-Scarcity back under economy and have a new one called "Post Labor" and/or "Robotic Labor".

 

[strategyonly]

Also can you Pls update your 1st Post, would be nice if that was correct also, thx. . . .SO

 

[Il Principe]

I can just choose between the first 3 labor civics so far.. but they all give me some 16k% inflation, within 3 turns my per turn income went from about +80 gold to some -15k gold. I think this is not intentional

 

[Hydromancerx]

@CIVPlayer8

Here are icon/buttons for your new civics. Included are ...

- Unorganized Labor
- Community Labor
- Serf Labor
- Organized Labor
- Centralized Labor
- Socialized Labor
- Robotic Labor

Enjoy!

 

[CIVPlayer8]

@CIVPlayer8

Shouldn't this say "Labor" and not "Politics"?

Spoiler :

EDIT: Also it should read "Organized Labor" not just "Organized".

EDIT2: Some other stuff I think you should change ...

1. Community Labor to req Cooperation tech.

2. Professional Labor to req Currency tech.

3. I still think there should be a Caste Labor at Caste System tech.

4. You should put Post-Scarcity back under economy and have a new one called "Post Labor" and/or "Robotic Labor".

Alright, thanks for the heads up on those errors. I think Cooperation is too early a tech to unlock the next Labor civic. Moving Professional Labor sounds good though. I don't know about adding a Caste Labor/Post Scarcity, I'll think about it.

Also can you Pls update your 1st Post, would be nice if that was correct also, thx. . . .SO

Alright, I'll do it tommorow, after I organize what my plans are next.

I can just choose between the first 3 labor civics so far.. but they all give me some 16k% inflation, within 3 turns my per turn income went from about +80 gold to some -15k gold. I think this is not intentional

I saw this also in the Civilopedia, but I thought the error is only for the main menu. The best advice I can give for errors like this is to start a new game. Sorry

@CIVPlayer8

Here are icon/buttons for your new civics. Included are ...

- Unorganized Labor
- Community Labor
- Serf Labor
- Organized Labor
- Centralized Labor
- Socialized Labor
- Robotic Labor

Enjoy!

Alright, thanks Hydro! I'll add these in tomorrow.

@Thunderbrd, before you asked me if I needed any tags made. Well I have a request. Can you make a tag for buildings to affect specialists yields, in that specific city you made the building? If you could, awesome!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yep. Easy Peasy. Thanks for asking. I'll get 'er done as part of the big adding tags project I'm on now. May be done by end of this weekend. AI on that might be a little interesting and take a bit more work down the road but I'll take a stab at that too. (My AI work is kinda clumsy at best usually. I feel I'm just giving something for Koshling to ping off of there )

EDIT: after rereading... to be clear, you mean a building tag that changes specified specialist yields right? Not a Civic tag that affects buildings to in turn affect Specialist Yield outputs right?