C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[Sgtslick]

What OS do you use? XP?

Win7 64bit

Yup, clearly still broken - you can see that from the civics inflation source. Does your pedia entry for that civic also show the large (aka random) number? Does clearing your cache subsequent to having the supposedly fixed version make any difference?

I remember clearing cache, recently i've always been doing this and deleting custom assets after updating svn coz it usually solves my black terrain issue (without having to unpack fpk's).

And God forbid you get DoW'd.

Whats DoW'd ?

 

[strategyonly]

I remember clearing cache, recently i've always been doing this and deleting custom assets after updating svn coz it usually solves my black terrain issue (without having to unpack fpk's).

Yeah i had to do that a couple of times.

 

[Il Principe]

I like the new crime and unhealthiness from some civics. Health should be a problem early on, with no medical nowledge to speak of, and later you can compensate with health buildings and get huge megacities.
And +10 crime from open borders: well..with open borders you get lot´s of questionable immigrants. I nevertheless run it for the good things it does, especially the trade.

Asa real world example for letting everyone in wihtout any limitations being bad take Italy. They are NOT letting anyone in, but if they would they would have been flooded with desperate refugees from north africa. Those are not bad people. But they are many. They are packed very tight on small boats with not nearly enough sanitary instalations, so by the time they arrive many are sick or carrying not yet outbroken diseases. And they are desperate, many coming with nothing but the clothes on their back, so less then legal work or outright crime will be the means of surviving for many of them.
So through no fault of their own, they would be a health, crime and economic hazard with open borders.
Of course closignborders to them condemms them to refugee camps with conditions that are near as badas what they fled from in the first place sometimes. But morailty does not enter in the civics.

 

[LumenAngel]

I dont really undestand some Military Civic
If you use mercenaries for your army, you only pay for your units, not for other things.
It's why, IMO, Mercenary must have a No Upkeep, +2 (or 3) supply cost per Military Units, a bigger great General malus but a bonus to military production. Youw ill take mercenaries if you have money and want fast some experienced units.
I dontlike the name "VolunteerArmy". If I understan well, it's more about Professional Army/Standing Army
With the new Leaderpoint system, a +75% culture bonus from pacifism is maybe a little too much...

 

[Il Principe]

I support that notion about the Mercenary civic.
But I am fine with pacificm as it is.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>


Whats DoW'd ?

Declaration of War, sometimes in bunches from the AI to you.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

I like the new crime and unhealthiness from some civics. Health should be a problem early on, with no medical nowledge to speak of, and later you can compensate with health buildings and get huge megacities.
And +10 crime from open borders: well..with open borders you get lot´s of questionable immigrants. I nevertheless run it for the good things it does, especially the trade.

Asa real world example for letting everyone in wihtout any limitations being bad take Italy. They are NOT letting anyone in, but if they would they would have been flooded with desperate refugees from north africa. Those are not bad people. But they are many. They are packed very tight on small boats with not nearly enough sanitary instalations, so by the time they arrive many are sick or carrying not yet outbroken diseases. And they are desperate, many coming with nothing but the clothes on their back, so less then legal work or outright crime will be the means of surviving for many of them.
So through no fault of their own, they would be a health, crime and economic hazard with open borders.
Of course closignborders to them condemms them to refugee camps with conditions that are near as badas what they fled from in the first place sometimes. But morailty does not enter in the civics.

All well and good for Modern times Il Principe, but not anyway near correct for ancient times. Your argument is flawed.The Early Immigration Civics you research are in the Early part of the Game before any of what you just said Ever occurred. You have the Cart before the Horse, and are historically incorrect. As are the Immigration Civics.

Early Immigration needs a beginning Civic that is not founded on a crowded Modern World view. You did not have rampant Crime from immigration in Ancient times, nor rampant disease.

Oh but wait C2C isn't a Historical Mod is it?

JosEPh

 

[CIVPlayer8]

All well and good for Modern times Il Principe, but not anyway near correct for ancient times. Your argument is flawed.The Early Immigration Civics you research are in the Early part of the Game before any of what you just said Ever occurred. You have the Cart before the Horse, and are historically incorrect. As are the Immigration Civics.

Early Immigration needs a beginning Civic that is not founded on a crowded Modern World view. You did not have rampant Crime from immigration in Ancient times, nor rampant disease.

Should Open Borders give more disease and crime the further along the tech tree you are then? I understand what you're saying: In ancient times, having open borders didn't necessarily mean more disease. But also, look at the Bubonic Plague. It spread all the way from Mongolia/China to Europe, because the borders/trade routes were open. So maybe crime can scale, but not disease? I'm also trying to give civ's a reason to not always go Open Borders, and maybe try Closed Borders.

Oh but wait C2C isn't a Historical Mod is it?

JosEPh

At least the civics aren't , remember my priorities with civics: #1: Balance #2: Realism

Updated first post with planned civics.

 

[Faustmouse]

Is there a way to add effects to civics via techs? So if you progress, early immigration civics become more and more useless. You could do this with an autobuild building from those civics. Or add a "+5 Disease from every Pop if Pop in a City is more than 15" to civics, same as agressive do with crime.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Is there a way to add effects to civics via techs? So if you progress, early immigration civics become more and more useless. You could do this with an autobuild building from those civics. Or add a "+5 Disease from every Pop if Pop in a City is more than 15" to civics, same as agressive do with crime.

Good thinking. My only issue with this is it becomes a somewhat hidden effect as it wouldn't be expressed anywhere would it?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Immigration Civics: What Are they good for? As Eric Burden said about War, "Absolutely Nuthin' Unh!"

All well and good for Modern times Il Principe, but not anyway near correct for ancient times. Your argument is flawed.The Early Immigration Civics you research are in the Early part of the Game before any of what you just said Ever occurred. You have the Cart before the Horse, and are historically incorrect. As are the Immigration Civics.

Early Immigration needs a beginning Civic that is not founded on a crowded Modern World view. You did not have rampant Crime from immigration in Ancient times, nor rampant disease.

Oh but wait C2C isn't a Historical Mod is it?

JosEPh

I have always said that that category (Immigration/Border Security) is a waste of space. If it were possible I would start with something like the following (names need work).

1) Anyone can go anywhere without declaring war.

2) "This land is mine" - can't enter worked tiles without declaring war. Requires Trade language tech or Warfare whichever is later. +1 happy with all nations

3) "National Borders - Land" - can't enter land cultural area without declaring war. Can still enter sea areas. Enables Right of Passage. requires Ideograms or other early diplomacy/writing tech

​

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have always said that that category (Immigration/Border Security) is a waste of space. If it were possible I would start with something like the following (names need work).

1) Anyone can go anywhere without declaring war.

2) "This land is mine" - can't enter worked tiles without declaring war. Requires Trade language tech or Warfare whichever is later. +1 happy with all nations

3) "National Borders - Land" - can't enter land cultural area without declaring war. Can still enter sea areas. Enables Right of Passage. requires Ideograms or other early diplomacy/writing tech

​

Agreed about the various 'open border' settings completely. I don't agree that the Immigration/Border Security civic line is a waste of time because its existing structure can be useful for some plans coming up in the future if nothing else. The basic Espionage Security vs Trade benefit dichotomy it presents is also useful for various strategic aligning.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Why is there so many Civics with /X% Tax rate? And Really??? per 10% Tax Rate?

Despotism is now a better Civic than Republic or Democracy.

Too many Civic categories with too much overlap. Once you hit the 2nd or 3rd Civic in each category it does not pay to advance.

And all the discussion, debate, and compromise over Intolerant vs Atheism went right out the window. I feel totally betrayed over this blatantly biased old crap again!

Overall this is not an improvement over the last 2 sets. Just different for the sake of being different.

Only bright spot is now Slavery is not a Civic.

I give this set a grade of C-.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

@CIVPlayer8

In an attempt to get rid of redundant icon/buttons, here are some new icon/buttons for various civics. Included are ...

- Skilled Labor [Labor]
- Digital [Currency]
- Credit [Currency]
- Gold Standard [Currency]
- Coinage [Currency]
- No Currency [Currency]
- Cloning [Military]
- Unmanned Warfare [Military]
- Digital Warfare [Military]

Enjoy!

 

[Sgtslick]

Geez Joseph, try and be a bit more supportive and constructive can you, its not like CIVPlayer8 is your employee or something..

 

[JosEPh_II]

Geez Joseph, try and be a bit more supportive and constructive can you, its not like CIVPlayer8 is your employee or something..

When agreements and consensus are reached they should be adhered to. Tax rates, WW and Intolerant/Atheism science conflict were ALL discussed, debated and agreed upon. Now they have been Totally and completely reneged on. Complete reversal and actually more divisive than before.

Why do I have to be quiet about that? Or supportive for that matter when it's in direct conflict with prior agreements?

It's been turned all around 180* Again! We are back to a set that was no better than the set before Eldrinfal made his. With one exception....much much more conflicting and confusing Civic categories and entries in those categories.

You don't like my criticism? Guess what too bad.

JosEPh

 

[Mouthwash]

When agreements and consensus are reached they should be adhered to. Tax rates, WW and Intolerant/Atheism science conflict were ALL discussed, debated and agreed upon. Now they have been Totally and completely reneged on. Complete reversal and actually more divisive than before.

Why do I have to be quiet about that? Or supportive for that matter when it's in direct conflict with prior agreements?

It's been turned all around 180* Again! We are back to a set that was no better than the set before Eldrinfal made his. With one exception....much much more conflicting and confusing Civic categories and entries in those categories.

You don't like my criticism? Guess what too bad.

JosEPh

Why do the civics have to be this complicated?

 

[ls612]

When agreements and consensus are reached they should be adhered to. Tax rates, WW and Intolerant/Atheism science conflict were ALL discussed, debated and agreed upon. Now they have been Totally and completely reneged on. Complete reversal and actually more divisive than before.

Why do I have to be quiet about that? Or supportive for that matter when it's in direct conflict with prior agreements?

It's been turned all around 180* Again! We are back to a set that was no better than the set before Eldrinfal made his. With one exception....much much more conflicting and confusing Civic categories and entries in those categories.

You don't like my criticism? Guess what too bad.

JosEPh

I think that is not nearly as big of a problem as is in the game now. In my game I've had almost all of my cities above 20 . So I am not too concerned about this. I actually feel that this setup is better than the previous one in terms of giving gold. But that is just my opinion, maybe if things go downhill I'll make a Civic option in addition to a Trait option.

 

[strategyonly]

I think that is not nearly as big of a problem as is in the game now. In my game I've had almost all of my cities above 20 . So I am not too concerned about this. I actually feel that this setup is better than the previous one in terms of giving gold. But that is just my opinion, maybe if things go downhill I'll make a Civic option in addition to a Trait option.

I agree.

 

[LumenAngel]

About Open/Close borders
In my actual game EVERYONE choose Open Borders... They dont like Close Borders?