I'd prefer to have it off anyway, as it penalizes industrial development (and therefore success). That and there is little evidence that any temperature changes on earth are caused by human-controlled processes.
C2C - Event Ideas
- Thread starter Hydromancerx
- Start date
I'd prefer to have it off anyway, as it penalizes industrial development (and therefore success). That and there is little evidence that any temperature changes on earth are caused by human-controlled processes.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Yeah I edited my posted not realizing your responded.
Little evidence? Haha, believe that if you must.
wolfensoul9
Warlord
- Joined
- May 9, 2012
- Messages
- 255
I agree, I didn't intend to start a firestorm about Global Warming. I was simply giving what is in my view the rationale for turning it off.
The rationale for turning it off (unconditionally) is that it's not balanced or functioning correctly currently.
The rationale for making it an option is to accommodate people's world views, which within the confines of a game, can be considered valid without necessitating too much critical thought.
The rationale for making it an option is to accommodate people's world views, which within the confines of a game, can be considered valid without necessitating too much critical thought.
I don't think the threshold for the event itself is the problem. The problem is that the first global warming pollution building appears at air pollution level 250, which I think is way too low. It needs to be at least 500, and should probably be impossible for cities to reach before the Industrial Era.
The other problem that I have with it is that the mechanics are so opaque that it's very hard to understand them. I think we have some mechanics that look really good as code but fail horribly when actually played. The current implementation of the Crime mechanic comes to mind. I feel like I have to hammer crime out of existence wherever it appears because the penalties are so steep -- I've had cities get razed because of crime-caused instability. I feel a flat system, like the system used to calculate health and happiness, would work better in-game. I think having the whole growth/decay model seems like it was transplanted from simulations that go through a lot more iterations than a game of Civ4 does, and the diffusion system over trade routes just adds to the fear/uncertainty/doubt level of the mechanic. (By the way, I think this is my problem with a lot of what has been suggested for the Combat Mod -- it looks to me like it's going to be stuff that 95% of the time is irrelevant and 5% of the time screws one side of the combat.)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I suppose both sides of the arguments there have merit and its tough to really know what is true there as it will remain somewhat capable of varying judgments based on individual hunches as to how the data will play out. What I think we don't know enough of yet is which comes first, the chicken or the egg. If its one, we don't have quite the problem we may think we do, if its the other, we've probably destroyed life on earth already and there's nothing that can really be done to stop it. So I'm hoping its the first but fearing it could be true that its the second. Then again, there could be political agendas making it a bigger issue than it actually is. Equally, it could be political agendas trying to smooth it all over. Really hard to tell, even if you understand the scientific principles on the subject.
Well... we'll see how it plays out. I can understand your concerns, but at least its nearly all going to be optional, and always subject to tweaking to make work more effectively. Personally, I feel it should all help to actually improve the problems you're noting. One thing I think should be a near on the horizon project would be allowing players to select cities to trade with or not to trade with if they wish. Beyond my skill right now but shouldn't remain that way forever.
just asking: what is not working? You referenced the globalwarming.py - that is not in any way active currently.
Edit: bah should have read everything. I'll turn it off tonight when I am back at my computer...
Edit: bah should have read everything. I'll turn it off tonight when I am back at my computer...
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Thunderbrd
I spread them out mor or less evenly. Infact in my notes I drew it out as a chart ...
+1000 = Blackened Skies
+900 = Toxic Atmosphere
+850 = Major Global Warming
+800 = Major Ozone Depletion
+700 = Reef Bleaching
+600 = Moderate Ozone Depletion
+550 = Moderate Global Warming
+500 = Heavy Smog
+400 = Acid Rain
+300 = Minor Ozone Depletion
+250 = Minor Global Warming
+200 = Smog
+100 = Light Smog
I think the effects are well spread out and make sense. Getting Minor Global Warming is not much. Its only after +500 that you start getting a problem. You also have to remember you are getting no effects for any thing under +100 there is a whole negative range of pollution you can have as well. I have had some cities that stay in the negative range because of the abundant forests nearby.
@ls612
From a game point of view it gives the player another ball to juggle. Weather or not you believe in global warming is not the issue. Having the game mechanic of global warming was already in the game. Having air and water pollution just made it more direct and detailed. Much more like Sim City 4 has air and water pollution. Which is what I was going for with this property. Not to start a debate over global warming in real life.
As for factories and pollution, that us suppose to happen. Its only later in the modern era that you can gain the tools to reduce pollution. That's what happened in real life during the industrial revolution where pollution was so high and people could hardly breathe or have clean water.
I have also been thinking about giving some bonus buildings the more you have anti-pollution. Clean air and water should really help your city.
@ori
I am very disappointed that its being turned off. I suspect the player did not know the effects of pollution and let it run wild. In my games I haven't had much trouble with it. But then again I don't chop down all my trees like I could see that they did. In fact they had farms everywhere which ment some increased water pollution plus no trees to keep the air pollution down. I mean really if you chopped down all the forest in your empire what do you expect?
I spread them out mor or less evenly. Infact in my notes I drew it out as a chart ...
+1000 = Blackened Skies
+900 = Toxic Atmosphere
+850 = Major Global Warming
+800 = Major Ozone Depletion
+700 = Reef Bleaching
+600 = Moderate Ozone Depletion
+550 = Moderate Global Warming
+500 = Heavy Smog
+400 = Acid Rain
+300 = Minor Ozone Depletion
+250 = Minor Global Warming
+200 = Smog
+100 = Light Smog
I think the effects are well spread out and make sense. Getting Minor Global Warming is not much. Its only after +500 that you start getting a problem. You also have to remember you are getting no effects for any thing under +100 there is a whole negative range of pollution you can have as well. I have had some cities that stay in the negative range because of the abundant forests nearby.
@ls612
From a game point of view it gives the player another ball to juggle. Weather or not you believe in global warming is not the issue. Having the game mechanic of global warming was already in the game. Having air and water pollution just made it more direct and detailed. Much more like Sim City 4 has air and water pollution. Which is what I was going for with this property. Not to start a debate over global warming in real life.
As for factories and pollution, that us suppose to happen. Its only later in the modern era that you can gain the tools to reduce pollution. That's what happened in real life during the industrial revolution where pollution was so high and people could hardly breathe or have clean water.
I have also been thinking about giving some bonus buildings the more you have anti-pollution. Clean air and water should really help your city.
@ori
I am very disappointed that its being turned off. I suspect the player did not know the effects of pollution and let it run wild. In my games I haven't had much trouble with it. But then again I don't chop down all my trees like I could see that they did. In fact they had farms everywhere which ment some increased water pollution plus no trees to keep the air pollution down. I mean really if you chopped down all the forest in your empire what do you expect?
I'll be happy to turn it on again after the new version release - but it certainly needs rebalancing - note that it currently only uses the global warming buildings.
A question plus an observation:
question - are the effects global? If so it's very unclear if the player SHOULD seek to control it, since any negatives effect everyone, not just them.
observation - if it is beneficial to control it, and it can be fairly readily controlled (as your statement 'In my games I haven't had much trouble with it' seems to imply) then it is an imbalanced feature that just hampers the AI unless there is AI for it (which implies tuning the AI settings of the properties at least, possibly more if special actions beyond ordinary building of countering buildings is needed - e.g. - extra AI consideration to avoid chopping for example)
The event as implemented is global - and right now it does not have any localized effect (e.g. worse polluters being hit worse) - some of the other pollution buildings are meant to have localized effects though - but they are not yet implemented at all. The current implementation was a one shot thing where I hoped to get some feedback and tune it - it is absolutely tied to the pollution buildings so it should be possible to teach the AI about the pollution being something to avoid without adding an AI to the event itself.
Essentially: it would probably be possible to tell the AI about this, but right now it doesn'T know anything about it.
Another reason for it needing a lot of tuning if it is supposed to stay around...
Essentially: it would probably be possible to tell the AI about this, but right now it doesn'T know anything about it.
Another reason for it needing a lot of tuning if it is supposed to stay around...
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Koshling
Yeah it probably would be good to teach the AI not to chop every single tree down in their lands. Like the disease system the Pollution system still needs balancing. Like Ori said there has not been much feedback yet. I posted in the Unit thread some Park Ranger and Ecologist units that could be used like Policemen. But rather than reducing crime it could reduce pollution. I also want to work on Renaissance to Modern age buildings since really have not gotten that far to balance things. Most of my balancing has been pre-gunpowder.
Yeah it probably would be good to teach the AI not to chop every single tree down in their lands. Like the disease system the Pollution system still needs balancing. Like Ori said there has not been much feedback yet. I posted in the Unit thread some Park Ranger and Ecologist units that could be used like Policemen. But rather than reducing crime it could reduce pollution. I also want to work on Renaissance to Modern age buildings since really have not gotten that far to balance things. Most of my balancing has been pre-gunpowder.
Here's my 2cp on Global Warming in C2C.
1. It was obviously not balanced, from what I could see in that screen the tiles with severe warming effects actually had negative air pollution, go figure. So it isn't really ready for prime-time.
2. It would be much better if it was both an option and in the SDK. Because, Nano was complaining that the turns in which Global Warming occured were much longer than others, so there is a performance overhead to consider.
3. Don't we have terraforming in the TH era? Because that would be able to nullify some of the Global Warming effects (and that's not a bad thing).
1. It was obviously not balanced, from what I could see in that screen the tiles with severe warming effects actually had negative air pollution, go figure. So it isn't really ready for prime-time.
2. It would be much better if it was both an option and in the SDK. Because, Nano was complaining that the turns in which Global Warming occured were much longer than others, so there is a performance overhead to consider.
3. Don't we have terraforming in the TH era? Because that would be able to nullify some of the Global Warming effects (and that's not a bad thing).
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
We have the beginnings of terraforming - planting trees in the Renaissance. Unfortunately it does not seem to be working right. changing terrains is fine but planting trees, bamboo etc does not work right - it appears that it is putting the improvement forest on the plot not the feature forest and you can't work the improvement forest but you can the feature. It probably just needs a check in python OnImprovementBuilt to replace the improvement with the feature.
I fully agree that this is not something that should reside in the events py but rather belongs in the sdk if it is ssupposed to stay (though its easier for me at least to troubleshoot and adjust the values used using python code and calling it from the events since I know how to do this properly). Once it is at least sort of robustly in place I would certainly try to get it into the sdk...
That said: as python code it does affect performance a lot and currently is not targeting a specific plot because of its pollution but is a global effect that targets random plots based on the amount of global pollution.
That said: as python code it does affect performance a lot and currently is not targeting a specific plot because of its pollution but is a global effect that targets random plots based on the amount of global pollution.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
I think the Events need some balancing. Some are somewhat powerfull (the supervirus killed 100 pops from my mega city :/) while others are rediculous. Yeasterday I got an event with breeding horses or something and I gave me 31-73 gold. In my treasury were 35.000 gold and I got 350 gold per turn. And this is only the classic era... In the modern era this would be even more useless. Could you scale those to era?
Going through the hundreds of events that otehrs created to scale them by era would do two things:
(1) tie me up for a decade in entirely unfun work
and either
(2a) force me to change each of these events to python code, forcing me to tell the AI about how good or bad each choice is for every event, getting me right back to (1)
or
(2b) force me to create duplicate events for each era for each event, getting me right back to (1)
So the short of this thing is: eh no, not going to happen. If someone else is masochistic enough to try to balance each event go right ahead - I however think its best to try and balance them overall, and this would likely be best done by simply having more not terribly powerful events.
(1) tie me up for a decade in entirely unfun work
and either
(2a) force me to change each of these events to python code, forcing me to tell the AI about how good or bad each choice is for every event, getting me right back to (1)
or
(2b) force me to create duplicate events for each era for each event, getting me right back to (1)
So the short of this thing is: eh no, not going to happen. If someone else is masochistic enough to try to balance each event go right ahead - I however think its best to try and balance them overall, and this would likely be best done by simply having more not terribly powerful events.
Faustmouse
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 3,524
Ah ok I didn't know it would be that hard. Would it be able to change the gold costs from a fix value (or a range) to X, where X is simply a function of your current income?
Also, what about the "Our Archers are promoted with poisoned arrows" event? I thought this one was disabled because of the poison crafters hut but I just got it yesterday.
And whoever fixed the Workboat Event:
! It bugged me since ever 
Also, what about the "Our Archers are promoted with poisoned arrows" event? I thought this one was disabled because of the poison crafters hut but I just got it yesterday.
And whoever fixed the Workboat Event:
! It bugged me since ever Similar threads
