C2C- Prehistoric /Ancient / Classical / Medieval / Renaissance Eras

Papyrology/Historiography (if you dont want to use History)
Exegesis or Hermeneutics
Epistemology
Monasticism
Sarcophagi (Gallo-Roman; Dogmatic Sarcophagus)
Monogram
Tessera
Censorship ( Century Assembly , Regimen Morum, and Marcius Censorinus)
Pederasty
Vessel
Mohism
Hegemony
Woodblock printing
Mahajanapada
Sultanate
Sanskritization
Invasion ( "Roman Britain")
Amphora
Pagan (" Claudius")
Lapidary
Pantheon (temples of polytheistic cultures like Olmec)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon_(gods)

I am missing Africa and Oceania
 
nice list.
i think we should use the maths as catalystst.
i think we should have an astrology and a cosmology, one uses math and the other geomerety and algebra.
we can have Patronage at Medival and Patriotism at Renassiance or Industrial.
Vessel upgrades to Amphora, and Mosaic to Tessra. we can link Tessera to medieval paintings.
What about Mythology as in written science fiction?
this tech tree is going to be intersting, i love Sarcophogi..we still use those type of cemetaries in military cemetaries.
what do you think of Alum?
adding Latin ?
 

I don't think bridges should be a tech since there are so many types and I already have various types of bridges from the Prehistoric to the Modern Era. It would be weird to research bridges when you already have some built.

On a side note we may want to look over some other mod's tech trees if we are adding new techs. At the very least they might provide some already made icon/buttons.

i think we should have an astrology and a cosmology, one uses math and the other geomerety and algebra.

How do you mean? We already have Astrology (Classical) and Cosmology (Industrial) as techs.

Pantheon (temples of polytheistic cultures like Olmec)

This is already represented through buildings and religions. I do not think it needs its own tech. Especially when we have Polytheism as a tech.

While it nice to add more tech I think we need to be a bit more conservative in what we add. We don't want to end up with a bunch of empty techs again. Especially when we still have some.
 
Mr Azure... please check your list thoroughly for redundancies. It's simply too long for me to review. Perhaps we should go back to one suggested tech at a time because even when this conversation opened up there was too much to talk about at once for me to jump in. What I'd really like to see is a moment given to appreciate the fact that so many of these ideas already have been proposed and debated. We can add techs to the slightest minutae and it won't always make things better if not well considered what the purpose of adding may be.

For me, if I'm thinking of adding a tech it's because I see a need from the angle of attempting to develop a game effect further. Sure, you can go at it from the other direction too but then you have to start inventing game effects that might seem a little 'pushed'.

Anyhow, keep things to the charts as much as possible and look to invalidate anything that would be redundant or lacking in game effect please. AND keep in mind there should be strategic layers built in to which directions to take throughout the tech tree.
 
James

, as you are aware, there are some empty techs (I have no idea why).

Read Thunderbrd advice. I think we should combine crankshaft with machinery. For philosophers we can either list their school of though or their main contributions but not not both. I prefer the school of thought.


Let's work combination.

I think we can add bridges and dams to Arch. Hydro, while well intended, brings ideas from other Eras that were developments rather than origins, and I figure is because not many are of historical depth in all time periods .


I like outside the box thinking. To me an Amphora doesn't represent amphora but history that is connected to amphora.

I have read and seen dozens of dozens of sources of Antiquity so your list I understand. The question is how can we transform it to a game play elements.


I think we should have the philosophers upgrade to each other as technology and list the their school and major works in one tech.

Karma should be renamed Vedas.


We can have Cosmos upgrade to Astrology and that upgrades to Zodiac. I am unsure we need to establish Trajectory and work in big picture mode. We might not need Cosmos at all if we include Geophysics. It depends on what we want to add to Cosmos.


Classical is 700 b. C to 440 a.D
 
Also James I personally don't understand why Philosophy is a Tech. That is like saying Religion is a tech or Imagination is a Tech, so I agree that it needs to be deleted and divided to schools of thought. If we did it to religion we can do it to be philosophy .


It either gets deleted or moved. The same with Mathematics, it needs modification.
 
James
I had my fraternity help me make a list, its not final, and I eliminated some techs proposed.

Spoiler :
Date|Tech|Comments

2nd millennium BCE|Zoroastrianism |
1st millennium AD|Ship Building |
???|Asatru |
500 BC|Spice Trade |
331 BC |Drug Trade |
207 BC |Floristry |Egypt-2,500 BCE, China-207 BC
A.D 226 |Music |2500 B.C-Elamite Empire, A.D 226-Sassanid
200 B.C +|Judaism |,
20 BC / 100 A.D |Meditation |20 B.C -Philo of Alexandria , 100 A.D -Vimalakirti Sutra
600 B.C +|Buddhism |
340 B.C |Astrology |100 B.C -Egyptian Dendera Zodiac, 340 B.C - Horoscopic Astrology, 280 BC-Berossus Astrology School , 200 B.C- Cato and Juvenal , 1046–256 BC- Ying Yang
400 B.C / 160 A.D |Ancient Medicine |400 B.C Hippocrates, 160 A.D -Aelius "Galen" Galenus. Note: we might have two Medicine Techs.
600 BC|Insurance |600 BC -The Greeks and Romans introduced the origins of health and life insurance.
472 B.C |Drama |472 BC- City Dionysia competition, 240 BC- marks the beginning of regular Roman drama. 205 B.C -Plautus, 166 B.C -Terence
1700 B.C /335 B.C |Poetry |1700–1200 BC- Indian Vedas , 335 BC Poetics (Aristotle), 675 BC -Zoroaster's Gathas to the Odyssey
1000 B.C |Alphabet | 2700 BC- Egyptian,1500 B.C- Proto-Sinaitic script, 1050 BC+ Phoenician alphabet, 1600 BC- Mycenaean Greeks , 800 B.C Euboean alphabet, c.700 BC -Corinthian script, 600 BC- Latin alphabet
500 B.C+|Naghualism |Zapotec writing was 600 B.C
300 B.C |Calligraphy |100 A.D- Roman Cursive, 1454 A.D Gothic calligraphy , 200 BC -Imperial China Xiaozhuan, 300 B.C Kǎishū style , 140 A.D cǎoshū style, (c. 265 BC Aśoka's edicts (stone) , 550 B.C Persian , 300 B.C Mayan Hieroglyph script " San Bartolo" Note: Mayan calligraphy was expressed via Mayan hieroglyphs; modern Mayan calligraphy is mainly used on seals. We might need another Caligraphy in late Medieval.
500 B.C / 1200 A.D|Aesthetics | 340 B.C -Metaphysics (Aristotle), 700 B.C - Bharata Muni (India), 500 B.C -Hundred Schools of Thought (Confucius), 1000 B.C - Nok Culture (Africa), 1100 A.D -Arabesque , 1221 A.D -Saint Bonaventure, 1600 A.D -Modernism note: We will need another Aesthetics in early Renaissance
500 B.C +|Jainism |500 B.C -Vardhamana Mahāvīra
600 B.C|Mathematics |3000 BC- Between 600 and 300 BC the Ancient Greeks began a systematic study of mathematics in its own right with Greek mathematics
600 B.C and 1800 A.D |Geometry |2000 B.C - Ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt , 600 B.C -Thales , 500 B.C -Pythagoras, 300 B.C - Euclid, , 1048- Omar Khayyám ,1280 A.D Witelo, 1320 A.D Gersonides , 1620 A.D- René_Descartes , ,1640 A.D Girard Desargues ,1650 A.D Pierre de Fermat, , 1840 A.D János Bolyai, 1820 A.D Friedrich Gauss .Note: At the start of the 19th century the discovery of non-Euclidean geometries by Gauss, Lobachevsky, Bolyai, and others led to a revival of interest, and in the 20th century David Hilbert employed axiomatic reasoning in an attempt to provide a modern foundation of geometry.
200 B.C+|Aristocracy |350 B.C -Aristocracy coined by Aristotle. The term "aristocracy" (ἀριστοκρατία) was first given in Athens to young citizens (the men of the ruling class) who led armies from the front line. Because military bravery was highly regarded as a virtue in ancient Greece, it was assumed that the armies were being led by "the best". From the ancient Greeks, the term passed on to the European Middle Ages for a similar hereditary class of military leaders often referred to as the "nobility". As in Greece, this was a class of privileged men and women whose familial connections to the regional armies allowed them to present themselves as the most "noble" or "best". Note: Add hereditary to Medieval.
850 B.C / 300 A.D|Literature |1900 BC -Sumerian stories , 1500 BC - Vedas, 850 BC- Homer , 100 A.D - Codex (ancient book), 700 BC - Nineveh, 300 B.C - Ptolemy I Soter , 135 A.D -Library of Celsus (12,000 scrolls), 500 B.C -Greece , 60 A.D- Atrium Libertatis Note: Does Literature represent books or scrolls? Books were Roman, Scrolls were B.C. Perhaps we need Scrolls and Literature.
400 B.C |Meritocracy |Both Plato and Aristotle advocated meritocracy. With the translation of Confucian texts during the Enlightenment, the concept of a meritocracy reached intellectuals in the West. Australia began establishing public universities in the 1850s with the goal of promoting meritocracy by providing advanced training and credentials. The educational system was set up to service urban males of middle-class background, but of diverse social and religious origins.
400 B.C |Confucianism | Confucius (551–479 BC). Confucianism became the official state ideology of the Han (206 BC – 220 AD).
400 B.C|Mosaic Working |Bronze age pebble mosaics have been found at Tiryns and mosaics of the 4th century BC are found in the Macedonian palace-city of Aegae.
3000 B.C /Move to Ancient | Paved Roads |Stone-paved streets are found in the city of Ur in the Middle East dating back to 4000 BC. Brick-paved streets were used in India as early as 3000 BC. In 500 BC, Darius I the Great started an extensive road system for Persia (Iran), including the Royal Road, which was one of the finest highways of its time. The road remained in use after Roman times.From about 312 BC, the Roman Empire built straight strong stone Roman roads throughout Europe and North Africa, in support of its military campaigns. At its peak the Roman Empire was connected by 29 major roads moving out from Rome and covering 78,000 kilometers or 52,964 Roman miles of paved roads. Note: Move to Ancient .
1770 B.C |Code of Laws |1772 B.C -Code of Hammurabi, , 200 B.C Hindu law framed by Manu and called as Manu Smriti. 624 A.D -Tang Code
500 B.C |Democracy | 508-507 BC- Athenians , 700 B.C - Range voting by Sparta, 753 BC -Roman Senate, 300 AD|
770 B.C |Philosophy | 2500 B.C - maxims of Ptahhotep ,1000 B.C- Dialog of Pessimism (Babylonian) , 1000 BC-Darshanas (India), 1700 B.C Zarathustra (Zoroaster- Persia), 770 B.C -Hundred Schools of Thought (China), 585 B.C -Graeco-Roman philosophy , 1935 A.D -The Story of Civilization: Our Oriental History (10,000 pages!). Note: We move out Graeco-Roman philosophers.
400 B.C |Taoism |the Tao Te Ching – is dated to the late 4th century BC.
Move to Ancient| Weather Lore |Should be moved before Gardening. It started with mariners, shepherds , and gardeners.
Ancient|Monarchy |Tyrants like Persia
A.D 100 |Road Building | How is this different from Paved Roads? Is this Roman (A.D 100)?. If so, move Paved Roads to Ancient.
700 B.C |City Planning |Traditionally, the Greek philosopher Hippodamus (5th century BC) is regarded as the first town planner and ‘inventor’ of the orthogonal urban layout. Aristotle called him ‘the father of city planning. 700 B.C to include Roman Domuses and Villas.
700 B.C |Canal Systems | 2283 BC- Egypt, 481 B.C - China, The Middle Ages saw a lot of new canal systems. 700 B.C - Aquducts, 540 A.D- Peruvian , 1420 A.D - Aztec, 100 B.C -kahan (Persian) :, kahriz (Azerbaijan); khettara (Morocco); galería (Spain); falaj (Oman)
950 B.C |Sanitation |2600 B.C -Harappa and Mohenjo-daro (Indus Valley), 79 A.D - Pompeii (Roman), High Middle Ages (e 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries)
500 B.C |Iron Working |1500 BC- Mesopotamia, Anatolia, and Egypt, 500 BC -Central Europe , 1200 BC - Sub-Saharan Africa(Smelting in 500 BC) , Wootz steel was produced in India and Sri Lanka from around 300 BC, 1100 B.C - Greece, 500 B.C - China,
80 A.D |Construction | As cities grew during the Bronze Age, a class of professional craftsmen, like bricklayers and carpenters, appeared. Occasionally, slaves were used for construction work. Colosseum A.D 80.
3000 B.C -64 A.D *Wildcard* |Concrete |3000 B.C -Mesopotamia later in Egypt (lime, sand, and gravel), ??? -Ancient Macedonians ( Pozzolanic reaction), 25 BC -, Roman- (trass or pumice or volcanic ash,) and artificial pozzolans (ground brick or pottery); Vitruvius, writing around 25 BC in his Ten Books on Architecture. Rebuilding Rome after the fire in 64 AD, which destroyed large portions of the city, the new building code by Nero consisted of largely brick-faced concrete.
900 B.C |Currency |2000 BC- Originally money was a form of receipt, representing grain stored in temple granaries in Sumer in ancient Mesopotamia, then Ancient Egypt. 1000 and 900 BC - the appearance of real coinage, possibly first in Anatolia with Croesus of Lydia and subsequently with the Greeks and Persians. Archimedes' principle provided the next link: coins could now be easily tested for their fine weight of metal, and thus the value of a coin could be determined, even if it had been shaved, debased or otherwise tampered with. Most major economies using coinage had three tiers of coins: copper, silver and gold starting with the Mahajanapadas. 520 B.C -Achaemenid Empire, including the gold darics and silver sigloi. 289 BC -The first Roman coins, which were crude, heavy cast bronzes, were issued ca. Depends if it means Coinage or Receipts?
776 B.C|Athletics | Prehistoric - Athletic contests in running, walking, jumping, and throwing are among the oldest of all sports and their roots are prehistoric. 2250 BC -Heb Sed festival (Egyptian) , 1800 BC -Celtic Festival , 776 BC - Olympics (Greek) , 500 B.C -Panhellenic Games. I guess this represents the Olympics. Persia had a gymnasium in 2000 B.C.
300 B.C|Hellenism |
500 B.C|Ancient Ballistics | 400 BC- handheld crossbow used in battle , 500 B.C -Greek world use crossbows, 400 B.C - Romans use Crossbows,
100 A.D |Siege Warfare ||30,000 B.C - Bommerang , 55 A.D -Ballista Mainstream use with Julius Cesar, A.D 20 -Cheiroballistra ('hand ballista) , 100 A.D Carroballista (Cart Ballista), Seige Towers (depends on region and type from 900 B.C to Medieval Age).
???|Machinery | Keep it near the end.
???|Smithing |keep near the end.
???| Cloud Patterns |Luke Howard, a methodical observer with a strong grounding in the Latin language, used his background to categorize the various tropospheric cloud types and forms during December 1802. I cannot find a source by this is classical.
648 B.C |Combat Sports | Combat sports are first recorded during the Olympic games of 648 B.C. with pankration. Pankration allowed competitors to use all striking and grappling techniques
???|Vassalage |From the time of the Zhou Dynasty (1046–770 BCE) until the Han Dynasty (206 BCE–220 CE), a varying number of vassal states existed in Ancient China. It can be placed anywhere in Classical. |
Early Classical|Horse Breeding | The throat-girth design was not improved until the Chinese breast-strap or "breastcollar" harness developed during the Warring States (481 BC–221 BC) era in China. The Chinese breast harness became known throughout Central Asia by the 7th century.Its first depiction in artwork was on lacquer-ware boxes from the ancient State of Chu. This type of harness put pressure upon the sternum, where the line of traction is directly linked with the skeletal system of the horse, allowing for nearly full exertion.[3] It was in universal use by the time of the Chinese Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD).
|Mounted Archery | Anywhere after Geometry.
200 B.C|Stirrup |The earliest manifestation of the stirrup was a toe loop that held the big toe and was used in India late in the second century BC, though may have appeared as early as 500 BC.
360 B.C. |History or Exegesis or Hermeneutics |Hermeneutics is derived from the Greek word ἑρμηνεύω (hermeneuō, 'translate' or 'interpret'). It was introduced into philosophy mainly through the title of Aristotle's work On Interpretation, commonly referred to by its Latin title De Interpretatione. It is one of the earliest (c. 360 B.C.)
A.D 77|Mineralogy |The Natural History (Latin: Naturalis Historia) is an early encyclopedia published circa AD 77–79 by Pliny the Elder. It is one of the largest single works to have survived from the Roman Empire to the modern day and purports to cover all ancient knowledge.
300 B.C|Logic |Logic was studied in several ancient civilizations, including India,[4] China,[5] Persia and Greece. In the West, logic was established as a formal discipline by Aristotle, who gave it a fundamental place in philosophy.
150 A. D|Geophysics |In circa 240 BC, Eratosthenes of Cyrene deduced that the Earth was round and measured the circumference of the Earth, using trigonometry and the angle of the Sun at more than one latitude in Egypt. He developed a system of latitude and longitude and measured the tilt of the Earth's axis. perhaps the earliest contribution to seismology was the invention of a seismoscope by the prolific inventor Zhang Heng in 132 AD.
200 B.C|Cosmos |Before tools such as the telescope were invented, early study of the stars had to be conducted from the only vantage points available, namely tall buildings and high ground using the naked eye. As civilizations developed, most notably in Mesopotamia, China, Egypt, Greece, India, and Central America, astronomical observatories were assembled, and ideas on the nature of the universe began to be explored. Too much to list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy#History
500 A.D (last row) or Medieval |Trigonometry |Sumerian astronomers studied angle measure, using a division of circles into 360 degrees.They and later the Babylonians, studied the ratios of the sides of similar triangles and discovered some properties of these ratios, but did not turn that into a systematic method for finding sides and angles of triangles. The ancient Nubians used a similar method. The ancient Greeks transformed trigonometry into an ordered science. To much to list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometry
500 B.C |Geography |The ideas of Anaximander (c. 610 BC-c. 545 BC): considered by later Greek writers to be the true founder of geography, come to us through fragments quoted by his successors. Anaximander is credited with the invention of the gnomon, the simple, yet efficient Greek instrument that allowed the early measurement of latitude. To much to list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography#History
200 B.C |Metaphysics |Many authors.
400 B.C|Wheelbarrow |The wheelbarrow may have existed in ancient Greece in the form of a one-wheel cart.
100 B.C |Botanical Science | Examples of early botanical works have been found in ancient sacred texts from India dating back to before 1100 BC archaic Avestan writings, and works from China before it was unified in 221 BC. Modern botany traces its roots back to Ancient Greece, specifically to Theophrastus (c. 371–287 BC), a student of Aristotle who invented and described many of its principles and is widely regarded in the scientific community as the "Father of Botany". His major works, Enquiry into Plants and On the Causes of Plants, constitute the most important contributions to botanical science until the Middle Ages, almost seventeen centuries after they were written. Another work from Ancient Greece that made an early impact on botany is De Materia Medica, a five-volume encyclopedia about herbal medicine written in the middle of the first century by Greek physician and pharmacologist Pedanius Dioscorides. De Materia Medica was widely read for more than 1,500 year.
X |Pythagoreanism | Put vertically before Platonism .
X |Platonism |Put vertically after Socratism
X|Socratism |Put vertically after Pythagoreanism
X |Aristotelianism | Put vertically after Socratism.
X | Epicureanism | Put vertically after Aristotelianism
X|Stoicism |Put vertically after Epicureanism
Anywhere |Customs | mostly Roman.
Very early | Monasticism | We might NOT need this.
Very Early |Sarcophagi |We can have Romans require Cement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcophagi
350BC|Monogram |Monograms first appeared on coins, as early as 350BC. Note: I think we should move to Medieval, they have greater history there.
Near End |Tessera | It seems its more of a Byzantine Empire creation. Will have to look into it more.
400 B.C |Censorship | It seems like its about keeping morality and is about the Roman Censor. Interesting.
| Pederasty | I don't think we can put this in C2C, even if it was extremely common, because it would be quite controversial for most of our audience.
|Hegemony | I like it but I don't know how we would include it unless its a civic.
220 A.D|Woodblock printing |
600 B.C |Mahajanapada | We can put their cultural wonders and main discoveries here.
600 B.C|Amphora |
After Mineralogy | Gemcutting |renamed Lapidary . Indian literature dated about 2300 B.C. refers to manikyam. Because mani is a term to describe a sphere or bead it appears that some form of gem cutting was practiced that early. Bapu Majajan, a contemporary Indian gemologist and Fellow of the Gemmological Association of Great Britain, feels that these and later references, (about 400 B.C.,) to gemstones in India show that gem cutting, including a rude form of faceting, had its origins in that country. It goes without saying that the more famous transparent gems, ruby, sapphire, spinel, emerald and garnet, appeared in many different forms; all the work of advanced gemcutters. Note: Jewerly Store is in Prehistoric but we would need a Gem Store. This is very important for India and the Middle East. I would put this after Minerology, I know some Wonders we can have, including Greek, Roman, Indian, and Chinese.

 
James
It seems we can do more with certain philosophers.


Spoiler :
Pythagoreanism
School of Croton
Pythagorean Theorm
Number Essence
Musical Mathematica
Tetractys Lore
Metempsychosis

Platonism
Platonic Academy
Epistemology
Idealism / Realism
Demiurge
Theory of Forms
Transcendentals
Form of the Good
Third Man Argument
Euthyphro dilemma
Five Regimes
Philosopher king
Myth of Atlantis


Aristotelianism
School of Lyceum
The Athenian Constitution
On Dreams
Economics
Eudemian Ethics
On Generation and Corruption
On Happiness
On the Heavens
The Highest Good
The History of Animals
On Interpretation
On Memory and Reminiscence
Metaphysics
Meteorology
Physics
Poetics
Politics
Rhetoric
Topics
On Tragedy
Virtues and Vices
On Youth and Old Age, On Life and Death, On Breathing
Collections


Archimedes
On the Equilibrium of Planes
On the Measurement of a Circle
On Spirals
On the Sphere and the Cylinder
On Floating Bodies
The Quadrature of the Parabola
The Sand Reckoner
The Method of Mechanical Theorems

Euclid
Euclid's Elements
Data
Catoptrics
Phaenomena
Optics





EDIT:
My approved List

History
Mineralogy
Gemcutting
Geophysics
Amphora
Cosmos
Mahajanapada
Trigonometry
Tessera
Geography
Botanical Science
Metaphysics
Sarcophagi
Wheelbarrow
Customs
Platonism
Aristotelianism
Archimedes
 
My approved List [/B]
1. History
2. Mineralogy
3. Gemcutting
4. Geophysics
5. Amphora
6. Cosmos
7. Mahajanapada
8. Trigonometry
9. Tessera
10. Geography
11. Botanical Science
12. Metaphysics
13. Sarcophagi
14. Wheelbarrow
15. Customs
16. Platonism
17. Aristotelianism
18. Archimedes

1. Ok
2. Ok
3. Ok
4. Ok
5. How is this different from other pottery? Why not just call it "Ceramics".
6. I am still not sue on the name since we have Comology. Also we have Astrology and Stargazing too. Seems like most pre-telescope stuff is covered in Stargazing tech. And constellations and zodiac stuff is covered in Astrology tech.
7. Mahajanapada i way too specific. So no.
8. Ok
9. How is this different from Sand Paintings or Mosaics tech?
10. Ok
11. Hows this differ from say Gardening tech?
12. Ok.
13. Hows this differ from Mummification tech?
14. How's this differ from The Wheel tech?
15. How's this differ from Usury tech?
16. Way too specific. I think Philosophy tech covers this. Remember the tech tree is for all civs, not just European ones.
17. Again way too specific. This is better as wonders or great people or civics.
18. Again same thing.
 
Where do I even begin. You have civilization specific technologies like Falconry, Emacipation, Democracy, Dueling, Mummification, Confucius, and Chivarly. I am adding the school of thought of three philosophers who revolutionized alot and their teachings were standard and adopted by many regions like Islam and Britain for at least 1,000 years and you say too specific. Seriously?

How can you compare Astrology to ancient astronomy..like seriously?

How is it different than Tessera? What?

How is the Wheelbarow different than The Wheel ? Huh?

Im out of this thread.
 
Where do I even begin. You have civilization specific technologies like Falconry, Emacipation, Democracy, Dueling, Mummification, Confucius, and Chivarly. I am adding the school of thought of three philosophers who revolutionized alot and their teachings were standard and adopted by many regions like Islam and Britain for at least 1,000 years and you say too specific. Seriously?

Many different cultures used falconry from the people of the Asiatic steps to European royalty. any cultures eventually emancipated their slaves. Democracy exist s in my cultures. Dueling has arose independently in both the East, West and even the Americas. Mumufication can be found globally, not only in Egypt but also in South America and Asia. Chivalry also developed independently, in the west its the whole knights and stuff, in the east its the Bushido and samurai kind of honor.

Confucianism and the other religions were only given their own techs because when on normal techs too many civs would get them if they were in the lead. By having them on their ow dead end techs the AI did not get them as much and players could avoid getting religions if they did not want to get them. This is a game reason for this and not a historical reason.

I am saying that Philosophy is a much better generic tech for this. Thus it can cover all types of philosophies be it Greek, Indian, Zen, Dao, etc. having wonders, great people, buildings, religions and or civs to cover these would be great, but as a tech they are way too specific.

How can you compare Astrology to ancient astronomy..like seriously?

If not for astrology there would be no consolations. Ans as much as that stuff is crazy sperstions they did at least help in the foundation of astronomy by tracking the planets and other heavily bodies.

How is it different than Tessera? What?

In wikipedia ...

In early antiquity, mosaics were formed from naturally formed colored pebbles, but by 200 BCE cut stone tesserae were being used in Ancient Roman decorative mosaic panels and floor mosaics. Marble or limestone were cut into small cubes and arranged into representational designs and geometric patterns.

We have Sand Painting already as a building in the prehistoric era and we have Mosaic Working as a tech. I am not sure if this needs it sown tech.

How is the Wheelbarow different than The Wheel ? Huh?

We have the Wheelwright at the Wheel Tech. I assume they are making wheelbarrows as well as Carts. I am not sure if this needs to be its own tech.

Im out of this thread.

Huh?
 
If not for astrology there would be no consolations. Ans as much as that stuff is crazy sperstions they did at least help in the foundation of astronomy by tracking the planets and other heavily bodies.
I wouldn't cast it out as crazy superstition H. It was the Gods of Sumeria that gave us the original 12 divisions and constellations of the heavens. It's only our last century's 'can't prove it scientifically yet so it doesn't exist' idealism blending with the biblical chastising of the soothsayers of Babylon (where it could be said to have admittedly gotten way out of hand and overly specific and the knowledge twisted in ignorance) that has convinced the mass populace of the US that Astrology is just 'crazy superstition'. I can personally attest to having spent quite a research into the subject both from an experiential and objective perspective, entering into it with the expectation to find it to be exactly as you just stated, only to find that there is, in fact, something very real about it. Yes, the arguments about predictive illusions deriving the semblence of accuracy by overgeneralizing its statements are valid but when you dig deeper, that argument begins to lose its validity.

Ultimately, it was a knowledge of cosmic influences on the planet handed to us by greater scientists than our modern ones imo and it should not be scoffed upon as some flicker of human superstitious thinking, despite the fact that most humans attempting to use this information end up doing very little else with it aside from misguided fantasy enablement.

Anyhoooo... off the podium then...



I think the point of the argument you guys are getting at for the most part is that we really need to be as non-culture-centric as possible. Hydro's returns to why some of the techs we have are acceptable despite sounding at first as culture-centric are, imo, completely spot on. I hadn't thought it through to that extent yet but it all made a lot of sense to me.

However, I do see the rare culture-centric tech as being possible to implement and work with in the mod without causing some logic flaws - I feel that martial arts is one that is culture-centric but is not handled in the way I'd suggest to handle culture-centric techs. What I'd do with them is make them, and every tech that depends on them, completely possible to bypass. This would be the rational course, where one civilization or a group of them choose to develop those techs because it gave them a needed advantage at the time, not because it was compulsory to achieving true further development.

The other issue that points out the violation of some basic tech design guidelines was in breaking up philosophy. Doing so wouldn't be much different than the art development we have but I think the problem with it is that it ends up with a scattered set of culture-centric techs which would need to follow the above guideline as well.

The philosophy tech is somewhat culture-centric itself as it represents the philosophical development of the idea that thought itself is a worthy pursuit - a concept that arose most prominently in Greece, so far as our western historians would consider the origin anyhow... despite it being much like every other great Greek achievement (like astrology), an echo of Sumerian ones that had preceded the Greeks by a few thousand years.

Note: Sumerian refugee scatter from the Black Wind event that destroyed the civilization is largely to blame for so many of their ideas going blank from the civilizations of the world for a time then re-emerging later in nearby portions of the world within a few hundred or in some cases, few thousand years of that event.

One good example was pointed out recently on one of MrAzure's posted charts in the mysterious and unknown origins of Asatru. There's clear relevancy and paralellism between Asatru and Mesopotamianism that is so laughably similar that there can be no doubt that Asatru is merely what could be recalled throughout the generations of verbal handing down of the Sumerian religion among refugees that migrated so far north as to become a part of the fabric of the Celtic/Viking peoples. Therefore, Asatru is an evolved form of Sumerian and the point in time the one became the other was so gradual that it cannot be pinpointed in any way, except perhaps to identify the Black Wind event itself as Asatru's origin point as it was the beginning of the inevitable degradation and redefinition process from Sumerian to Asatru.

Anyhow... I hope all this has made sense to both of you. We're not arguing here, just trying to refine ideas so that the playing public will react to them with a recognition of the depth of thought put into them, not just the spark of inventiveness. We know we're chalk full of the latter so the more we can push towards refinement the better our ideas will be.
 
Incorrect, Plato, Aristole, and Archimedes are not culture specific since they influence Greek, Roman, Arabic, and Latin thinkers directly. They are not European but Mediterranean (in that time period).

Well Democracy was only in Athlens and Rome until the Middle Ages. (That's 2 cultures).


Mahajanapada (16 cultures).

Platonism (5 cultures - Greece, Roman, England, Byzantine, Egypt,)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Platonists

Aristotelianism (13 cultures- Greek, Assyrian, Spain, Byzantine, Roman, Syria, Mesopotamia, Persian, Iraq, Pakistan, England, Scottland, Abbasid ).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelianism

Wheelbarrows were invented around 200 B.C The Wheel was around 8-6,000 B.C!

Astrology does not equal Astronomy, but its connected to it.

A does not equal B but is connected to B.

astrologia = ἀστρολογία = “telling of the stars” = the artform
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

astronomia = αστρονομία =""law of the stars" = the science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_astronomy

Ceramics imply its crystalline.
A ceramic is an inorganic, nonmetallic solid prepared by the action of heat and subsequent cooling. Ceramic materials may have a crystalline or partly crystalline structure
Classes: Chuta, Epinetron, Luchnos, Situla.

Amphora = could be made of ceramic, terracotta, metals , porcelain, or pewter.
Classes: Hydria, Kalathos, Kalpis, Lebes, Pelike, Pithos, and Stamnos.



You can argue that it can be called Ceramics (99% of people will not know the difference).

The earliest use of Faconry was 2000 B.C Why is it in Prehistoric?
Evidence suggests that the art of falconry may have begun in Mesopotamia, with the earliest accounts dating to approximately 2000 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falconry#Timeline


Azure
You also have flagrant misconceptions with Mummification, Chivalry, Emancipation, Falconry being culture specific. Should we continue to Medieval or focus on buildings?

MrAzure said:
Im out of this thread.
No don't do that, but if you must because of disagreement with Hydro then put it in your modmod. I am interested in that religions you posted in the other thread, and would would love to have all of this in my game.

Edit You can always win at everything, you got a few techs in, thats good news!
 
However, I do see the rare culture-centric tech as being possible to implement and work with in the mod without causing some logic flaws - I feel that martial arts is one that is culture-centric but is not handled in the way I'd suggest to handle culture-centric techs. What I'd do with them is make them, and every tech that depends on them, completely possible to bypass. This would be the rational course, where one civilization or a group of them choose to develop those techs because it gave them a needed advantage at the time, not because it was compulsory to achieving true further development.

Martial Arts actually has parallels with other non-Asian cultures such as the Hawaiian and Polynesian traditional dances, medication and even surfing to some extent. Likewise some Native American dances use the same movements as martial arts. Even the mindset of them being harmony between spirit, body and mind. Even the Ancient Greeks had their own form of Martial Arts boxing. If we had a tech called Karate or Judo then it would be too specific. But Martial Arts in is broadest sense covers many cultures across the world.

despite it being much like every other great Greek achievement (like astrology)

Astrology is very global look at the Chinese Zodiac or the whole Mayan Calendar. Its not just the Greek Zodiac that this tech is representing.

Incorrect, Plato, Aristole, and Archimedes are not culture specific since they influence Greek, Roman, Arabic, and Latin thinkers directly. They are not European but Mediterranean (in that time period).

What I mean is that si limited to the Mediterranean cultures. No Aztec or Incan people knew of Plato, Aristotle, or Archimedes. However they had their own Philosophies, which is why the general tech of Philosophy should be kept. That's not to say we should not try to incorporate them in the mod. Right now we have Plato's Academy and Archimede's Workshop as wonders. Aristotle should have some sort of wonder too. I know they all are Great People.

Another idea would be making some sort of Philosophy system similar to religions where you found Philosophy and it spreads. I just don't think it should be a tech that's all. The only way I would think it should be a tech is if we had civ specific tech trees (which some mods do). But sicne we are all about the payer customizing heir civs as they play, we cannot really go that route.

Astrology does not equal Astronomy, but its connected to it.

I am not saying that at all. However Astronomy and Astrology do share some overlaps. Such as tracking planets and comets, mapping constellations and phases of the moon. I also think Stargazing covers most stuff you would think of as Cosmos. We got to remember that religious and spiritual were intertwined with many of the early sciences before the scientific method.

Ceramics imply its crystalline.
Amphora = could be made of ceramic, terracotta, metals , porcelain, or pewter.

Then I am just wondering how that differs from say Pottery tech. At least with Ceramics as a tech it could represent more advanced forms of pottery. And as for an Amphora itself it may be better off as a resource or even an Amphora Maker building. Under maybe Sculpture tech.

The earliest use of Faconry was 2000 B.C Why is it in Prehistoric?

Mainly because of the techs around it. Many nomadic peoples use falcons/hawks/eagles so I felt it should be a pre-Sedentary Lifestyle tech.
 
Imo new techs should only be added when they improve gameplay .if a tech is well planned and balance ,i think it should be added
 
Another idea would be making some sort of Philosophy system similar to religions where you found Philosophy and it spreads. I just don't think it should be a tech that's all. The only way I would think it should be a tech is if we had civ specific tech trees (which some mods do). But sicne we are all about the payer customizing heir civs as they play, we cannot really go that route.

There was a mod that implemented philosophies as world views but let you only have one. I never did figure out how to control your own world view and kept having my nation switch between them which was a problem since it determined what wonders you could build.
 
There was a mod that implemented philosophies as world views but let you only have one. I never did figure out how to control your own world view and kept having my nation switch between them which was a problem since it determined what wonders you could build.

I know it won't stop them from switching but if its only given by say a Great Person or other limited unit would it keep them from switching often? Perhaps even a hero-like unit that only appears once. And it has the options to build only one of the world views. And since it can only be used once you can only get one world view.
 
@MrAzure

Here are some tech changes to avoid dead ends. Noe these may chnage when you post your classical era techs, but can be a good solution to what we have now.

Ancient Medicine
Req Techs: Code of Laws AND Soap Making AND Veterinary Medicine

Construction
Req Techs: Mathematics AND Monarchy AND Ancient Machinery AND Hydraulic Mining

City Planning
Req Techs: Roads AND Mail

Alphabet
Req Techs: Writing AND Linguistics

Aesthetics
Req Techs: Sericulture AND Geometry AND Calligraphy AND Furniture Making

Spice Trade
Req Techs: Salt Processing AND Calendar AND Cheese Making AND Sausage Making

Magic
Req Techs: Resurrection AND Folk Medicine AND Folk Dance AND Folk Music

Karma
Req Techs: Polytheism AND Heritage AND Magic

Mummification
Req Techs: Salt Processing AND Fermentation AND Magic

Astrology
Req Techs: Calendar AND Magic

Thanks! :goodjob:
 
@Hydro
I'll start working on that right now.

Here is in game Ancient Tech Tree if you want a quick look..

Note: Caananism shows up for me but its not on your Tech Tree. I didn't add it and it wasn't in TechInfos. Third pic, under Irrigation.

Spoiler :




 
Note: Caananism shows up for me but its not on your Tech Tree. I didn't add it and it wasn't in TechInfos.

That is because I used it to show how to make Caananism a fully optional religion. If you turn it off even its tech does not show up! It is defined in the Cannanism folder of Custom Religions.
 
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