Can Free Will Possibly Exist?

[CartesianFart]

You know when a person is conscious because you define consciousness as a certain state of the body and compare signals as a result of the models found through experiment.

Taking the symbolic meaning of consciousness that is something of a "thing-in-itself" and applying it to something that is observable such as our body such as the brain is a misleading one that does not make the role of the observer that does the experimenting a neutral one.

 

[warpus]

If your argument is that brains produce consciousness because things with brains are conscious, it's not a very useful definition.

I never claimed that all brains in existence produce consciousness. You just knocked down a strawman. Congratulations.

 

[Mise]

I'm not appealing to anything. If you can show me the space which thought occupies I'll be rather impressed. If you can show me how to think things without any time elapsing, I'll also be impressed. Please present any objections rather than making non-sequiturs.

I'm confused by these rhetorical questions.

Obvious answers:
1. Thought doesn't occupy space.
2. Thought cannot occur without time elapsing.

But that means that thought does not occupy space, but does occupy time.

How is it zero-dimensional if it occupies a finite length of time?

 

[punkbass2000]

I never claimed that all brains in existence produce consciousness.

I know. Hence words such as "if" and "suspicion".

 

[punkbass2000]

I'm confused by these rhetorical questions.

Obvious answers:
1. Thought doesn't occupy space.
2. Thought cannot occur without time elapsing.

But that means that thought does not occupy space, but does occupy time.

How is it zero-dimensional if it occupies a finite length of time?

Thought is one-dimensional. I think I said that to BE in this thread, but I could be mistaken.

 

[warpus]

I know. Hence words such as "if" and "suspicion".

So what's your point again? Not all brains produce consciousness - does this somehow imply that no brains produce consciousness?

Nope.. it doesn't change the fact that you can't point to a more probable source of it.. and are going to have to drop the objection that it originates in the brain, unless you can point to this alternate source & produce a probable cause for this line of reasoning (ie. data showing conscousness originates in the liver, etc.)

 

[punkbass2000]

My point is that consciousness does not originate anywhere. So prove me wrong.

 

[warpus]

My point is that consciousness does not originate anywhere. So prove me wrong.

It is tied to my visual cortex, to all my other senses, and to all my major organs somehow.. so yes, it must originate somewhere.

 

[Mise]

Thought is one-dimensional. I think I said that to BE in this thread, but I could be mistaken.

Sorry, you're right, you did. So what would be the analogous argument for consciousness?

 

[punkbass2000]

It is tied to my visual cortex, to all my other senses, and to all my major organs somehow.. so yes, it must originate somewhere.

If it is everywhere at all times, then it doesn't originate anywhere in particular.

 

[punkbass2000]

Sorry, you're right, you did. So what would be the analogous argument for consciousness?

I've yet to observe the beginning or end of consciousness, temporally or spatially.

 

[Prince_Imrahil]

Question for those who answered NO BUT NO DETERMINED DESTINY... How then is free will ot existant? Seems like a lot of you look at free will as how someone suggested Omnipotency includes the ability to defy logic...
It's obvious people are influened by etc. etc. etc. and taught etc. etc. and are conditioned by etc. etc. but does this nullify lack of choice?

Sure my choie may be based on x and y ad z, but it's enirly possile to still make different choices or refrain, is it not?

PS Puglover, aside from its existance, have my pm's convinced you a God who predetermines is a pathetic god and that religion is makes more sense if it advocates free will? Don't take into account my atheism, but look at the reasons why.

 

[Ayatollah So]

If it is everywhere at all times, then it doesn't originate anywhere in particular.

Apropos of not much in particular:

If consciousness is omnipresent, then is there any point in speaking of individual consciousnesses ("my consciousness," "your consciousness")?

I have the feeling we're approaching a Birdjaguarian God here...

 

[Mise]

I've yet to observe the beginning or end of consciousness, temporally or spatially.

I must admit to not having followed this thread from the start, and really just getting back into it because someone quoted me... but weren't you previously asking warpus/bill3000 for details on how one observes consciousness yourself?

I suspect that your argument is no more or less "true" than saying that the spatial extent of consciousness lies somewhere in the brain, and the temporal extent is from "birth" to death, since we both admit to never having observed either.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

The brain is the gate of consciousness, not the cause. [/Truth]

 

[Brighteye]

I never claimed that all brains in existence produce consciousness. You just knocked down a strawman. Congratulations.

I'd say something similar to the straw man actually. All consciousness in existence is a product of a brain.

 

[warpus]

If it is everywhere at all times, then it doesn't originate anywhere in particular.

Right, it originates nowhere specific in the brain, although I'm sure it likes to play around in a specific area of it.

I've yet to observe the beginning or end of consciousness, temporally or spatially.

What does that even mean?

All consciousness in existence is a product of a brain.

I would agree; nobody as of yet in this thread has produced a convincing argument outlining another origin..

 

[Bozo Erectus]

The brain is where consciousness happens: Warpus wins.

The brain is not the cause of consciousness: Punkbass wins.


Consciousness IS. The Brain IS.

Nuff said.

 

[warpus]

The brain is not the cause of consciousness

Why do you say that though?

 

[Fuzzz]

q: Do you believe in the concept of free will?
a: Yes, to a point (please elaborate)

I think you must believe in free will, otherwise you couldn't hold anyone responsible for his/her own actions. As an atheist I don't believe in a thing called predestination or fate, so again here I believe in free will.
Yet, I do believe in coincidence, which can alter what you planned to do.