canada discussion

[Scaramanga]

Uhh, does Canada even have a military anymore?

Everyone thinks the Canadian armed forces are a joke but consider this:

The world record for the longest confirmed sniper kill is held by a member of the Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry based in Edmonton, Alberta (2.4 km, Taliban target).

So we may look harmless but wait until we get far enough away from you that you won't know what hit you !

 

[Sisiutil]

If my old bones could support your harsh Winter, I would live in Canada.
And glory, leadership, prominence, and the like are good to make History, but
not to make happiness.
So, stay out of Civ and keep your nice place.
Best regards,

Ta. Some time ago my wife met a woman who emigrated to Canada from the Balkans. My wife mentioned in passing that many people think of Canada as boring. The woman said to her, "After a tank drives over your home, you want to live somewhere that's boring."

Don't you know Vancouver is a fairly warm place? Your old bones probably won't get freeze-dried there.

My old bones are indeed comfortably warm here. Soggy, but reasonably warm.

Everyone thinks the Canadian armed forces are a joke but consider this:

The world record for the longest confirmed sniper kill is held by a member of the Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry based in Edmonton, Alberta (2.4 km, Taliban target).

So we may look harmless but wait until we get far enough away from you that you won't know what hit you !

 

[rabidveggie]

Canada's army is small but specialized. In WWI Canadian troops were considered to be the finest and had one of the top generals of that war. WWII Canadians yet again were near the top although I believe Australian and Indian troops were considered better. Today Canadian troops are fewer but they are just as good as their ancestors. They really only die from inferior equipment which was recently solved and their inferior trained American counterparts.

 

[Sisiutil]

Canada's army is small but specialized. In WWI Canadian troops were considered to be the finest and had one of the top generals of that war. WWII Canadians yet again were near the top although I believe Australian and Indian troops were considered better. Today Canadian troops are fewer but they are just as good as their ancestors. They really only die from inferior equipment which was recently solved and their inferior trained American counterparts.

Do you really think the Americans aren't well-trained? I think they're just over-enthused (yes I'm trying to be diplomatic).

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Do you really think the Americans aren't well-trained? I think they're just over-enthused (yes I'm trying to be diplomatic).

Americans are very well-trained. It's my understanding that they bombed those Canadian troops because the American pilots thought they were flying over enemy territory and therefore mistook the Canadians for enemies. A serious blunder, but you can't say that Canadian pilots wouldn't have possibly made the same mistake had the positions been reversed. Right now, the biggest problem America's military has is Washington DC. Politicians are trying to dictate what we do in war, instead of allowing the general to take control. We have very good generals, and I believe if they had full say in everything we do militarily, our current struggle would be much more successful.

 

[dcbandicoot]

In 2005 Canada had a population of over 32 million. Netherlands had 16 mil, Portugal had 10 mil and Greece 11 mil, all smaller markets compared to Canada, but 1 is already in and 2 of these will be likely included. Other "big markets" already in the game had population from 43 mil (Spain), 46 mil (S. Korea), 58 mil (Italy), 60 mil (France), 82 mil (Germany). It's true they are bigger markets than Canada, but really not that much bigger. These are all developed countries so their purchase powers are not really that different.

So in short, one may argue whether Canada should be in the game due to historical or political reasons, but market size should not be a true concern. On the contrary, if profit is the only goal, adding one leader to spice up the product to attract a market of 32+ million potential buyers sounds like a decent investment IMHO.

Netherlands and Portugal are not in the game yet, and to even suggest that Greece shouldn't be in the game is completely absurd...

 

[gettingfat]

Netherlands and Portugal are not in the game yet, and to even suggest that Greece shouldn't be in the game is completely absurd...

Nobody suggest Greece shouldn't be in the game. I guess I am not such an idiot to overlook the historical and cultural importance of Greece. The post was to argue that if market size is a major consideration, Netherlands and Portugal, two civs strongly proposed by a number of posters here, should even be lower than Canada on the priority list. The fact that Greece is a small market but is in the game suggests that market size is not necessarily a deciding factor. But if market size is indeed to be considered, Canada is not a unpopulated icy tundra with only polar bears and wolves as somebody would tend to believe.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

*sigh*

We do this with every release of Civ and every expansion pack that follows.

Let me hammer home a point, here:

There are NO hard guidelines as to what constitutes a civ in this game. There never have been. The core empires - the ones in every game - are generally the ones people will recognize most. That isn't to say they weren't the most powerful or most successful in history, but that isn't the point.

The point is to have a product that appeals to most people (and by "most people" it means the American and European markets). That's what they lump everything and the kitchen sink in "China" and "India", for instance. It's why America is included alongside of Greece. It's why Japan is strictly feudal in its depiction.

Firaxis would never add Canada because there is no real marketing reason to do so (nor Australia, nor Brazil).

Having said that...

To argue that Canada "hasn't earned" a place is based on...what exactly? That they never went on a crusade to conquer half of Europe, like every single European power did at one time or another? Ridiculous.

Most folks buying this game have never heard of some major Asian powers that controlled enourmous territories. And the few that have would not argue they deserve to be in over Spain,even if they ruled more land for longer periods of time.

And, yes, Poland and Portugal had golden ages. And all of it led to....??? Anyone here think either of those countries is more influential in 2007 that a G-8 member nation with both gas and oil reserves, and a leading technological sector?

I'm neither putting down Poland nor overemphasizing Canada. I just think it's interesting that so many are eager to decide "worthiness" based primarily on European history from 1300-1700.

Anyone that wants to come up with hard and fast rules on what is "worthy", please do so...then we can see how fast we eliminate a big chunk of Firaxis civs from this and past editions.

 

[Esckey]

Canada shouldn't be in the game. Its some where after Switzerland but before Vietnam.

Canada isn't that big on the world stage so it shouldn't be in and by that reasoning nor should the USA

 

[GeneralMatt]

I voted yes, though I doubt they will be in.
Mostly as I love my country, and would probably die for it but..

A very interesting conversation (Not a lot of Canada bashing so I enjoyed it).

In historical terms, we aren't very huge, though to me our history is quite long.
To me though, choosing to stay with the mother country (Ie England/Britain) is just as a valid choice as revolting as the US did.

But ah well, the whole market thing "does" affect it unfortunatley, even though I am going to try to buy it wether they do or do not include Canada.

The world record for the longest confirmed sniper kill is held by a member of the Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry based in Edmonton, Alberta (2.4 km, Taliban target).

I don't follow rifle's and stuff, but IMO that is a LONG way, I can't even imagining SEEING anyone that far away...

 

[Glenngodfather]

If I may, I'd like to use a real-world argument I heard a few months back from a historian on CSPAN re: why America and Canada are viewed differently in terms of impact on the world. I think it implies well to Civilization too. This isn't an anti-Canada post, but rather an explanation of why two seemingly similar nations are not judged the same in regards to the history of civilization. I apologize in advance for the paraphrasing, but this was the gist the argument:

America is influential on the world's historical stage because it was able to forge a unique and (at the time) innovative cultural identity that Canada could not. World history has a good idea of what it is to be "American" or to have the "American dream": a nation built upon the idea of democratic innovation, multiculturalism, and the desire to rise from an impoverished immigrant to a prosperous "American." While Canada also holds the ideals, they never capitalized on them culturally, as America did. They never encapusated a "Canadian dream" or shown the world what it is to be a "Canadian."

Basically, although America's sister colonies of Canada and Australia went on to become great countries, they have not had the impact on general civilization as America has. I think when Firaxis decides which civs to include in the game, one of the major criteria that they consider is the civ's impact on civilization as a whole, and how history changed because of them (good or bad). Canada is just not there yet.

excellent argument

 

[Glenngodfather]

As a Canadian, I think what you cited is fairly misleading.

You think that Canada does not have a strong democratic value, or more liberal idealism?

You think the immigrants to Canada don't have a dream? I am an immigrant, and I like Canada. I have tons of immigrant friends, coming from different parts of the planet, they all love here.

Multiculturalism? Stop kidding. Canada is WAY more culturally tolerant. As a Chinese, I feel like myself in Canada. I lived in US for over a year, and I had to be like an American at that time.

So instead of claiming the US for being more able to capitalize "culturally", I'd rather attribute it to the stronger economy of US when compared to Canada. I don't care how horrible a big-Mac tastes (OK...one big-Mac is fine with me, try a few in a week, it tastes like xxxx), by putting enough money to hardsell it and package it, it will "taste good". Make it simple, the so-called American "culture" is basically 95% a product of commericalization and aggressive marketing supported by strong funding.

Then you may challenge, why do the Americans do a better job in economy than the Canadians? Doesn't it imply superior cultural value, or superior education system, or superior whatever in the US? As a Chinese, I don't find much "culture" in the US. As a post-doc when living in the US, from what I saw IMHO an average American college student is not as knowledgeable and smart as an average Canadian student at similar level.

What it basically comes down to is the US occupied a stretch of land with better weather and more readily available resources (and the much larger population and thus a bigger market as a result). Say one day God (or whatever, just fill in the blank) freezes half of your land. I'd really want to see how culturally vibrant you guys will become.

better argument

 

[Glenngodfather]

I find it.. Ignorant? That many posts above have spoken of Canada as an "Insignificant" country.

Here I was with the impression that it was the second largest country in the world. -The- most valuable country in the world in terms of natural resources. That it was a membet of both NATO and NAFTA. That it had one of the top education systems in the world. That it introduced peace-keeping. That it invented hockey, basketball, the telephone, the TV. Lead the way for the super-sonic yet. That it is one of the g-7 countries. That it has one of the fastest growing populations in the world. One of the few that has medical covered by its government. That it is a leader in state of the art technology; From technological wounders such as the space arm and advanced graphics(See: 300 movie), to medical break throughs ahead of any other country. Canada invted refinning. Has more accessable clean water than any other nation. Canda has the worlds longest street, the worlds tallest self supported structure, the worlds longest bridge. A -falling- crime rate. Higher ranked scholars than most countries (See: Microsoft employees).
Canadians invented the baseball glove. Discovered and mass produced insulin. INVITED THE KICHEN STOVE. Had headlined womans rights. Canada has had a woman 2nd in command at the UN. Canada has the longest inclined tower in the world. Canada has a trade surplus. Canada has world reknown music and art. Canadian citizens have the longest life expentancy out of any country in the world. Over-all has the best "quality of life" rating compaired to any other country in the world. Canadian doctors where the first to map the human brain. Canada has never owned slaves. Canada is among the most popular tourist destination in the wrold. Canada recieves twice as many immigrants per capita than the US. Canada is pat of the UN security council. Canada leads all economic powers in economic growth. It has the worlds -best- infastructure. Very low inflation. Falling unemployment rates. Unsurpassed social programs. Soaring stocks. Canada generally takes more metals per cpaita than any other country at the Olympics. Oh.. Did I mention that the US's world famous nuclear bombs.. Came from Canada? Or at least all of the important resources required to build them.

The Canadian military played a ~huge~ part in WW1 and WW2. Possibly effecting the outcome of the wars directly. The strongest military in the world right now (The US Army) was trained directly by the Canadian Armed Forces. And though the US has unriviled military strength (Numbers wise) Canada still remains among the best trained military in the world. With advances from the simple soldier to aerospace fields. It is a fact that Canadian soldiers are often used by the US army because their own personal lack training on the same level. [Oh did I mention that Canada has -the best- snipers in the world? For recent news on Canadian snipers (See: Afganistan)]

Oh hey.. And I thought i'd add a breif, breif summery of the country the land that is currently called "Canada". Perhaps anyone that still believes Canada is 'insignificant' (Yes.. Canada.. That country that if it where to be 'removed' from that face of the earth, the world market would crash. The Us econ would instantly bottom out, and they would be left starving. Litterly. Yep.. That one.. Canada) perhaps they could give the short timeline a quick read:

BEST ARGUMENT WOOT! although it should be noted that the russian counter-attack won ww2 if it wasnt for them germany would've invaded britain [so dont stump down to the level of the americans and give urselfs credit for winning the war. it was all russia]

 

[Glenngodfather]

The nationsin the game have been justified in some way e.g. large, influential empire (Britain should be in the game and NO England is not Britain no matter what anyone says, thats just historiacally ignorant). Or they had some influence in history or other reason

Considering that england conquered wales, scotland and ireland [only the north now] i think its fair to call it the english empire. [i'm irish if ur wondering where my point of view is coming from]

 

[Glenngodfather]

i spent 20 minutes writing a message and it wouldnt let me post it cos i was logged out. i want those 20 minutes back canada!

 

[Antilogic]

Well, I'm un-subscribing to this thread. It's getting somewhat old...

I think I'm just going to stop talking about the civilizations and leaders in the next expansion. These threads are starting to lose their appeal...it's all opinion, at the core, and trying to reason with some on these boards has become ridiculous.

 

[rabidveggie]

Oh sorry my bad about American troops being inferior in fact the top American specialists are better then the best Canadians. The problem with many troops being trained less is the US army is so large that some troops are simply trained as jeep drivers and nothing else.
I don't think Canada should get into the game because of market size or military achievements although we can boast a few, but because of our peace keeping, cultural, and economic ability. Just because we're north of a superpower should not mean Canada is overlooked.

 

[Dutch Canuck]

I'm a Canadian and I think our country is too young to be a civ in the core game. However, a WWII mod, a post colonial mod, or a mod focused upon civilizations blossoming in the industrial era and ending into the future times, are viable situations where Canada can be a real power and thus worthy of being included in the game!

Another way to look at it: America is in the middle or near-end of its "golden age" (it may have another many many years from now), Europe and most of rest of the developed world have had plenty of golden ages already, Canada has yet to experience hers. So guess CIV as a game features only those civs that have had, or are experiencing, golden ages. It's a different way to look at it, but as one criterion for inclusion, it makes some sense actually.

Cheers to all the canucks here!

 

[Aptenodytes]

No because Canada hasn't really done anything great like China or Russia.

 

[S.P.Q.R]

I belive the only country that should be in the civilization series is the Us. If the US had never revolted against the british empire, then there wouldn't be any South American Countries, Central Americans countrys. The US issued the Monroe Doctrine. This stated that the US would stop trading the interfered with South and central american countries.
Canada should not be included in the game because it hasn't played a huge role in wars because of its small population and army. It hasn't been around for a long time. The most important reason I can think of is there are so many other civilization that deserv being in over Canada.