"Capitalism made your iPhone"

[Birdjaguar]

Dachs! What a nice surprise!!

 

[Lexicus]

An what is an example of an existing just system?

Sort of a meaningless question, isn't it, when a just system is just an abstraction? But we can certainly identify specific ways in which existing systems fall short of what we think a just system might look like, and perhaps even talk about how to improve things. There are more and less unjust systems and we can tell the difference.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Exactly. Success in an unjust system is not an indication of merit - quite the opposite.

Sort of a meaningless question, isn't it, when a just system is just an abstraction? But we can certainly identify specific ways in which existing systems fall short of what we think a just system might look like, and perhaps even talk about how to improve things. There are more and less unjust systems and we can tell the difference.

Well, you raised the issue. If just systems are just abstractions, then they are not real. If they are not real, then we are all parading around in and acting on behalf of unjust systems. So all of our successes are meritless? Do you see your union work as participating in an unjust system? Is it meaningless? It is a pretty dismal perspective on the world.

Your very broad generalizations are the meaningless aspects of your position. All of those positions fall apart when examined closely.

 

[jackelgull]

Well, you raised the issue. If just systems are just abstractions, then they are not real. If they are not real, then we are all parading around in and acting on behalf of unjust systems. So all of our successes are meritless? Do you see your union work as participating in an unjust system? Is it meaningless? It is a pretty dismal perspective on the world.

Your very broad generalizations are the meaningless aspects of your position. All of those positions fall apart when examined closely.

I know I'm not Lexi, but I accept a very specific definition of justice as my grounding framework. A just system ensures, to the best of its ability, the essential dignity, equal standing under the law, and basic physical needs, of all people. It's difficult to imagine what such a perfected system in its fully complete form will look like, but it is easy to see where it falls short, and what policy incentives and ideas lead us to it falling short. In a competition with other priorities, justice should win out, but unfortunately, it seems more and more people are captured with the idea that money should win out, or order should win out and the statement, "And that's why unfortunately, a lot of peple are going to have to die" seems more and more implicit in our news and society.

 

[Lexicus]

So all of our successes are meritless?

I would say that I believe most of the success that happens in our current system is way less attributable to 'merit,' however we choose to define that, than we often think.

Your very broad generalizations are the meaningless aspects of your position. All of those positions fall apart when examined closely.

My "broad generalizations" are polemic statements. I think I've added enough nuance subsequently to those generalizations that this is an unfair characterization of my positions.

Do you see your union work as participating in an unjust system? Is it meaningless?

No, not meaningless, and certainly participating in an unjust system, but it does often depress me quite a bit. My union is quite right-wing.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I know I'm not Lexi,

That is a great place to start. Is there anyone else that you know you are not? These forums are open enough that anyone gets to respond to any post.

...but I accept a very specific definition of justice as my grounding framework. A just system ensures, to the best of its ability, the essential dignity, equal standing under the law, and basic physical needs, of all people. It's difficult to imagine what such a perfected system in its fully complete form will look like, but it is easy to see where it falls short, and what policy incentives and ideas lead us to it falling short. In a competition with other priorities, justice should win out, but unfortunately, it seems more and more people are captured with the idea that money should win out, or order should win out and the statement, "And that's why unfortunately, a lot of people are going to have to die" seems more and more implicit in our news and society.

The best most of us can do is to be just in our actions so that we encourage more just actions in others. Money often wins out because it is an easy solution and can be measured. It is also important if one wants some security in an uncertain world. Finding a personal balance is important. As soon as one has a family and/or long term responsibilities for others, the money side grows in importance.

I would say that I believe most of the success that happens in our current system is way less attributable to 'merit,' however we choose to define that, than we often think.

We would probably have to define both merit and success.

My "broad generalizations" are polemic statements. I think I've added enough nuance subsequently to those generalizations that this is an unfair characterization of my positions.

The problem with overly broad generalizations is that numerous exceptions are easy to find thus diminishing the value of the generalization.

No, not meaningless, and certainly participating in an unjust system, but it does often depress me quite a bit. My union is quite right-wing.

That's too bad. Grasp small victories, build your power to effect more meaningful changes and find ways to disrupt the thinking of others and point them towards better solutions.

 

[Angst]

CFC post count.

lmao i love it

wait is this a rd thread

... no

alright, back to the point:

lmao i love it