"Capitalism made your iPhone"

[Zelig]

As for businesses, does anyone know why more co-operative businesses don't exist? REI and MEC are two great examples of successful co-operatives. Why isn't this sort of thing more common?

Tough to get filthy rich by founding a Co-op.

Although it really depends on locality - Fortress Calgary is home to one of North America's largest retail co-operatives.

 

[Birdjaguar]

In the universe from which I originate, it's spelled Fruit Loops.

As for businesses, does anyone know why more co-operative businesses don't exist? REI and MEC are two great examples of successful co-operatives. Why isn't this sort of thing more common?

Short answer: Most people start businesses to make a living for themselves. To do so the owner needs focus and discipline. A non profit coop tends to make less money and demands a different set of skills.

 

[Lexicus]

You need to get out more and meet people who own and run businesses. Not only do businesses vary greatly in size, scope and the way they treat customers and staff, but the people who run them are all very different too. they each have their own motivations for doing what they do. What do you do for a living?

I'll say I painted with too broad a brush there. Replace it with "people who control the largest companies" if you prefer. Examples of what I'm talking about more specifically:

-all the world's largest financial institutions are criminal organizations engaged in, at minimum, moneylaundering and fraud
-a very large proportion of the financial services industry provides financial services to people who make their money by criminal or unethical means
-any company involved in global supply chains is almost certainly involved in some criminal behavior. Responsibility for this is I would put mainly on the largest and most powerful actors involved in any given value chain. An example would be Apple using its market share to demand phone parts from Chinese suppliers at prices that ensure the suppliers are committing fraud, violating labor standards, or both
-all sorts of fraud, labor standards violations, unfair labor practices, and so on are endemic in the United States. Every crappy low-wage job I've worked in my life, with one exception, was for an employer who violated labor laws.

This list is not exhaustive, obviously, but I think we really underestimate the degree to which economic inequality today, at the country and at the global scale, is driven by behavior that is criminal even according to the flawed legal systems we currently have. As for what I do for a living, it's strategic research for a US labor union - so my job involves precisely learning about the bad behavior that employers in our labor market get up to. I'll be the first to admit that this has prejudiced me to some degree, but my work has also driven home how ubiquitously criminal the ruling class really is.

 

[civvver]

At least some sex is pure, no marketing is pure.

What are you even talking about? All marketing is not exploitative. Marketing is often just info to let people know about your product. Sometimes it's a product you were even looking for before hand like man, I wish there was a sale on this and then you see an ad for just that.

 

[Lexicus]

What are you even talking about? All marketing is not exploitative. Marketing is often just info to let people know about your product. Sometimes it's a product you were even looking for before hand like man, I wish there was a sale on this and then you see an ad for just that.

Marketing is propaganda disseminated for profit rather than for ideological ends.

 

[warpus]

Short answer: Most people start businesses to make a living for themselves. To do so the owner needs focus and discipline. A non profit coop tends to make less money and demands a different set of skills.

I didn't say a non-profit co-op though. I just said co-op.

MEC is my favourite place to buy hiking and camping supplies. It's an environmentally friendly store, their products are top notch, they are priced very competitively, and they treat me (and other customers) very very well. Not only that, but when they set up shop in town they put a competing company out of business. In my eyes they are doing everything right.

So it's not like it's a bunch of clueless hippies selling fruit or whatever.

 

[civvver]

Marketing is propaganda disseminated for profit rather than for ideological ends.

Yes but profit is often a byproduct of providing a beneficial service. I mean heck, dentists advertise on tv and in print. Does that mean the dentist is trying to exploit you? I mean it's possible. I have been to a dentist who constantly pushed us to get extra procedures. But in general you should go to a dentist. Ads are just the dentist's way of saying hey I'm around, instead of counting on word of mouth or proximity and you driving by their office, etc.

 

[Lexicus]

Yes but profit is often a byproduct of providing a beneficial service. I mean heck, dentists advertise on tv and in print. Does that mean the dentist is trying to exploit you? I mean it's possible. I have been to a dentist who constantly pushed us to get extra procedures. But in general you should go to a dentist. Ads are just the dentist's way of saying hey I'm around, instead of counting on word of mouth or proximity and you driving by their office, etc.

If the goal of marketing were to inform people, it would look very different. I'm guessing you don't know much about marketing if you genuinely believe its purpose is to inform people of anything. It's purpose is to convince people to buy the thing being marketed. Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to say marketing is uniquely evil or that marketing is "exploitative" (though some is, and we do rightfully have legal remedies for egregious false advertisement) but it is propaganda, it is not honest or informative (except by accident), and its goal is profit.

Incidentally, I suspect we are defining profit differently as to my mind profit is generally a byproduct of stealing from people who provide a beneficial service (ie, profits go to the owners of a firm while the beneficial service is provided by the people who work for it).

 

[luiz]

Marketing is propaganda disseminated for profit rather than for ideological ends.

No, and marketing and advertisement are not synonyms either. Sometimes marketing is just about finding the right market for your stuff - no propaganda at all.

 

[Lexicus]

No, and marketing and advertisement are not synonyms either. Sometimes marketing is just about finding the right market for your stuff - no propaganda at all.

Okay, fair enough, but still, that just means that propaganda is the 'advertising' part of marketing, and the rest of marketing - as defined by wikipedia -

Marketing is the study and management of exchange relationships.[1][2] The American Marketing Association has defined marketing as "the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large." [3]

Is basically the stuff you do to ensure your propaganda is effective and targeted properly.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Okay, fair enough, but still, that just means that propaganda is the 'advertising' part of marketing, and the rest of marketing - as defined by wikipedia -



Is basically the stuff you do to ensure your propaganda is effective and targeted properly.

Propaganda = marketing = what you do to impress your date, wife, significant other, children, client, boss or coworker etc.

 

[Lexicus]

Propaganda = marketing = what you do to impress your date, wife, significant other, children, client, boss or coworker etc.

Yep, I don't disagree with this at all. As I said in the post above I'm not trying to claim that marketing is some unique evil, but I had to object to a poster claiming its main purpose is to inform people.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yep, I don't disagree with this at all. As I said in the post above I'm not trying to claim that marketing is some unique evil, but I had to object to a poster claiming its main purpose is to inform people.

Good marketing can and does inform people. Not all marketing is good marketing.

 

[civvver]

Yep, I don't disagree with this at all. As I said in the post above I'm not trying to claim that marketing is some unique evil, but I had to object to a poster claiming its main purpose is to inform people.

Marketing is evil just not a unique evil? So presenting the best image of oneself is now evil as well since it's personal marketing?

I didn't say advertising is only to inform, I'm just saying I welcome some advertisements because without them I wouldn't be exposed to products I actually want and that benefit me. Like every time taco bell introduces a new burrito

 

[Lexicus]

Marketing is evil just not a unique evil?

It, like most everything else humans do, has its evils. Certainly some kinds of marketing (cigarettes to children, for example) are pretty much unabated evil.

Good marketing can and does inform people. Not all marketing is good marketing.

As I said, it only informs people by accident.

 

[Narz]

This is interesting as I view "people in charge of companies" as, almost without exception, criminals. I have no problem referring to these people as enemies because that is precisely what they are to the majority of people. They are not going to be on your side because they don't believe in egalitarianism, they believe that some people are inherently better than others and that these better people deserve to be rich. I mean, I admire the impulses behind this stance of yours but I think it is essentially based on a fantasy

Research supports your opinion. Power corrupts and even if you give someone to power to alter rules to serve themselves they still feel as if they deserve their gains.

 

[Lexicus]

Research supports your opinion. Power corrupts and even if you give someone to power to alter rules to serve themselves they still feel as if they deserve their gains.

Exactly. Success in an unjust system is not an indication of merit - quite the opposite.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Exactly. Success in an unjust system is not an indication of merit - quite the opposite.

An what is an example of an existing just system?

 

[Traitorfish]

An what is an example of an existing just system?

CFC post count.

 

[Dachs]

CFC post count.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Man, I've been gone for years and the numbers have still barely moved at all.