Capto Iugulum Background Thread

[Lord of Elves]

Scandinavia sits in Northern Europe, has no blue water projection capabilities, and has lost every conflict it participated in this century. Of course no one listens to you. It doesn't bother Brazil in the slightest if other people change Moralism. It never planned to force Moralism on anyone. Cause, well, that isn't very Christian.

You are either forgetting or intentionally not mentioning a number of successful proxy conflicts, though if it's the latter you have my thanks for your discretion

 

[Jehoshua]

You argument is basically saying, Moralists have to be Catholic because to be a moralist you have to follow Catholic scripture and thus a moralist society must abandon Halakha and Sharia, which is a circular argument - Moralists must be catholic because only catholics can be moralist. The argument only works if the sole version of Moralism you accept as legitimate is the one the Pope pushes. Which is kind of bizarre given multiple people have made the point that Brazilian and Papal Moralism is different. Not accepting Brazilian Moralism as a legitimate form of moralism is like saying "Well, Maoists aren't real communists." which might be true from some kind of ideological angle but really isn't helpful for the argument.

You aren't getting my argument at all. Natural law can apply beyond the Church (indeed the Church lacks a "revealed law", so your point about "must follow Catholic scripture" is just wrong, since scripture doesn't for Catholics set out a specific social code), such as with Protestants, Orthodox, even Hindu's and Buddhists. But Im not sure a natural law based moral calculus could be translated into the context of a moral system of revealed laws like Halakha where there are very specific rules that jews are bound to follow, and still be say "Jewish" in religious character. Moralism may be able to coexist alongside Halakha I'm sure with jews following it, but there might perhaps be tensions there amongst the people of Israel over its place amongst them.

In all seriousness, if there is some kind of Zionist or Jewish nationalist movement in CI, it might well be a heavily religious one inspired by Brazilian Moralism.

Indeed, moralism could serve as the inspiration for a Zionist movement. Although a Zionist movement perhaps would lack the impetus in this timeline due to the absence of a holocaust, and either way its far less likely to get its end-goal due to the unwillingness of the Holy Lands current occupants to bow to their wishes.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Actually it should be mentioned a Zionist movement already exists, and in fact would probably try to claim credit for the existence of moralism if asked. Unfortunately for them, they have not gained much momentum, at least not in the OTL way. With the current immigration laws of the Papal Holy Land, most who can afford to have begun moving to the Holy Land as is. What this will mean for Catholic rule as the Jewish population becomes larger and larger is a matter I'm keeping a close eye on.

At the same time, the Jews haven't been as hard pressed in Europe as in OTL right now, so there's some major differences taking place. On the flip side of that, Russian oppression of the Jews hasn't really changed for a good long while, and they continue that fine past time to this day. It's not an organized extermination or anything, but overall, if you're Jewish, you dream of moving to the holy land. It's quite possible this could one day create a strong local faction in papal or Italian holdings which seeks to overthrow the old order and establish a Jewish state. We will see, no?

 

[Luckymoose]

Maybe these Jews should talk to Brazil about setting up a Zionist paradise in Norway.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

You keep away from the Vinlandic ancestral homelands.

 

[Lord of Elves]

The Fatherland can speak for itself, and it shall never be sundered.

 

[Jehoshua]

What this will mean for Catholic rule as the Jewish population becomes larger and larger is a matter I'm keeping a close eye on.

Catholics > Other Christians > Jews > None of the Aforementioned is the immigration schema iirc to the Holy Land. So although the jewish population in the Holy Land proportionately is increasing, so presumably is the Christian proportion (and likely to a greater degree considering said laws) particularly in light of Islamic sentiments elsewhere in the middle east, which would likely encourage emigration to the Holy Land.

That said, If the Jews become problematic I can always change my immigration laws or in the event of violent unrest pull out the old "expulsion of the jews" card.

 

[Circuit]

So here's something I'm kinda curious about. In OTL Russian culture (if I'm not mistaken) in the 19th century, there was a strong French influence amongst the elite (read War and Peace, for example; lots of French words; I've also heard that the fuzzy hats Russians are known for originated from France). Is that the case in CI, without there being a strong France? Just something I've wondered.

 

[Nuka-sama]

Wrong on both accounts. Napoleon was brought on as a junior ruling member of the military Directory. He gained enough popularity to consolidate power and remove the other two members of the junta. And he actually was elected. Prior to crowning himself Emperor, he held a national referendum asking of the French people wanted him to be Emperor and they overwhelmingly said yes. Granted, the only other option on the ballot was to dissolve the nation of France, but it still counts as an election.

Rubber stamping =/= election, no matter what it might be called to the "voters"

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

@Jehoshua: Problem with that formula is that Christians aren't really taking you up on your laws. The Jews are.

@Circuit: The current Russia bears more resemblance in culture and society to Peter the Great's Russia than 19th century Russia.

 

[Luckymoose]

@Circuit: The current Russia bears more resemblance in culture and society to Peter the Great's Russia than 19th century Russia.

And Peter the Great's Russia was the reason 19th century Russia had so much French. But for CI, I imagine it would be something along the lines of Roman culture or Scandinavian (before Mannerheim). Otherwise the whole empire is a backwater that will eventually implode. Oh, wait, that happens to Russia no matter when it is.

 

[Lord of Elves]

I imagine Luckymoose is right in imagining Russia as being similar, somewhat, to imperial Scandinavia. Considering the House Vasa empowered Muscovy, and Scandinavian businesses made Russia's rapid military and continental-colonial expansion possible, the Russian aristocracy may very well speak Swedish as a language of convenience/learning and technology. Russo-Scandinavian antipathy is a recent phenomenon, within light of the Revolution, and Scandinavian proletarists are often reluctant to condemn the Russian people inasmuch as the Russian government.

Anti-Russian propaganda in Scandinavia normally avoids depictions of the Russian populace as alien and inhuman, instead taking the position that the naturally-noble and hardworking Russian proletariat has been taken advantage of by the evil Muscovite royalty.

 

[Ahigin]

So here's something I'm kinda curious about. In OTL Russian culture (if I'm not mistaken) in the 19th century, there was a strong French influence amongst the elite (read War and Peace, for example; lots of French words; I've also heard that the fuzzy hats Russians are known for originated from France). Is that the case in CI, without there being a strong France? Just something I've wondered.

First of all, the hats. The furry hats of Napoleonic French grenadiers never had an analogue in Russian military. Compare this:

to this:

As for papaha hats worn by the Cossacks, they were made of sheep skin and originated from Caucasus. That's a part of the national costume there, so it's thousands years old.

As for the cultural influence, it depends on what part of the 19th century you're talking about. War and Peace takes place in the early 1800, when French influence was huge indeed. In the second part of the 19th century there was first a rush of English and later German influence. The latter was especially easy to settle among Russians, because of a big percentage of ethnic Germans who lived in Russia since Peter the Great.

Also, keep in mind that the Russian society was always split between European-influenced nobility and very Slavophile ordinary people.

Also, Lucky, Peter the Great wasn't the reason why Russian nobility had so much French influence. Peter brought a lot of Dutch and German immigrants to Russia, and French became a second language of Russian nobility in the late 18th century, under Catherine the Great.

As for what it means for CI, I'd imagine Greek and Latin being extremely popular among the CI Russian nobles, maybe with some people still being fluent in Swedish. Most of the population, though, must be still very Slavic and xenophobic to everything that's not (maybe, with an exception of Greek things, since the Russian Orthodox Church must be very Greek-influenced).

 

[Luckymoose]

Also, Lucky, Peter the Great wasn't the reason why Russian nobility had so much French influence. Peter brought a lot of Dutch and German immigrants to Russia, and French became a second language of Russian nobility in the late 18th century, under Catherine the Great.

I don't think you understand the importance of French and the impact it had on Peter, and then Catherine. French was practically universal.

 

[Ahigin]

I don't think you understand the importance of French and the impact it had on Peter, and then Catherine. French was practically universal.

I don't think you know what you're talking about. I'm Russian, and I know the history of my country very, very, very well.

Peter was influenced by the Dutch and Germans. He never visited France, he didn't speak French, he hardly had a single French emigre in his service. Catherine was indeed influenced by the French culture later in her life, when she embraced the idea of enlightened despotism and started her famous letter exchange with Voltaire, but nevertheless German influence remained huge under her: she was actually German herself, after all, and her real name was Sophie Auguste Friederike von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg.

 

[Shadowbound]

@Circuit: The current Russia bears more resemblance in culture and society to Peter the Great's Russia than 19th century Russia.

...which would be absolutely terrible for maintaining a modern industrial state.

Peter the Great's Russia is hardly a working model for a long period of time because it was a transitional period. Peter dragged Russia kicking and screaming into the 17th century, importing European advisors and sending Russians abroad to study sciences. This kind of outlook is going to lead to Russia adopting European language and custom, at least among the upper class, as the government is basically saying "This is what we like. Do this and you'll get to be relevant."

Russia, in order to become an actual world power like it is in the NES, would have needed to transition off this model. Otherwise the divide between the nobility and the peasantry will grow wider and wider. The common people, who make up most of the army, won't be willing to sacrifice for the state, an outcome we can see clearly in the difference between WW1 and WW2. This means the development of a native Russian educational culture, which we can get a glimpse of by looking at the education spending.

Looking at Russian stats, what I can tell you is that education spending is woefully deficient. It's a third of what it should be. Only the upper classes receive a modern education, which significantly affects the pool from which you can recruit scientists and engineers. Russia's militarist leanings also mean that the best and brightest of its leadership go into the army, rather than into civil administration or the sciences. The only reason it's able to function on par with powers like Germany and Britain is because of its massive population, which means that even if you divide the available scientific pool a couple of times via a dysfunctional educational system you still have one that's comparable.

Its definitely possible for Russia to continue to function as an absolute monarchy, and to have the kind of scientific base that it does, but there'd be massive inefficiency and inequality. And this status quo is dependent on the lower classes being kept ill-educated, distracted by bread and circuses, and ruthlessly oppressed by the secret police. Which is hardly a winning strategy in the long-run, especially with Proletarist Scandinavia right next door. The ability of the system to withstand any external shock is incredibly doubtful, and this is reflected in how the only countries with worse stability seem to be in Africa.

I don't think you know what you're talking about. I'm Russian, and I know the history of my country very, very, very well.

Peter was influenced by the Dutch and Germans. He never visited France, he didn't speak French, he hardly had a single French emigre in his service. Catherine was influenced by the French culture later in her life, when she embraced the idea of enlightened despotism and started her famous letter exchange with Voltaire, but nevertheless German influence remained huge under her: she was actually German herself, after all, and her real name was Sophie Auguste Friederike von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg.

FALSE.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Actually Shadowbound has pretty much just hit my thoughts on it in the head, though I'd say in addition to bread and circuses, the Russians do enjoy a good pogrom on occasion to break up the monotony. It should also be noted that when you compare a manpower to EP ratio, Russia is actually woefully behind most similar powers, despite its massive share of the global EP. Overall though, I fully agree with Shadowbound's analysis of the situation.

 

[Ahigin]

FALSE.

Wow, that's pretty interesting. Thanks, one of my arguments is invalid.

 

[Luckymoose]

Wow, that's pretty interesting. Thanks, one of my arguments is invalid.

Actually, all of them are. I'm an American and I know the history of the world very, very, very well.

 

[Ahigin]

Actually, all of them are. I'm an American and I know the history of the world very, very, very well.

All of them are? Are you ready to prove that Peter didn't live in Zaandam, the Netherlands, for several years, that his Grand Embassy didn't visit Brandenburg, Netherlands, Great Britain, and Austria, and that Catherine the Great wasn't German? I actually would love to read your version of Russian history.

BTW, if you actually read the article Shadowbound gave the link to, Peter visited Versailles in 1717, two decades after the start of his reforms. So the only thing that was really wrong about my previous post was literally that he never visited France.

Lucky, you're fun to play CI with, but sometimes you argue for the sake of arguing.