Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Also this TL's Iran includes Iraq, south-Central Asia, Afghanistan, and parts of Pakistan, so yeah.
Capto Iugulum Background Thread
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
Also this TL's Iran includes Iraq, south-Central Asia, Afghanistan, and parts of Pakistan, so yeah.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Th cluster of bushes in the front is hiding a mass grave. I know because of several pixels in the top left of the mass. :3
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
I don't think the manpower for most places is too awful, especially Vinland, Argentina, Brazil, and Peru, where mass shifts in immigration could have easily given those numbers. Russia would still have a substantial population, just not on the scale seen here. 200-230 million would be much more realistic for what Russia is represented as.
So, for example, Russia could easily have 7,000 manpower in the pool with the size of it's army and meet the 230 million estimate. Which, well, still puts it well over that of German + Italy + Frenchies. Yeah, I'll say 7,000ish manpower in the bank is much more realistic for Russia. Everything else is close enough to what you'd expect in this timeline to be left alone, with a lot of European countries being pretty much dead on realistic.
There would be no economic, scientific, or theological explanation for why it would be. What you experience with Brazil as explained by NESers is Eurocentrism in relation to what people eat, when Brazilians have different diets. What you see develop in Brazil is a diet based around fruit and veggies that grow really well in those climates (okra, tomato, rice, beans, cassava, mango, etc.) With the introduction of vast cattle ranches later in OTL on the scale even the USA is losing ground to rapidly (5x greater than Argentina and just shy of US production), you see a large increase in beef products, such as dairy. In the meantime, pork, fish, and birds are the main dietary meats by far.
EDIT: Without the corruption, dictatorships, and low population of Brazil in OTL, the Brazil of CI should be, especially in the next two decades and forward, one of the great agricultural powers possible. In OTL, in 2013, Brazil still has vast swathes of arable land that hasn't been tapped yet.
So, for example, Russia could easily have 7,000 manpower in the pool with the size of it's army and meet the 230 million estimate. Which, well, still puts it well over that of German + Italy + Frenchies. Yeah, I'll say 7,000ish manpower in the bank is much more realistic for Russia. Everything else is close enough to what you'd expect in this timeline to be left alone, with a lot of European countries being pretty much dead on realistic.
Circuit said:
There would be no economic, scientific, or theological explanation for why it would be. What you experience with Brazil as explained by NESers is Eurocentrism in relation to what people eat, when Brazilians have different diets. What you see develop in Brazil is a diet based around fruit and veggies that grow really well in those climates (okra, tomato, rice, beans, cassava, mango, etc.) With the introduction of vast cattle ranches later in OTL on the scale even the USA is losing ground to rapidly (5x greater than Argentina and just shy of US production), you see a large increase in beef products, such as dairy. In the meantime, pork, fish, and birds are the main dietary meats by far.
EDIT: Without the corruption, dictatorships, and low population of Brazil in OTL, the Brazil of CI should be, especially in the next two decades and forward, one of the great agricultural powers possible. In OTL, in 2013, Brazil still has vast swathes of arable land that hasn't been tapped yet.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Maybe Russia has a large share of youth in their society (like in the arab world, some countries have 50% population between 18-45 IIRC) so the numbers to adjust by is smaller?
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
People living in third world conditions do tend to have an enormous number of children for no reason.
This could explain it all!
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,285
People living in third world conditions do tend to have an enormous number of children for no reason.
Twould also be a recipe for domestic unrest in Russia, providing part of an explanation for the observer.
TheLastJacobite
No Commies
That would halve my manpower.
Plus, I haven't had nearly the same amount of mass death OTL Russia had experiences up to this point (excluding the Great War). There was no Russian Civil War, no purges, no famines, no mass executions by the Communists. Despite what everyone thinks of Russia, I've been surprisingly peaceful and stable. Meanwhile, the Americas have had numerous wars, England's been fighting one war or another pretty much non stop for the past 2 decades, Germany and the French states had the Rhine-Rhone War, the various Burgundian fiascos, the Arabian War, etc, etc, etc. I still don't understand how the UK has been fighting the Fireworks War for almost a decade now, losing more people in the process than they did in the Great War, and hasn't lost so much as a stability point. Hell, the same party's been in charge the whole and keeps getting reelected!
That brings us to the Great War, where my casualties were 2-4 times higher than the RL Great War. But that holds true for everyone, so theoretically, that should have effected everyone's manpower pool equally. At the end of the war, Poland was two to three years away from having zero manpower (which annoys me when they cause so much trouble because there can't be that many Poles left). Since then, I've had a booming economy, a stable domestic environment (for Russia) and no major wars. These are all prime factors for a population boom, as experienced in RL in the 1920s. Plus, during this TL's Great Depression, my economy increased, not decreased, further fueling a large population. Therefore, based on the vast territories I hold, the classic factors for a population boom present, and the warfare and poverty present in the Western Hemisphere, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for my manpower pool to be on roughly the same level as the Americas combined.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
That would halve my manpower.
Plus, I haven't had nearly the same amount of mass death OTL Russia had experiences up to this point (excluding the Great War). There was no Russian Civil War, no purges, no famines, no mass executions by the Communists. Despite what everyone thinks of Russia, I've been surprisingly peaceful and stable. Meanwhile, the Americas have had numerous wars, England's been fighting one war or another pretty much non stop for the past 2 decades, Germany and the French states had the Rhine-Rhone War, the various Burgundian fiascos, the Arabian War, etc, etc, etc. I still don't understand how the UK has been fighting the Fireworks War for almost a decade now, losing more people in the process than they did in the Great War, and hasn't lost so much as a stability point. Hell, the same party's been in charge the whole and keeps getting reelected!
That brings us to the Great War, where my casualties were 2-4 times higher than the RL Great War. But that holds true for everyone, so theoretically, that should have effected everyone's manpower pool equally. At the end of the war, Poland was two to three years away from having zero manpower (which annoys me when they cause so much trouble because there can't be that many Poles left). Since then, I've had a booming economy, a stable domestic environment (for Russia) and no major wars. These are all prime factors for a population boom, as experienced in RL in the 1920s. Plus, during this TL's Great Depression, my economy increased, not decreased, further fueling a large population. Therefore, based on the vast territories I hold, the classic factors for a population boom present, and the warfare and poverty present in the Western Hemisphere, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for my manpower pool to be on roughly the same level as the Americas combined.
When the rich get richer, the serfs are still serfs.
Economic productivity is not a sign that your slave class are doing better, and just because it is doesn't mean they will have more kids. Generally, you don't keep having kids that would just starve or cause you to starve. If the Poles were depopulated mostly, that bodes even worse for population estimates. Russia was a divided and backwards grouping of states with little eastward expansion until the BT, so you wouldn't even have the population figures of the Russian Empire at the turn of the century. However, I do agree that Europeans have lost a lot more young men in this TL than in OTL. Rhine-Rhone War, Spanish Civil War, Great War, that one short but bloody war between FBC and Germany, colonial wars, etc. If anything it means that all of Europe should lose manpower, except maybe Scandinavia and some Eastern Europeans. On the contrary, South America has barely lost anything in conflicts and has been sucking up immigrants for a century. So, between huge wars and immigration, I would expect Europe to be a mess not unlike France was post WW1 OTL.
That said, North America is going to be in for some serious generational trouble after their wars, and probably Japan too.
EDIT: We could always have a mass famine in Russia.
Having the population of the Americas means you can't feed yourself. If you can't feed yourself, your export economy in agriculture collapses and you lose all that delicious economy you brag about. 
Lord of Elves
Suede-Denim Secret Police
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2009
- Messages
- 6,976
Regardless of whether it reflects any kind of historical reality or logic, Russia prior to the BT was apparently populous enough that many people in Novgorod elected to flee to Vinland to get away from the squalor, filth and disorder. But Novgorod was pretty unpleasant throughout CIEN, perhaps more than Muscovy.
Interestingly, very few of the wars Scandinavia has fought have ever involved anything approaching mobilization and total warfare (the one exception of course being the Great War), though arguably the Workers' Commonwealth is constantly prepared to mobilize at any given moment to defend against the Slavic Tyrant's hordes.
Nonetheless, Scandinavia, Denmark and potentially Britain seem like the only states in Europe(?) to have successfully escaped OTL WW1-esque manpower deficits, as Lucky pointed out. That is of course if anyone ever decides to enforce such manpower deficits.
Interestingly, very few of the wars Scandinavia has fought have ever involved anything approaching mobilization and total warfare (the one exception of course being the Great War), though arguably the Workers' Commonwealth is constantly prepared to mobilize at any given moment to defend against the Slavic Tyrant's hordes.
Nonetheless, Scandinavia, Denmark and potentially Britain seem like the only states in Europe(?) to have successfully escaped OTL WW1-esque manpower deficits, as Lucky pointed out. That is of course if anyone ever decides to enforce such manpower deficits.
Circuit
Writing Letters
That would halve my manpower.
Plus, I haven't had nearly the same amount of mass death OTL Russia had experiences up to this point (excluding the Great War). There was no Russian Civil War, no purges, no famines, no mass executions by the Communists. Despite what everyone thinks of Russia, I've been surprisingly peaceful and stable. Meanwhile, the Americas have had numerous wars, England's been fighting one war or another pretty much non stop for the past 2 decades, Germany and the French states had the Rhine-Rhone War, the various Burgundian fiascos, the Arabian War, etc, etc, etc. I still don't understand how the UK has been fighting the Fireworks War for almost a decade now, losing more people in the process than they did in the Great War, and hasn't lost so much as a stability point. Hell, the same party's been in charge the whole and keeps getting reelected!
Actually, the Fireworks War hasn't been very bloody for Britain, because Guangxi has been doing all the fighting. We just gave them the money to do it, and have yet to really begin to tap our own manpower reserves. I think last year was the largest troop surge I had for the entire Fireworks War: 20 brigades. It's easy to fight a war when it's not your guys dying.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Actually, the Fireworks War hasn't been very bloody for Britain, because Guangxi has been doing all the fighting. We just gave them the money to do it, and have yet to really begin to tap our own manpower reserves. I think last year was the largest troop surge I had for the entire Fireworks War: 20 brigades. It's easy to fight a war when it's not your guys dying.
Lolz? You've had well over half a million casualties.
TheLastJacobite
No Commies
Not the mention the near total destruction of your Air Force.
Shadowbound
Incorrugible
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2007
- Messages
- 4,079
Governments have fallen for far less.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Let them eat bayonet.
Lokki242
Emperor
Upon further investigation I have discovered where the problem lay. When I did manpower stats in 1920, I used a different equation than I have done for nations that emerged since then. The manpower for Russia is correct (and for Brazil, Britain, etc) but the equation luckymoose used to figure it out was flawed. It should also be pointed out that due to losses, the rough estimate luckymoose has and any I make would also be incorrect, simply because of the wounded/captured/maimed who would be still part of the population but out of calculations. As stated before, when we hit 1940 and make a changeover to a new thread, I'll be doing new immigration, stats, and revision. It won't be to the same scale as the 1920 changeover, as the goal is just some minor corrections and changes across the board.
Oh, and my exciting new weather/instability mechanics that I programed into ArcGIS will finally be making their appearance in 1940. I'm quite thrilled about this, as it'll cut down my updating time by about a half hour, and make things significantly more realistic in respects to warfare and instability.
Oh, and my exciting new weather/instability mechanics that I programed into ArcGIS will finally be making their appearance in 1940. I'm quite thrilled about this, as it'll cut down my updating time by about a half hour, and make things significantly more realistic in respects to warfare and instability.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
So how far off is Brazil's population? I thought 88 million was the low end of reasonable based on immigration/stability/democracy. Like, if I suddenly end up with 50 million people it won't make a lot of sense at all.
Actually, how does Russia have a booming economy? Like, there massive slave class, no capitalism, relatively few trade partners, and too little disposable income to sustain large scale industry, how does Russia have this massive economy bigger than industrial powerhouse Germany, Pacific trade power Japan, and colonial empire Britain?
TheLastJacobite
No Commies
We don't have a slave class! Just...lots of uneducated peasants. We do have capitalism, with major production of consumer goods (such as cars, tractors, some clothing) in Novgorod and Poland, which we sell throughout Europe. As mentioned earlier, Russia also sells grain and agricultural products to Europe as well, and is the primary exporter of foodstuffs to Japan. There is a lot of disposable income for the nobles, as well as our middle class (which is not very large, but still present). And Germany only united 20-30 years ago, and has fought a number of devastating wars. Most of Japan's resources (food, oil, rubber) are for internal use within the Empire and many of their American trading partners have been supplanted by Brazil and the US remnant states. As for the UK, they're colonies have been slipping away one by one for the past few decades.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
But my good sir, serfs are slaves! And you wouldn't sell your slave a car, lest he drive away and never return!
