Capto Iugulum Background Thread

[Circuit]

So who's turn is it to write the rebuttal to Jehoshua? I've already taken my turn and I think I did a fair job at it.

 

[m.t.cicero]

Guangxi's identity has been pretty clear to me...

I'll try not to rehash the points which have already been argued, but I feel a responsibility to give my two cents as Guangxi's player.

Many of the issues you've noted have in fact been addressed; with the recognition of Cantonese and Mandarin as official languages of government one of the biggest barriers separating the common Guangxiren from their rulers and officials has been removed. The comparison to South Africa is far from accurate now, and even when compared with Guangxi before the recent reforms OTL South Africa's barriers to social mobility for native commoners were far harder to penetrate; a black South African could not change his skin color, but a Guangxiren of some means could learn English in order to have a shot at a position in government or the civil service. My inital attempts to add a western aspect to the culture of Guangxi was ill-advised and naive at best, and perhaps unintentionally I was playing IC'ly as a heavily British-influenced government would play, ignorant of just how little I could really affect the culture of the nation even with expensive and heavy-handed policies.

And though traditional Chinese may have no love for the Dominion government, it is from my biased perspective the least of the evils of the three Chinas. The Unified Realm is ruled by a military clique and occupies the least prosperous and fertile areas of China. Its government is surely far more repressive than the Dominion, as in Guangxi there is in fact no "machine-gunning potential dissidents" or "brutal" repression of the opposition. The government of Guangxi has to the best of its ability responded to the will of the Guangxiren. It has shown itself to be willing to work with groups such as the Chinese Restoration Party, giving concessions such as the end of mandatory English education. The new government reforms also centralize power more in Chinese hands as well, since the Parliament was very much in British hands due to the pervasiveness of British business and lobbying. Now that the executive has more power, the government can act with less British influence than before.

Also, I doubt that there are more than a few people alive anymore who remember an independent China at this point. The fact that Guangxi has internal autonomy is far more than anyone living in south China has experienced before in their lifetimes. Especially since the end of the mandatory English program, the Chinese in Guangxi are free to live as Chinese without the government mandating a certain set of foreign traditions or morals. I would believe that most people are therefore content to some degree, so long as the government functions to serve them properly. This is a marked contrast to Japanese China, where the government mandates Japanese language instruction and calls all residents "Japanese." I believe that if the next 10 years are relatively peaceful and Guangxi can focus on development, leading to more widespread prosperity, its legitimacy as a government will be firmly established.

 

[Shadowbound]

And several generations of Manchu rule didn't do anything to make the Han more than tolerate them at the best of times, even when there was no other alternative.

 

[Circuit]

As EQ told me when I started out as the UK, "Empires are never quiet." People not liking you is one of the costs of imperialism, so I can't say I'm looking to be loved, but rather to be respected and at least be tolerated as not the worst possible thing and not worth the effort to remove. But should the Chinese forget who's the boss, I won't hesitate to remind them.

This is one reason why I get a kick out of Jehoshua's essays citing the United Kingdom as kowtowing to liberalism, given that British foreign policy has had no liberal delusions about human potential and generally operates in a realist framework, no matter which party is in charge.

 

[Luckymoose]

Brazil will gladly take over for the British should they grow tired.

 

[Circuit]

Brazil will gladly take over for the British should they grow tired.

You'd love it too much.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

Many of the issues you've noted have in fact been addressed; with the recognition of Cantonese and Mandarin as official languages of government one of the biggest barriers separating the common Guangxiren from their rulers and officials has been removed.

Yes, but given the difference in script and orthography between the alphabetic script of Guangxi and the ideographic script that is Classical Chinese, those are still half measures.

The comparison to South Africa is far from accurate now, and even when compared with Guangxi before the recent reforms OTL South Africa's barriers to social mobility for native commoners were far harder to penetrate; a black South African could not change his skin color, but a Guangxiren of some means could learn English in order to have a shot at a position in government or the civil service.

That's interesting. Are you saying that Guangxi is aiming towards universal suffrage, regardless of language proficiency?

And though traditional Chinese may have no love for the Dominion government, it is from my biased perspective the least of the evils of the three Chinas. The Unified Realm is ruled by a military clique and occupies the least prosperous and fertile areas of China. Its government is surely far more repressive than the Dominion, as in Guangxi there is in fact no "machine-gunning potential dissidents" or "brutal" repression of the opposition. The government of Guangxi has to the best of its ability responded to the will of the Guangxiren.

Right, but as above, "Guangxiren" is ten million anglophones in Xinjing, not the broad base of sinophones in the rest of the country.

Also, I doubt that there are more than a few people alive anymore who remember an independent China at this point.

Doesn't matter, not when the entirety of Chinese literature celebrates the unity and independence of China

Seriously, go read Romance of the Three Kingdoms sometime...

People not liking you is one of the costs of imperialism, so I can't say I'm looking to be loved, but rather to be respected and at least be tolerated as not the worst possible thing and not worth the effort to remove. But should the Chinese forget who's the boss, I won't hesitate to remind them.

Britain is a democracy. The love of your population, which is dying for no particular reason in a colonial war, is rather more important in this case...

 

[Circuit]

Britain is a democracy. The love of your population, which is dying for no particular reason in a colonial war, is rather more important in this case...

My comments were directed more at the foreign policy side of things; certainly on the home front the opinion of the people is important. But remember that the British public was clamoring for a response when the Red Army killed King Henry XIII in the Fireworks Massacre. No one kills the King and gets away with it. And once we were in, and with a shot of winning, might as well finish it out.

 

[Jehoshua]

...dude, seriously, check a map. Nanjing is right there, on the south bank of the Yangtze. Hangzhou, slightly more defensible and the Song dynasty's southern capital, is right there.

The fact that both of those are currently in the hands of the Red Army is immaterial.

Those are not traditional capitals of china, Nanjing was only capital for the Southern Tang and the Ming for very brief periods of time (before they moved to Beijing in the case of the Ming), and if you know your chinese history you would be able to recall that the best title the Southern Song could deign to give Hangzhou was "temporary capital", precisely because they had lost the sites of the "traditional" capitals of China.

Irrelevant.

I am explaining how political legitimacy is derived in traditional Chinese thought, based on Confucian norms, and how Guangxi has departed from it.

No you're just dismissing my argument rather than rebutting it.

Irrelevant. My argument revolves around Guangxi's domestic political legitimacy. Foreign acceptance has nothing to do with this.

Than why did you mention it? and your ignoring that my point was a rebuttal to your argument that Guangxi could only be legitimate if it restored the tributary state system, and a commonensical acknowledgement of the fact no power in China could ever do such a thing.

Finally, responding to your point about 'confusing' the Red Army with Guangxi's citizenry -- did Poles in Austrian-occupied Poland ever stop considering themselves Polish? Might it, perhaps, be in the interest of the Red Army to have built consensus with Guangxi's citizenry?

What foolishness, One is a Pole on the basis of ethnicity and culture, the red army is a political movement, not an ethnic group.

This is one reason why I get a kick out of Jehoshua's essays citing the United Kingdom as kowtowing to liberalism, given that British foreign policy has had no liberal delusions about human potential and generally operates in a realist framework, no matter which party is in charge.

Oh I know you've run your foreign policy along realist lines, when I refer to Britain kowtowing to liberalism I tend to be referring to its domestic political life, not its relations with those outside of its Empire. Although of course, like with regards to RL US foreign interventions one could argue in the case of British foreign affairs that there is a liberal motive hidden within the realist hard-headed actions of the state presuming one wanted to get conspiratorial

 

[ChiefDesigner]

Those are not traditional capitals of china

You want to know why I'm dismissing your arguments? It's because of this steady emission of falsehoods that it is, frankly, not worth my time to rebut. I was not aware it was possible for a poli sci major to be this ignorant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_capitals_of_China

Besides Ming and Tang, it was also the historical capital of Wu state; the four hundred years of the Southern Dynasties; plus the Taiping and Republic periods, in OTL. It is accepted as one of the traditional capitals. I could cite Zhuge Liang, but since you clearly have no idea who he is or why he's significant, why bother?

Than why did you mention it? and your ignoring that my point was a rebuttal to your argument that Guangxi could only be legitimate if it restored the tributary state system, and a commonensical acknowledgement of the fact no power in China could ever do such a thing.

Dude, bro, do you even comprehend arguments?

What foolishness, One is a Pole on the basis of ethnicity and culture, the red army is a political movement, not an ethnic group.

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Please proceed, Jehoshua! It sounds like you're saying that "Pole" is an ethnicity and culture, whereas "Chinese" is not! Also, it sounds like you're saying that the Red Army isn't motivated by ethnic nationalism! I would love to hear your uninformed thoughts on the matter!

 

[Shadowbound]

The argument Jehoshua should've made is that Nanjing, while an ancient capital, is too vulnerable to be a center of government given the batshit craziness that is Japanese China, while Hanzhou would not be considered a traditional ancient capital, as it was added to the list in the 1920s because of archaeological finds.

Further, he should've explained that the Red Army, while fuelled by ethnic nationalism, does not represent all nationalist sentiment. All dogs are four-legged animals, not all four-legged animals are dogs. All Red Armymen are nationalists, but not all nationalists are in the Red Army.

Of course, he's still wrong.

 

[Jehoshua]

You want to know why I'm dismissing your arguments? It's because of this steady emission of falsehoods that it is, frankly, not worth my time to rebut. I was not aware it was possible for a poli sci major to be this ignorant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_capitals_of_China

Besides Ming and Tang, it was also the historical capital of Wu state; the four hundred years of the Southern Dynasties; plus the Taiping and Republic periods, in OTL. It is accepted as one of the traditional capitals. I could cite Zhuge Liang, but since you clearly have no idea who he is or why he's significant, why bother?

It is quite amusing that you mention the Taiping and the Republic, since these regimes never occurred in the Capto Iugulum timeline and are thus not relevant to Nanjings status in Capto Iugulum, the consequence of European and Japanese conquests. This funnily enough obviously negates the political imperative of exalting Nanjing, as occurred under the Republic and later Communist regimes to a status it never had previously in support of their ideological claims to dominion. (edit: and of course Shadowbound is right that its not possible for Guangxi to set up stake there due to its unfortunate location on the border, which makes my point that the traditional capitals are unavailable to Guangxi valid even if you accept that in CI Nanjing is considered as a city with a great imperial legacy)

As to why I didn't consider it, it is because the Southern and Northern dynasties period were a period of division (the six dynasties being in this period), and not a unified Chinese state. Nanjing of the four lacks the prestige of seeing the long established rule of an Emperor who ruled all China. Changan, Luoyang and Beijing did sit at the apex of a united Empire for long periods of time, Nanjing did not and thus it has lesser prestige. Hangzhou as an aside, and as your linkages to the eminently unreliable tertiary source of Wikipedia notes, was only added into a latter day list of exalted historical capitals in 1930 IRL. Which of course indicates that what we are talking about here is OTL Chinese history and historiographical ideology, not political science or the realities of Capto Iugulum, the last being what we should be talking about.

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Please proceed, Jehoshua! It sounds like you're saying that "Pole" is an ethnicity and culture, whereas "Chinese" is not! Also, it sounds like you're saying that the Red Army isn't motivated by ethnic nationalism! I would love to hear your uninformed thoughts on the matter!

It sounds like your making the Red Army synonymous to being Chinese, which of course is absurd. The red army may be motivated by nationalism as per its origins in Japan, but Guangxi and the Ascendants are both Chinese states, and to presume that the Red Army has sole claim to the legacy of China is just a load of tripe.

Either way, your ad hominem statements merely reflect your lack of argument. Going after the person rather than the point is a typical tactic when someone has nothing relevant to say.

 

[Shadowbound]

The argument Chiefdesigner should make now is that, while Nanjing is not the capital of choice for a northern-based dynasty, the fact that all the dynasties that have used it have had their base of support in Southern China, just as Guangxi does, should mean that it fulfills its purpose, which makes sense seeing as Nanjing literally means "Southern Capital". The city literally exists so that a regime in the south can have a well-defined capital, that's why it was built in the first place, why it was razed by the Sui, and then rebuilt by the Tang, who used it in the 10th century.

Further, he should argue that the Ascendant Kingdom is in a poor region of the country without any major base of support, and that Guangxi, as we've previously established, manages to be both Manchu Barbarian and Foreign Devil at the same time, which is about as un-Chinese as you can get before you bring in ape-man hybrids.

 

[Jehoshua]

Ignoring of the course that under the six dynasties it was called Jiankang, that the Song held court in Hangzhou, that under the southern Tang it was called Jining, and that under the Qing it was named Jiangning (being renamed Nanjing by the Republic which held court there). Also it first became a capital under the Wu Kingdom (as Jianye) and remained one in the division of the Six Kingdoms period, with the sui eventually razing it before the city got rebuilt by the Southern Tang (one of the ten Kingdoms of southern china, and hardly a great Empire), who established themselves there for a mere 39 years before being wiped out.

 

[m.t.cicero]

Yes, but given the difference in script and orthography between the alphabetic script of Guangxi and the ideographic script that is Classical Chinese, those are still half measures.

all acts and decrees will be published in both written English and Chinese and announced in all three dialects.

That's interesting. Are you saying that Guangxi is aiming towards universal suffrage, regardless of language proficiency?

Equality under the law at least, yes. The significance of suffrage remains in flux at the moment.

Right, but as above, "Guangxiren" is ten million anglophones in Xinjing, not the broad base of sinophones in the rest of the country.

First, I haven't seen any implication that bilingualism isn't ubiquitous among the elites. Sure, it may be hard for the common Guangxiren farmer to relate to his countryman in Xinjing, but such divisions exist in all societies. I'm fairly sure that most, if not all Chinese Xinjingers can speak Canto and/or Mandarin in addition to English.

Doesn't matter, not when the entirety of Chinese literature celebrates the unity and independence of China

Seriously, go read Romance of the Three Kingdoms sometime...

I'll take you up on that sometime.

But that doesn't change the fact that Guangxi could reach a point of prosperity where nationalism is no longer burning quite as hot as it is now. If the median Guangxiren is living comfortably, thoughts of revolution will be far from his mind.

The argument Jehoshua should've made is that Nanjing, while an ancient capital, is too vulnerable to be a center of government given the batshit craziness that is Japanese China

Indeed, I had considered Nanjing, but its proximity to Japanese China is a dealbreaker. Guangzhou didn't seem like a good fit either, as it was a primarily commercial city, so it I couldn't let it be more than a temporary capital when I started. Xinjing was built as a capital for the Dominion, and would presumably be abandoned should independence and unification be achieved.

 

[Shadowbound]

And CD's counter-argument would be that you're completely missing the point. It's used by a regime with its power-base in the South as the southern capital. The Guangxi have their power base in the south. Proximity to invaders didn't really stop Beijing from being the capital time and time again, even though the Mongols and Manchu are right next door. The fact that Nanjing isn't being used as a capital, and an anglophone city is, establishes in the minds of the Chinese which direction the government is going for in terms of legitimacy.

And yes, the Qing had themselves a period in the 18th century where nationalism wasn't much of a problem, but it crumbled when Foreign Devils started showing up the government. The fact that they are now vassals of said foreign devils isn't going to work, at all.

 

[Jehoshua]

Beijing, unlike Nanjing, is not completely indefensible. Nanjing is just across the Yangtze from the Japanese (come the red army), whereas Beijing was much further away from the nomadic hordes (and wasn't face to face with an industrial and imperial competitor). Twas also one could note the capital of a united Chinese Empire rather than a state relegated to the south.

On foreign devils, it has been noted that a) no Chinese power including the red army is powerful enough to assert itself internationally, and b) the Qing could fairly easily cut the tether of formal association, even if Circuit says Britain would intervene (I would call his bluff if it was me on the basis of institutional British weakness and war weariness). Oh and you neglect the Qing did such things as force the ethnic Chinese to wear Queue's which conflicted with traditional Chinese customs regarding cutting hair and maintained the Manchu as an elite class. The "Southern Qing" in Guangxi presumably no longer require queues, or exalt Manchu (the language) or the Manchu people above the Chinese masses (noting of course that southern China has many languages and ethnic groups, unlike the north where the Han are overwhelmingly dominant)

 

[ChiefDesigner]

Beijing, unlike Nanjing, is not completely indefensible. Nanjing is just across the Yangtze from the Japanese (come the red army), whereas Beijing was much further away from the nomadic hordes (and wasn't face to face with an industrial and imperial competitor). Twas also one could note the capital of a united Chinese Empire rather than a state relegated to the south.

So?

You continue to miss the point. Beijing is legitimate. Nanjing is legitimate. Nowhere else is, strategic or military arguments aside.

Let me phrase it in an analogy you can understand. What would it have meant, symbolically, to the Federal government during the American civil war, had it moved its capital from Washington DC to Portland, Oregon?

Oh and you neglect the Qing did such things as force the ethnic Chinese to wear Queue's which conflicted with traditional Chinese customs regarding cutting hair and maintained the Manchu as an elite class. The "Southern Qing" in Guangxi presumably no longer require queues, or exalt Manchu (the language) or the Manchu people above the Chinese masses (noting of course that southern China has many languages and ethnic groups, unlike the north where the Han are overwhelmingly dominant)

Thank you for making my argument for me!

Qing:
* exalted the Manchu language
* set the Manchu minority above the Chinese population, denying them access to political power
* was obsessed with preserving Manchu culture

Guangxi:
* exalts the English language
* sets the anglophone minority above the Chinese population, denying them access to political power
* is obsessed with preserving English culture


Furthermore, south China is not nearly as ethnically diverse as you claim, certainly not in the parts that Guangxi is concerned with.

 

[Circuit]

...the Qing could fairly easily cut the tether of formal association, even if Circuit says Britain would intervene (I would call his bluff if it was me on the basis of institutional British weakness and war weariness).

I could imagine that a small-yet-powerful elite would not take that lying down, both because of economically profitable relations with Britain and because if it weren't for Britain they would have been butchered by the Red Army regime that resulted from the coup, and time after time Britain has come to the Guangxi regime's aid and saved them from near destruction at the hands of the Red Army (I gave them 300 EP last year and I don't even want to think about how much EP I've given Guangxi throughout this conflict; this is of course not counting putting troops into the Expeditionary Force). Such a move would be politically disastrous and likely result in the collapse of the government.

 

[Jehoshua]

... Let me phrase it in an analogy you can understand. What would it have meant, symbolically, to the Federal government during the American civil war, had it moved its capital from Washington DC to Portland, Oregon?

A false analogy, considering you are ignoring the fact China itself got divvied up, by your standard here no power would be legitimate in China. Furthermore its a false equivalence since the US has only ever had the one capital whereas in China the capital has moved multiple times, indeed an equivalent situation to the Guangxi one is the Southern Songs relocation to Hangzhou.

Thank you for making my argument for me!

Qing:
* exalted the Manchu language
* set the Manchu minority above the Chinese population, denying them access to political power
* was obsessed with preserving Manchu culture

Guangxi:
* exalts the English language
* sets the anglophone minority above the Chinese population, denying them access to political power
* is obsessed with preserving English culture

Cicero has already addressed your assertions on this matter, if you wish to insist on ad hoc strawmen that's your prerogative.

Furthermore, south China is not nearly as ethnically diverse as you claim, certainly not in the parts that Guangxi is concerned with.

Spoiler :

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@Circuit, Im not saying they would/should/could sever the tether immediately, and indeed it would be stupid to do it now.