Terrance888
Discord Reigns
I own a villa in Tuscany. Does that count?
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Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
Capto Iugulum
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,250
To: the Kingdom of Italy
From: The Papal States
Just as when Naples through its perfidious media showed itself as a supporter of Italian Nationalism, and betrayed its true intent of domination of the papal states and of the Church. I must now give this new Kingdom a similar request.
State by your honour and by treaty that you will never attack the sovereignty of nations, through means covert or overt, through invasion or through any illicit means whatsoever, and proclaim that you will not attack the Papal States and thus show yourself as yet another agent of Satan who seeks to enthrall the Church and enslave it to the state.
Should you fail this, then you shall face excommunication for attacking the sovereingty of the Church and showing yourself an enemy of God, and will face our stern resistance til you are either crushed utterly, or until the gates of Rome fall.
Make your intent known
~ Pope Leo XIV
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To: Occitania
CC: The World
From: The Papal States
Apparently the government of Occitania is ruled by incompetents and intellectual lightweights. That or it is so blinded by an animus against the Holy See that it would resort to all measures in attempts to attack us.
To provide our paternal correction to its wayward statements, we would like to re-clarify to the world that the term states is in fact a plural, in reference to all the states of the world. The term italian region is a specific reference to the Brittanic Alliances actions in providing technological support to Naples in the war in which we seek to end their intrusions on sovereignty.
On sovereignty, to correct Occitanian misconstructions (apparently erroneous ideology leads to erroneous definitions) the idea of sovereignty entails a states sole prerogative to control what happens within its sovereign territory, and the states role as posessing the sole legitimate right to the use of force. This latter right of sovereignty is why states can engage in war, although this is not speaking on the morality of any particular war in regards to any particular state, particularly those states who resort to such vulgar and barbaric means of combat as poison gas.
~ Pope Leo XIV.
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EDIT: @ Italy: His Holiness also implores an immediate cessation of hostilities between Milan and Italy and offers to serve as a mediator in the conflict.
From: The Papal States
Just as when Naples through its perfidious media showed itself as a supporter of Italian Nationalism, and betrayed its true intent of domination of the papal states and of the Church. I must now give this new Kingdom a similar request.
State by your honour and by treaty that you will never attack the sovereignty of nations, through means covert or overt, through invasion or through any illicit means whatsoever, and proclaim that you will not attack the Papal States and thus show yourself as yet another agent of Satan who seeks to enthrall the Church and enslave it to the state.
Should you fail this, then you shall face excommunication for attacking the sovereingty of the Church and showing yourself an enemy of God, and will face our stern resistance til you are either crushed utterly, or until the gates of Rome fall.
Make your intent known
~ Pope Leo XIV
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To: Occitania
CC: The World
From: The Papal States
Apparently the government of Occitania is ruled by incompetents and intellectual lightweights. That or it is so blinded by an animus against the Holy See that it would resort to all measures in attempts to attack us.
To provide our paternal correction to its wayward statements, we would like to re-clarify to the world that the term states is in fact a plural, in reference to all the states of the world. The term italian region is a specific reference to the Brittanic Alliances actions in providing technological support to Naples in the war in which we seek to end their intrusions on sovereignty.
On sovereignty, to correct Occitanian misconstructions (apparently erroneous ideology leads to erroneous definitions) the idea of sovereignty entails a states sole prerogative to control what happens within its sovereign territory, and the states role as posessing the sole legitimate right to the use of force. This latter right of sovereignty is why states can engage in war, although this is not speaking on the morality of any particular war in regards to any particular state, particularly those states who resort to such vulgar and barbaric means of combat as poison gas.
~ Pope Leo XIV.
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EDIT: @ Italy: His Holiness also implores an immediate cessation of hostilities between Milan and Italy and offers to serve as a mediator in the conflict.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
We neither confirm nor deny this, and whatever the result maybe is completely inconsequential. Ad hominem attacks by the Pope does not bode well for him.
Or maybe we just don't tolerate blatant lies, by any party.
Re-clarification accepted, especially since it merely digs you into a deeper hole. I would note that "Sovereignty of States" in itself as a term is not plural, but a singular referring to all the rights and responsibilities sovereignty entails, but that matters not since your definition hurts you more than the "actual" one.
Such as prerogative, I would imagine, over the freedom of speech and the establishment of printing presses within its sovereign territory?
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Following your new definition, therefore the only true way to reconstitute the legal term "sovereignty of states" becomes merely a phrase "of the sovereignty-of various states". What this truly means is instead of talking about the rights of a single state, as when rightfully used, you are thinking of this as the rights of various states working together (or you are talking about the sovereignty of all the states in the world working together, but that's mere insanity. United Nations? Who would have thought of that?). Now for what purpose would they work together? Perhaps to maintain the sovereignty of the individual state within the "sovereignty of states"?
And who is intruding on the sovereignty of Naples? Who is demanding that events within another states' sovereignty be affected? Who declared war and violated sovereignty of the State of Naples first? Who has violated the sovereignty of the states of Italy for at least 60 years, and by all means and rights probably much more? We all know the answer, so I will abstain from providing my own and let these questions stew.
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,250
precisely, thus why the dissemination of Neapolitan works to a broader audience, namely in Papal territory, was so intolerable to the Holy See. Although in truth, war was only entered into because of the indications the government support of italian nationalist media led too, namely that Naples was intending the forceful unification of Italy under its domination and supported dissidents in Papal Territory in contravention of our sovereign rights.
This last point is of course now an open fact, as Naples called out on its hidden intentions now openly shows its hand. This being most fully being revealed in its recent correspondence to the new "Kingdom of Italy".
Im afraid the attack is hardly ad hominem when the definition used haas been the constant definition of sovereignty since the notion itself was first defined in the treaty of Westphalia all those centuries ago. Thus incidentally re-clarification, is not meant to mean that the Papal States is giving some new interpretation of sovereignty, but to ensure that the clarification of Westphalia and international law is regiven to the Occitanian government which is empirically ignorant of it.
Indeed the term together is a singular as you say. The notification that the word states refers to all states and not to one state or another (or to some collective of states). This was to counter Occitanias earlier statements on the matter that werre erroneous and grossly misleading and/or ignorant. (check post #1219 )
Regardless the rest of Occitanias statements is not worth a reply, namely because they betray mindlessness and lack of understanding of the legitimate cases for war, and because they insult teh Papal States and misconstrue the very idea of sovereignty by placing it onto an ideological construct of contemporaneous times that does not exist. Furthermore by denying the legitimate and ancient rights of the papal states to sovereignty over its lands, from thousands of years ago to the present day, Occitania reveals that it has a deliberate agenda against us, and that as such all reasoned response is ultimately an endeavour in futility against an opponent already confirmed in its bias and in its malice.
erez87
Lord of Random
from the Italian Republic
to the Papal States:
First we wish to inform you for a second time, we are not a kingdom. We are a free republic, one where each man is equal and is allowed to vote for his government. It is true, our Constitution has not been formalized yet to decide how this republic will function, but it remains a republic, a beacon of freedom, and not a kingdom, lands rule by a single ruler.
And as I spoke before. We wish not to war, but to unify, and grant the Italian people freedom. Are you so cruel to control your population against their will? What sort of a spiritual man are you if you deny the rights of men? You can excommunicate me, and the government, and the entire nation, and even all Italians, but how much good will that grant you?
We will promise you this. The Papal States will not be attacked by the republic so long as if your population rebels and joins us anyway, you will not oppose them. Agreed?
to the Papal States:
First we wish to inform you for a second time, we are not a kingdom. We are a free republic, one where each man is equal and is allowed to vote for his government. It is true, our Constitution has not been formalized yet to decide how this republic will function, but it remains a republic, a beacon of freedom, and not a kingdom, lands rule by a single ruler.
And as I spoke before. We wish not to war, but to unify, and grant the Italian people freedom. Are you so cruel to control your population against their will? What sort of a spiritual man are you if you deny the rights of men? You can excommunicate me, and the government, and the entire nation, and even all Italians, but how much good will that grant you?
We will promise you this. The Papal States will not be attacked by the republic so long as if your population rebels and joins us anyway, you will not oppose them. Agreed?
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,250
To: The Italian Republic
From: Papal States
You deal is unnacceptable in that it would deny the papal states its legitimate rights to the use of force to preserve its territorial integrity.
As to your statements regarding the temporal jurisdiction of the Church. The states of the Church are absolutely necessary in ensuring the Church's sovereignty from states, and from any who would bring the Holy See and the Church of God under their control.
This necessity is for the common good of all men, and trumps some ideological "right" (as distinct from natural rights ordained by God) to the creation of a secular italian state. For should the Church come under a secular government, its independent voice to stand for truth and right virtue in the world will become oppressed, and there will be no one to challenge mankinds descent into the dictatorship of relativism and into error. The Church's ability to lead people to salvation will be destroyed and all mankind will suffer in darkness as a result, both in this life and in the next.
We cannot permit the sovereignty of the Church to be subjugated to a secular state
~ Pope Leo XIV
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
But earlier you said it was plural. The Pope made a mistake? Oh my.
And you wish to discuss Westphalian sovereignty?
1) It is clear by the rates of desertions that the Papal States is not acting in the best intersest of its people.
In addition, part 1 assumes further rights.
- territorial integrity
- border inviolability
- supremacy of the state (rather than the Church)
- sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority within its jurisdiction
2) In all ways, for over 60 years you considered yourself legally superior to other Italian states.
3) You intervened in the internal affairs of Naples; Naples did not intervene in YOUR internal affairs. You are free to ban books printed by the this "Italian National Press" for your own territory.
erez87
Lord of Random
Will you kill all of your population only to remain in power?
While I see the reasoning for the existence of a Papal States, I do not see the need of that state to be a dictatorship that would see the death of its entire population before it would allow its people the right of freedom.
We were all made in god's image, and for that all men are equal. While the Pope is our connection to the heavens, here on the Earth every man has the right to be free, as ordained by god when he created us as equals.
If you do not accept the rights of your own population, than we cannot promise you anything. We will not let Italians die under the dictatorship of anyone, not even the holy father.
SamSniped
DJ Goodboye
OOC: @EQ-I don't mind about the bank, and thanks for clarifying 
@erez: Italian Republic: same idea as the HRE in SKNES?
@erez: Italian Republic: same idea as the HRE in SKNES?
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
If the pope wish not to respond, I would like to finish to say that this verbal sparring is merely that. Changing your definitions is not in the good taste of international discussion, and leaving while pretending to be on the high ground will reveal nothing but your fear. You have nothing to fear for me, for I am but a mere voice among thousands until you singled me out.
If you would not participate and listen to me, that is acceptable. Go to your people, and listen to what they say. Listen to them talk about oppression, ruthlessness, death, hopelessness and other such things.
Go, listen.
And realize that they are talking about you.
OOC: I have just gone through and compiled the stats of each side. I have excluded quality statistics since these are high variable depending on doctrine, ship quality and so on. I have divided the Economy between Home Regions, Colonies and Occupied Territories. Some of the numbers here may be off slightly since this was done manually over a few hours but overall they should tell the tale of how things stand.
Continental Powers
Nations: Denmark, Franco-Burgundian Confedation, Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Scandinavia, Spain, Persia, Turkey
Economic Points(Home Regions): 117 (+1977 EP)
Economic Points(Colonies): (+398 EP)
Economic Points(Occupied Territories): (+12 EP)
Army: 654 Conscript Brigades, 1496 Infantry Brigades, 195 Cavalry Brigades, 276 Artillery Brigade, 3 Legion Hispania Brigades
Navy: 10 Early Submarines, 22 Nordenfelt-class Submarines, 99 Early Destroyers, 16 Numancia-class Destroyers, 3 Dragoa-class Destroyers, 13 Romanos-class Destroyers, 38 Early Light Cruisers, 18 Early Heavy Cruiser, 12 Eendracht-class Heavy Cruisers, 4 Joao-class Heavy Cruisers, 10 Java-class Battleships, 5 Conquistador-class Battleships, 7 Christine-class Battleship, 10 Hercules-class Battleships
Allied Powers
Nations: Brandenburg, Hungary, Occitania, Poland, Serbia, United Kingdom, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Mayan Republic, New Spain, Paraguay, Peru, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela, Arabian Empire, Georgia, Kurdistan, Japan
Economic Points(Home Regions): 357 (+2821 EP)
Economic Points(Colonies): (+279 EP)
Economic Points(Occupied Territories): (+100 EP)
Army: 188 Conscript Brigades, 2058 Infantry Brigades, 253 Cavalry Brigades, 486 Artillery Brigades, 1 Kommando Brigade, 1 Királyi Gárda Brigade, 2 Wojownicy Zimowe Brigades, 2 New Spanish Militia Brigades, 1 Rangers Brigade, 1 Kagemusha Brigade
Navy: 46 Early Submarines, 115 Early Destroyers, 42 Zygmunt-class Destroyers, 41 Trovão-class Destroyers, 46 Early Light Cruisers, 7 Chościsko-class Light Cruisers, 3 Chościsko-class Light Cruisers, 24 Early Heavy Cruiser, 5 Ziemowit-class Heavy Cruisers, 3 Joao-class Heavy Cruisers, 8 Lioness-class Battlecruisers, 7 Olympus-class Battleship, 2 Summit-class Battleships, 7 Resiliência-class Battleship, 3 Hercules-class Battleships, 8 Virginia-class Battleships, 9 Yamato-class Battleships
Not Included: Cuba, Ecuador(Unsure if they are involved or not as I only included American Nations with Conscripts, miltary involvement last year or who are in the Allied Social Group)
EQ's previous stats from last year below.
Continental Powers
Nations: Denmark, Franco-Burgundian Confedation, Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Scandinavia, Spain, Persia, Turkey
Economic Points(Home Regions): 117 (+1977 EP)
Economic Points(Colonies): (+398 EP)
Economic Points(Occupied Territories): (+12 EP)
Army: 654 Conscript Brigades, 1496 Infantry Brigades, 195 Cavalry Brigades, 276 Artillery Brigade, 3 Legion Hispania Brigades
Navy: 10 Early Submarines, 22 Nordenfelt-class Submarines, 99 Early Destroyers, 16 Numancia-class Destroyers, 3 Dragoa-class Destroyers, 13 Romanos-class Destroyers, 38 Early Light Cruisers, 18 Early Heavy Cruiser, 12 Eendracht-class Heavy Cruisers, 4 Joao-class Heavy Cruisers, 10 Java-class Battleships, 5 Conquistador-class Battleships, 7 Christine-class Battleship, 10 Hercules-class Battleships
Allied Powers
Nations: Brandenburg, Hungary, Occitania, Poland, Serbia, United Kingdom, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Mayan Republic, New Spain, Paraguay, Peru, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela, Arabian Empire, Georgia, Kurdistan, Japan
Economic Points(Home Regions): 357 (+2821 EP)
Economic Points(Colonies): (+279 EP)
Economic Points(Occupied Territories): (+100 EP)
Army: 188 Conscript Brigades, 2058 Infantry Brigades, 253 Cavalry Brigades, 486 Artillery Brigades, 1 Kommando Brigade, 1 Királyi Gárda Brigade, 2 Wojownicy Zimowe Brigades, 2 New Spanish Militia Brigades, 1 Rangers Brigade, 1 Kagemusha Brigade
Navy: 46 Early Submarines, 115 Early Destroyers, 42 Zygmunt-class Destroyers, 41 Trovão-class Destroyers, 46 Early Light Cruisers, 7 Chościsko-class Light Cruisers, 3 Chościsko-class Light Cruisers, 24 Early Heavy Cruiser, 5 Ziemowit-class Heavy Cruisers, 3 Joao-class Heavy Cruisers, 8 Lioness-class Battlecruisers, 7 Olympus-class Battleship, 2 Summit-class Battleships, 7 Resiliência-class Battleship, 3 Hercules-class Battleships, 8 Virginia-class Battleships, 9 Yamato-class Battleships
Not Included: Cuba, Ecuador(Unsure if they are involved or not as I only included American Nations with Conscripts, miltary involvement last year or who are in the Allied Social Group)
EQ's previous stats from last year below.
Spoiler :
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,250
ooc: Whole thing spoilered for the convenience of passive observors and non-involved parties. Please note that there is a portion out of context within the spoiler where our Occitanian overlord strays into theoretical territory that is irrelevant to the time period, this is italicised.
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IC:
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IC:
Spoiler :
PS: I study political theory and international relations academically. So Terrance it is not out of some shack in the woods Im saying what Im saying, but rather I am presenting normative principles in defence of the Papal States position.
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@ Italy (erez)
Spoiler :
@ Terrance in regards to second statement
Spoiler :
erez87
Lord of Random
to Papal States:
from Italian Republic
When one man has all the power in the state, that is a dictatorship. When the population no longer wish for his control, yet he forces them to be controlled, that is a dictatorship.
We will have no deals unless you accept that you are not the sole ruler of your state or of Italy. The people are the rulers.
from Italian Republic
When one man has all the power in the state, that is a dictatorship. When the population no longer wish for his control, yet he forces them to be controlled, that is a dictatorship.
We will have no deals unless you accept that you are not the sole ruler of your state or of Italy. The people are the rulers.
To: The Italian Republic
From: Naples
We have made moves toward a democracy as shown with our opening of the press and a promise to Sicily that we would eventually. Our movement has been slowed due to the war and once we have peace time we will gladly move towards a democracy to give the power to the Italian people that rightfully deserve it as we have been advocating over the last year. We have pledged ourselves to supporting the Italian people and pushing for them to have rights, we did this all when everyone was targeting us and trying to shut us up for it. While you cowered in your little corner and waited for the war to start, we did not back down from our stance on Italian freedoms and unification. Naples is the true leaders of Italy and we seek to empower the Italian people and give them the rights they deserve and want! So to all the Italian people, we are still supporting you completely and wish to see you all free and with the rights you deserve, join Naples and let us free every Italian from the oppression they face. Once the Papal States are dealt with we will do all we can to free Venice from Austria and hope we will have the backing of the Italians while doing so.
From: Naples
We have made moves toward a democracy as shown with our opening of the press and a promise to Sicily that we would eventually. Our movement has been slowed due to the war and once we have peace time we will gladly move towards a democracy to give the power to the Italian people that rightfully deserve it as we have been advocating over the last year. We have pledged ourselves to supporting the Italian people and pushing for them to have rights, we did this all when everyone was targeting us and trying to shut us up for it. While you cowered in your little corner and waited for the war to start, we did not back down from our stance on Italian freedoms and unification. Naples is the true leaders of Italy and we seek to empower the Italian people and give them the rights they deserve and want! So to all the Italian people, we are still supporting you completely and wish to see you all free and with the rights you deserve, join Naples and let us free every Italian from the oppression they face. Once the Papal States are dealt with we will do all we can to free Venice from Austria and hope we will have the backing of the Italians while doing so.
To: The Papal States
From: The United Kingdom
First, there is no situation in Ireland. Whatever quarrels the Irish people have will be settled peaceably and with equanimity following the conclusion of this terrible war.
Second, you have yet to experience true intervention in the Italian affairs by the British government or any of her allies. If that is something you would like to see, however, by all means continue to antagonize us.
From: The United Kingdom
First, there is no situation in Ireland. Whatever quarrels the Irish people have will be settled peaceably and with equanimity following the conclusion of this terrible war.
Second, you have yet to experience true intervention in the Italian affairs by the British government or any of her allies. If that is something you would like to see, however, by all means continue to antagonize us.
erez87
Lord of Random
No one is the true leader of Italy. Italy will be a Republic, where the people choose a leader freely, and not one where the leader declares himself over the lands.
If you truly are meaning to become a democracy, than become one. You are nothing more than another absolute ruler who wish to rule Italy for himself.
May I remind you, that we of the Nationalistic Move in the Genoan University have been nationalistic before the Pope declared war on us. Not only after.
To: Italian Republic
From: Naples
We cannot simple shift government styles during a war, when it has finished we will do so. True the university had nationalistic views and movements prior to the way, yet you shut it down. Naples reopened it and when the Pope told us to shut it down we refused, standing up for the rights of the people of Italy and telling the Pope and the rest of the Italian nations that the Italians deserved more freedoms. We did not shy away or cower when Sardinia, Austria and the Papal States threatened war, we did not back out when our so called allies in Milan backed out of their agreements with us. No we continued to push for the rights of Italians especially those in Venice who have been oppressed by the Austrians for far to long.
From: Naples
We cannot simple shift government styles during a war, when it has finished we will do so. True the university had nationalistic views and movements prior to the way, yet you shut it down. Naples reopened it and when the Pope told us to shut it down we refused, standing up for the rights of the people of Italy and telling the Pope and the rest of the Italian nations that the Italians deserved more freedoms. We did not shy away or cower when Sardinia, Austria and the Papal States threatened war, we did not back out when our so called allies in Milan backed out of their agreements with us. No we continued to push for the rights of Italians especially those in Venice who have been oppressed by the Austrians for far to long.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
TO: New Zealand Portuguese Population
FROM: Brazil
As fellow Portuguese speakers, and as enemies of the Lisbon government, Brazil offers protection to the New Zealand people if they choose to seek independence as the Cubans did from the Spanish. Your revolution and independence will guarantee the islands never see warfare.
FROM: Brazil
As fellow Portuguese speakers, and as enemies of the Lisbon government, Brazil offers protection to the New Zealand people if they choose to seek independence as the Cubans did from the Spanish. Your revolution and independence will guarantee the islands never see warfare.
Circuit
Writing Letters
To: Italian Republic, Kingdom of Naples
From: United States of America
We are disappointed in your statement regarding the Kingdom of Naples. All you have proved is that you care for your own glory and power rather than the Italian people. The Kingdom of Naples has already expressed a desire to transition to the government you desire, and is stalled simply because of a war (not of their choice). To suggest a transition be made immediately and haphazardly, which would certainly danger the Neapolitan war effort with the shifting chain of command and the resulting confusion and ultimately doom the Italian cause, shows the idealism and lack of good sense of the Italian Republic. You have shown you are unfit to lead the revolution for the Italian people. You dropped our suggestion, which is very disappointing, and you are contributing to the broken state of Italy.
We therefore recant our earlier statements, take the suggestion of the Austrian-Italian intellectuals, and recognize the Kingdom of Naples as the true successor of the Italian nation. The Republic of Italy is simply another feuding Italian state using Italian nationalism to further its own goals. We call upon our allies to do the same.
Furthermore, we do not recognize your government as legitimate. Unless you reverse your earlier statements, we have nothing more to say to you.
From: United States of America
We are disappointed in your statement regarding the Kingdom of Naples. All you have proved is that you care for your own glory and power rather than the Italian people. The Kingdom of Naples has already expressed a desire to transition to the government you desire, and is stalled simply because of a war (not of their choice). To suggest a transition be made immediately and haphazardly, which would certainly danger the Neapolitan war effort with the shifting chain of command and the resulting confusion and ultimately doom the Italian cause, shows the idealism and lack of good sense of the Italian Republic. You have shown you are unfit to lead the revolution for the Italian people. You dropped our suggestion, which is very disappointing, and you are contributing to the broken state of Italy.
We therefore recant our earlier statements, take the suggestion of the Austrian-Italian intellectuals, and recognize the Kingdom of Naples as the true successor of the Italian nation. The Republic of Italy is simply another feuding Italian state using Italian nationalism to further its own goals. We call upon our allies to do the same.
Furthermore, we do not recognize your government as legitimate. Unless you reverse your earlier statements, we have nothing more to say to you.
