Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
I'm pretty sure the connections work from the very beginning! Or at least some ancient tech, not medieval like for other civs.
Carthage
- Thread starter Funak
- Start date
I'm pretty sure the connections work from the very beginning! Or at least some ancient tech, not medieval like for other civs.
I've been (trying to) make some Carthage games happen over the last few days and while their overall theme seems good, the actual benefits feel incredibly weak.
Instant naval city connections right at the start are neat but early expansion is hampered the same way still like for any other early expanding civ: happiness is going to tank hard if you don't rush mines/plantations (and chopping)/boats, whatever you have need for, and the lack of ocean embarkment means you can't try searching for better things overseas depending on your starting position. More often than not I end up with simply not enough different luxuries to make up for the increased unhappiness either way. And with other civs in close vicinity, it just gets worse, having to race for the good spots with the luxuries. Which brings me to...
...the Quins. You'd think these were a lot stronger than they are, but they fall into the same category as all pre-Corvette melee ships: they suck at everything that's not taking out (ranged) barb ships and coastal exploration. Taking cities, even unwalled ones, is a chore as soon as there's as much as a warrior stationed in it, requiring 3+ of them to take one in any meaningful time, assuming you have a city close enough that you can send the damaged ones back to for healing before the city you're trying to take has healed back to full. And if that is the case this early in the game, you probably don't have the economy yet to support that many ships + some defensive troops back home, which you will need since nobody else will even HAVE any ships at that point.
Now the problem is that I have essentially no ideas what to do about any of this. As I said, the theme itself is very strong with Carthage and not having to build harbors is always a plus. But the whole package just feels really weak mechanically. Someone else suggested making the quin ranged, which I feel would increase its usefulness massively as this special, early game coastal menace. The Cothon is neat and, again, very thematic, but doesn't feel very "special" compared to... really, most of the other buildings or even improvements. It's not BAD, at least. The other half of the UA is once again very fitting but I have a hard time judging the usefulness of instant gold boosts compared to gold per turn, so I'll not comment more on it.
Instant naval city connections right at the start are neat but early expansion is hampered the same way still like for any other early expanding civ: happiness is going to tank hard if you don't rush mines/plantations (and chopping)/boats, whatever you have need for, and the lack of ocean embarkment means you can't try searching for better things overseas depending on your starting position. More often than not I end up with simply not enough different luxuries to make up for the increased unhappiness either way. And with other civs in close vicinity, it just gets worse, having to race for the good spots with the luxuries. Which brings me to...
...the Quins. You'd think these were a lot stronger than they are, but they fall into the same category as all pre-Corvette melee ships: they suck at everything that's not taking out (ranged) barb ships and coastal exploration. Taking cities, even unwalled ones, is a chore as soon as there's as much as a warrior stationed in it, requiring 3+ of them to take one in any meaningful time, assuming you have a city close enough that you can send the damaged ones back to for healing before the city you're trying to take has healed back to full. And if that is the case this early in the game, you probably don't have the economy yet to support that many ships + some defensive troops back home, which you will need since nobody else will even HAVE any ships at that point.
Now the problem is that I have essentially no ideas what to do about any of this. As I said, the theme itself is very strong with Carthage and not having to build harbors is always a plus. But the whole package just feels really weak mechanically. Someone else suggested making the quin ranged, which I feel would increase its usefulness massively as this special, early game coastal menace. The Cothon is neat and, again, very thematic, but doesn't feel very "special" compared to... really, most of the other buildings or even improvements. It's not BAD, at least. The other half of the UA is once again very fitting but I have a hard time judging the usefulness of instant gold boosts compared to gold per turn, so I'll not comment more on it.
When you found a coastal city, you get a notification on following turn that you have established a city connection. You also get the money from the city connection. Still
Spoiler :
Edit: I can't see the picture without opening it to a new tab. Hopefully it works better for others. Anyway, there is a picture of Utique having unhappiness from isolation. I've got all T1 techs and fishing.
Carthage is very strong if you play to its strengths. Without giving too much away I suggest thinking about the instant connections you get from the harbor and look at the Pantheon and Social policies that benefit from connections. When you couple that with the trade routes and the bonus money you get from founding cities, you can get a heck of a start out of the gate and never need to look back.
Der_Zorn_gottes
King
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Messages
- 771
It was very weird. I definitely had a long time where my cities weren`t connected - I noticed the unhappiness from isolation.
When I continued playing the other day, the connections were there.
When I continued playing the other day, the connections were there.
When you found a coastal city, you get a notification on following turn that you have established a city connection. You also get the money from the city connection. StillSpoiler :
Edit: I can't see the picture without opening it to a new tab. Hopefully it works better for others. Anyway, there is a picture of Utique having unhappiness from isolation. I've got all T1 techs and fishing.
Probably a broken city connection because of barbs (blockading).
G
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
I just had a great idea! 
Why don't we give them guaranteed ivory near their capital --> Unlocking their iconic War Elephants!?!?
It's a historically fitting bonus, one that helps with the early happiness cap and it helps on non-water maps!
Sorry if I'm too excited, but I find it just perfect!
We could even give their elephants the altitude training promotion (double movement and combat bonus on hills)
So, to sum the Carthage situation up:
Current problems with Carthage:
Things Carthage is known for (* means not yet represented):
Suggestions (as an expansion of what I suggested earlier, see spoiler):
Why don't we give them guaranteed ivory near their capital --> Unlocking their iconic War Elephants!?!?
It's a historically fitting bonus, one that helps with the early happiness cap and it helps on non-water maps!
Sorry if I'm too excited, but I find it just perfect!
We could even give their elephants the altitude training promotion (double movement and combat bonus on hills)
So, to sum the Carthage situation up:
Current problems with Carthage:
- Is very weak when not starting on coast / on maps with few water tiles
- Choosing water-related techs early is a gamble due to invisible fish
- Choosing water-related techs early delays other essential techs
- No happiness boost - doesn't profit enough from increased expansion potential
- The civ is focused on the early game and on the expansion phase
- Building a navy takes away resources needed to build land units.
- Their empire is hard to defend (often spread out in a line, may be attacked by land and sea)
Things Carthage is known for (* means not yet represented):
- A powerful navy (Quinqueremes)
- Sea trade
- Naval/coastal expansion
- Elaborate harbors (Cothons)
- War elephants *
- Mercenaries *
- Crossing the Alps *
- Being a republic (like Rome before Caesar) *
Suggestions (as an expansion of what I suggested earlier, see spoiler):
Spoiler :
- Revealing fish from the start would take away the gamble from coastal settling & naval techs
- Getting a free ship (through fishing tech) would make it easier & more natural to transition from early land-based gameplay towards naval gameplay
- Free ivory near your capital (unlocking war elephants) would be very thematic, help with early happiness, and make the civ more viable on land-based maps!
- If you start without water access, you could get a free War Elephant instead of the free ship.
- An increasing number of trade routes for the Great Cothon (every second era to a max of 5 in the information era) would help Carthage to stay relevant later on (Plus it's an active, prominently visible and versatile bonus).
- Making the Quin ranged would help with city defense and general military needs. Mixed Trireme/Quinquereme navies would also be very fitting historically. I would further suggest making the Quin simply a stronger Dromon without special promotion (no promo inheritance) while giving all melee ships the recon promotion through the UA. This is because the recon promo is a great idea, but the galleass/frigate line is a bad upgrade for a recon ship (the first cannot enter ocean, the second needs a resource). Note that naval exploration is probably over by midgame, making this NOT overpowered.
Guynemer
King
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2002
- Messages
- 880
The problem with using war elephants and crossing the Alps to represent Carthage is that their elephants died when trying to cross the alps, as did a significant portion of Hannibal's more conventional forces.
I'm not sure civs should be represented by things they, generally, failed at.
I'm not sure civs should be represented by things they, generally, failed at.
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
@Guynemer:
The promo for elephants was mostly a joke
Then again, the mountain-crossing was a feat of epic ballsiness, worthy of being remembered 2300 years. Let's not focus too much on historical details
Back on topic, I had another nice idea.
You know what else represents naval conquest/expansion/trade and helps with unhappiness?
Great admirals!
I suggest giving my previously advertised ranged Quinqueremes extra great admiral generation.
I stumbled upon this idea when I thought about an alternative inheritable promotion for ranged Quinqueremes (because recon doesn't fit well on ranged ship as inherited promotion - they mostly aren't used this way).
Extra great admirals would help naval warfare as well as being exchangeable for extra happiness and extra trade goods, a very fitting theme for Carthage.
Ranged Quins should generate quite a bit of extra experience/great admiral points compared to melee ships (because they can help defend cities and attack coastal enemies/barbarians), resulting in a very realistic chance to get a great admiral early.
Both the ranged Quin and the extra admirals should result in much smoother naval expansion (more happiness from extra luxuries, better settler protection from ranged ships,...). Other suggestions like earlier visibility of fish should do the rest.
What do you think about all this?
The promo for elephants was mostly a joke
Then again, the mountain-crossing was a feat of epic ballsiness, worthy of being remembered 2300 years. Let's not focus too much on historical details
Back on topic, I had another nice idea.
You know what else represents naval conquest/expansion/trade and helps with unhappiness?
Great admirals!
I suggest giving my previously advertised ranged Quinqueremes extra great admiral generation.
I stumbled upon this idea when I thought about an alternative inheritable promotion for ranged Quinqueremes (because recon doesn't fit well on ranged ship as inherited promotion - they mostly aren't used this way).
Extra great admirals would help naval warfare as well as being exchangeable for extra happiness and extra trade goods, a very fitting theme for Carthage.
Ranged Quins should generate quite a bit of extra experience/great admiral points compared to melee ships (because they can help defend cities and attack coastal enemies/barbarians), resulting in a very realistic chance to get a great admiral early.
Both the ranged Quin and the extra admirals should result in much smoother naval expansion (more happiness from extra luxuries, better settler protection from ranged ships,...). Other suggestions like earlier visibility of fish should do the rest.
What do you think about all this?
Legen
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2015
- Messages
- 1,444
I think Carthage shines at Industrial age, rather than at the Ancient/Classical, despite its early advantages. The harbor + gold + trade route focus is most relevant once you have access to:
- Naval units able to cross the ocean (force projection)
- The Industry social policies (better use of gold and trade routes, including internal ones)
- The Big Ben wonder
- Railroad technology
Harbors aren't just about city connection and profitable trade routes, they are also a boost to your naval production and railroad infrastructure. The first matters when you want to have military presence anywhere on the globe, the second matters for the +25%
in your cities while spending less gold (and time) updating your roads into railroads.
Carthage is about having a better infrastructure, more gold/hammer potential than most civilizations, while supporting a wide gameplay. Trade routes are both for gold and food/hammers, and having lots of routes help when your empire expands. Having two extra routes in a national Wonder (requiring 20 less population) is essentially a guaranteed Colossus + Petra. As long as you make the most of it, you should have an amazing infrastructure/finance for your empire.
If there's a problem with the civ, is that it might not be able to generate enough culture to pick the Industry social policies that it benefits so much before Ideologies hit. Carthage has no inherent advantage when it comes to culture generation.
- Naval units able to cross the ocean (force projection)
- The Industry social policies (better use of gold and trade routes, including internal ones)
- The Big Ben wonder
- Railroad technology
Harbors aren't just about city connection and profitable trade routes, they are also a boost to your naval production and railroad infrastructure. The first matters when you want to have military presence anywhere on the globe, the second matters for the +25%
in your cities while spending less gold (and time) updating your roads into railroads.Carthage is about having a better infrastructure, more gold/hammer potential than most civilizations, while supporting a wide gameplay. Trade routes are both for gold and food/hammers, and having lots of routes help when your empire expands. Having two extra routes in a national Wonder (requiring 20 less population) is essentially a guaranteed Colossus + Petra. As long as you make the most of it, you should have an amazing infrastructure/finance for your empire.
If there's a problem with the civ, is that it might not be able to generate enough culture to pick the Industry social policies that it benefits so much before Ideologies hit. Carthage has no inherent advantage when it comes to culture generation.
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
That's exactly what I meant - just like the vanilla African Forest Elephant has a promotion producing more great generals.
Legen
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2015
- Messages
- 1,444
When you found a coastal city, you get a notification on following turn that you have established a city connection. You also get the money from the city connection. StillSpoiler :
Edit: I can't see the picture without opening it to a new tab. Hopefully it works better for others. Anyway, there is a picture of Utique having unhappiness from isolation. I've got all T1 techs and fishing.
Currently, there are some weird about harbors:
- When connected to your capital with a harbor only, it takes some turns to remove the isolation unhappiness.
- When you research Railroads, a city with a harbor may not automatically receive the +25% railroad modifier if it is connected to the capital through a road. Also, if multuple cities with a harbor are connected among themselves by a road, only one receives the modifier.
This isn't an issue only for Carthage, it also happens to other civs. It is annoying, but particularly disappointing for Carthage, as you'd expect the game to prioritize the harbor over the road.
Currently, there are some weird about harbors:
- When connected to your capital with a harbor only, it takes some turns to remove the isolation unhappiness.
- When you research Railroads, a city with a harbor may not automatically receive the +25%
This isn't an issue only for Carthage, it also happens to other civs. It is annoying, but particularly disappointing for Carthage, as you'd expect the game to prioritize the harbor over the road.
The penalty is from barbarians interrupting the city connection with boats.
G
Legen
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2015
- Messages
- 1,444
It could be in that case, but I've seen it happening consistently, even in cities close to the capital and with sight of the sea between them. It always took some turns before the isolation disappeared.
Stangle Khan
Warlord
So the recent changes to how lighthouses and harbors work are a noticable nerf to Carthage. Coupled with the recent reduction in gold from founding cities, Carthage went from middle of the road to rather weak.
The main issue comes from that the Great Cothon was only really an acceptable unique because the harbors it buffed were in every coastal city. Now though it require building harbors in every city to make it useful. And the +3 production is rather marginal in the first place, it was only good because it buffed new cities getting off the ground. The +2 traderoutes and +2 extra gold per route (and only if they are in the city it was built) maximizes out to about 30 GPT in end game which is usually less than 10% of GPT.
The other issue was that Carthage had this strong advantage because it was getting a building that nobody else got until the late Medieval Era, which was the only way to create city connections over water. Now the building is in the Classical Era which means that other civs get access to Carthage's big bonus (being able to settle across water before anyone else can do so effectively) much sooner.
My suggestion would be to shift the bonus from the Great Cothon from harbors to lighthouses and return the gold bonus to at least it's former state. Alternatively, I think the best option would be to remove the Great Cothon entirely and have a UB, the Cothon, that replaces either lighthouses or harbors. If the UB replaced the lighthouse, it would need to be weaker since it would be free.
EDIT: Compare Carthage's UB to Rome's which comes earlier but is much stronger. And Rome has a stronger UA (although completely different, Carthage's UA is just much weaker now with the changes to lighthouses and Harbors)
The main issue comes from that the Great Cothon was only really an acceptable unique because the harbors it buffed were in every coastal city. Now though it require building harbors in every city to make it useful. And the +3 production is rather marginal in the first place, it was only good because it buffed new cities getting off the ground. The +2 traderoutes and +2 extra gold per route (and only if they are in the city it was built) maximizes out to about 30 GPT in end game which is usually less than 10% of GPT.
The other issue was that Carthage had this strong advantage because it was getting a building that nobody else got until the late Medieval Era, which was the only way to create city connections over water. Now the building is in the Classical Era which means that other civs get access to Carthage's big bonus (being able to settle across water before anyone else can do so effectively) much sooner.
My suggestion would be to shift the bonus from the Great Cothon from harbors to lighthouses and return the gold bonus to at least it's former state. Alternatively, I think the best option would be to remove the Great Cothon entirely and have a UB, the Cothon, that replaces either lighthouses or harbors. If the UB replaced the lighthouse, it would need to be weaker since it would be free.
EDIT: Compare Carthage's UB to Rome's which comes earlier but is much stronger. And Rome has a stronger UA (although completely different, Carthage's UA is just much weaker now with the changes to lighthouses and Harbors)
UB can't be a lighthouse because the lighthouse slot is already taken by the Danes.
Making the UB a unique Harbor, available a bit earlier with either some buffed stats or something clever like +1 <some yield> on all water-tiles, perhaps science or culture.
Making the UB a unique Harbor, available a bit earlier with either some buffed stats or something clever like +1 <some yield> on all water-tiles, perhaps science or culture.
phantomaxl1207
King
The Cothon could buff Lighthouses instead.
Stangle Khan
Warlord
Ah I didn't realize that y'all were avoiding replacing the same buildings for UBs. An earlier harbor would be good. The problem though with +1 yield on water compared to everyone else is it could be really strong. The only ones I could think of being balanced would be food or gold and just maybe production (though that may be a little much). Culture or science would obviously be over the top and faith just wouldn't make sense.
Not necessarily, I mean the Indian UB adds +1 food on all farms (and +1 production on all floodplains). I'm not necessarily comparing farms to water-tiles, but I don't think the idea is that absurd.
Comparing for example a harbor with +1 culture on all water-tiles to the Songhai Tabya, which provides +1 culture on all river-tiles, on average the harbor is going to outperform it, but considering one is in ancient era building and the other is a Medieval era one I don't necessarily see that as that much of a problem. Especially considering culture is a lot more valuable early on.
That being said I'm not married to the idea or anything, so I'm totally open for better suggestions.
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